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Forums > General > Shooting the breeze... > Evolution is true, why your uncle was a monkey.
Author Evolution is true, why your uncle was a monkey.
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WA
874 Posts
Posted 11/7/2011, 11:38 pm        Report
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
WA
596 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 1:41 am        Report
Mobydisc said...
In a way if evolution is for real then perhaps all those scientists who are worried about climate change should not be. If the Earth's climate signifcantly changes because we burn coal and oil to make our life easier, this will create opportunities for new species to take advantage of. So new species will evolve to survive in the ecological places that have been vacated by other species we have killed off through eating, habitat destruction or climate change. In the end evolution will work it all out so why not just keep making a complete mess of the place if that makes our life easier?
Yeah I'm with you Moby. Sounds like you have thought it through. If we work together we can get this climate change thing into overdrive. Crank it right up. Let it be survival of the fittest. Evolution will work and all humans will disappear, permanently. I wonder what weird looking future species will take the opportunity to evolve and survive in a world vacated by an extinct human species? I'd like to say 'The Snorks' but my thought process is leaning towards some type of plankton
QLD
8903 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 7:44 am        Report
barn said... lots and lots of stuff
I guess when you were a child you missed out on breast milk?
WA
2521 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 9:23 am        Report
elbeau said...
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
too much bible school when you were young and influencable
NSW
807 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 9:48 am        Report
elbeau said...
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
What's the basis for your estimate of the probabilities? What are the odds?
NSW
1607 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 9:50 am        Report
poor relative said...
I guess when you were a child you missed out on breast milk?
^^I'll take that as a commet. . OK, tuesdays proof deals with why our ignorance of evolution will lead to the end of the world.. Evolution is more dangerous than climate change. It will be the downfall of the current Ape plague of Biblical proportions. Evolution needs to be understood for the survival of the species. One of the greatest threats to us is increasing resistance of drug resistant strains of infectious disease. We you hear about 'Multi resistant strains' or 'Super Bugs', they are actually talking about an infectious disease that's evolving. Penicillin was once thought to be the solution to all bacterial infections. Then it was misused. They fed it to cows, prescribed it for common colds, and bacteria quickly evolved resistance. We then had to find new Drugs, which is becoming harder and harder. If you begin a course of antibiotics, and don't finish it, you might only kill 99% of the infection. This remaining 1% will have a slight resistance to the drug, repeat this and you will get a 'superbug' that is completely resistant to all our drugs. In loser countries like India, Antibiotics are sold to the masses that often fail to finish their dosage, often sharing one prescription amongst a whole family. India is a factory for Drug resistance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance You can never become immune to the common cold, it continually evolves into new strains. The Swine Flu was just another cold, same with the Bird Flu. Factory farming of Chickens, with billions of chickens living in their own filth, is just as much a factory for infectious disease. Factory farming for disease.. If we can accept that disease becomes resistant to drugs, then we can accept the fact for evolution. Our ignorance of the conditions best suited for the survival of drug resistant pathogens will lead to the next pandemic. The influenza Pandemic of 1918 killed 20 billion worldwide. Maybe a good thing?
QLD
602 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 9:52 am        Report
barn said...
I'm pretty impressed with the overwhelming dislike for this subject. I would like to know the reasons why there has been such an angry response?. I only started it because there were some misconceptions in a recent unrelated thread. It seems the guys who know least about evolution, are the ones who dislike it the most. And judging by the red thumbs, thats everyone!. It's an interesting reflection on the mindset of this forum. Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution. How can people be so hostile towards a fact of science? Is banging on about Haarp doomsday devices more interesting to the average Australian? Can anybody who thinks this is such a sh1t subject explain why?
Barn, evolution through DNA mutation is a simple concept but the consequences and reality of how this leads to evolution are extremely complex to grasp. It is also in direct conflict with most established religous doctrines so a natural scepticsm is going to prevail. I know you are just trying to get the facts across but pushing people won't get them there - especially on this forum I agree with you that evolution is as as close to fact as you can get in scientific theory. The mapping of DNA has multiplied the burden of proof a thousandfold. I find that the biggest problem in the explanations of the process is that when people write about the mechanism of evolution they write in an active rather than passive sense. It is easy to do and I had to rewrite some of below doing the same thing. DNA mutations are active and repetative, but any long term change is passive and dictated by the environment. ie the environment an organism exists in shapes evolution of a species over time, not the DNA mutations, which are random and are not directly influenced by the environment. The harsher the environment the quicker and larger the change as survival truly does come down to the wire. For example you said this: ".....pretty soon there will be competition for resources. This competition, selects the less competitive copies for deletion..." Whilst true it is an anology and suggests there is active will in the "deletion" process, which there is not. I am sure this adds to peoples confusion when trying to understand the process. Most people I talk to incorrectly believe that evolution is some magical active process, not a passive one of simple random mutations and passing those mutations onto offspring. Good mutations help you survive and have more kids (also with that good mutation) than your neighbor, bad ones kill you before you can have offspring. Rinse and repeat this a million times and you have large scale change. What is important is the DNA mutations that provide a very small advantage to an individuals ability to procreate. Survival is important but not the most important advantage, the ability to have as many offspring survive and also procreate with the advantagous DNA is what matters. Most people also think that mutations are big - like someone suddenly growing an additional leg. It does not work like that. Mutations are small, and generally there is only a significant change in a species when there is environmental pressure on a small community and small changes make a big difference over many, many generations. Many people also incorrectly think that evolution effects all members of a species at once. (ie the question on why there are still monkeys). Evolution through DNA mutation effects an individual. That individual passes on it's DNA to it's children, who then contribute more mutations and pass them on. The monkeys that were around when the first monkey had a positive DNA change will either interbreed with the offspring of the original monkey and therefore contribute to slow change, or they will move away and change differently or die out. Change comes from individuals, not whole species. Large changes come from whole generations of a single isolated colony living seperately from others (read up on Madagasca or just take a look around Australia). By the way we did not evolve from monkeys. We have a common ancestor to monkeys, similar to a lemur actually. Don't forget there were at least two close cousins to us that evolved over seperate evolution lines at the same time as humans. Neanderthols and those hobbit people in indonesia. These seperate species experienced environmental pressure and died out before they could change. The environmental pressure could well have been humans killing them off!! This is the norm. You know, I can cope with the possiblity of intelligent design, who knows, but I can't see any recent direct involvement by that entity. If someone or something is at the helm then they designed, fired and forgot sometime before the big bang....good job though, a very robust system.
WA
874 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 2:25 pm        Report
felixdcat said...
elbeau said...
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
too much bible school when you were young and influencable
Ahh Bible school. But that was years ago and I've evolve.....I mean I've grown since then.
VIC
2789 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 2:51 pm        Report
elbeau said...
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
What a nasty god!
NSW
1607 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 3:11 pm        Report
elbeau said...
Ahh Bible school. But that was years ago and I've evolve.....I mean I've grown since then.
Individuals don't evolve. You obviously don't understand any basics of what you are dismissing. I'm curious, what goes through your mind when you see a fossil? are they planted there to test us? What about disease, it's pretty nasty, billions die from it.. How do you reconcile that with a benevolent intelligent designer? Cancer? Volcanoes?
WA
15849 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 3:23 pm        Report
Barn
WA
2521 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 3:30 pm        Report
barn said...
elbeau said...
Ahh Bible school. But that was years ago and I've evolve.....I mean I've grown since then.
Individuals don't evolve. You obviously don't understand any basics of what you are dismissing. I'm curious, what goes through your mind when you see a fossil? are they planted there to test us? What about disease, it's pretty nasty, billions die from it.. How do you reconcile that with a benevolent intelligent designer? Cancer? Volcanoes?
Elbeau must have read P.K. dick's book Simulacres and mixed it up with the bible!......
WA
874 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 3:44 pm        Report
log man said...
elbeau said...
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
What a nasty god!
Can be, oh yeah. You don't know the half of it.
WA
874 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 3:49 pm        Report
SomeOtherGuy said...
elbeau said...
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
What's the basis for your estimate of the probabilities? What are the odds?
Actually there is no estimate of the probabilities or odds really. I just spoke to a friend of mine, Jesus actually, and it appears that all you have to do is believe. Well there you go then. That seems pretty easy.
NSW
6767 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 3:58 pm        Report
Mobydisc said...
In a way if evolution is for real then perhaps all those scientists who are worried about climate change should not be. If the Earth's climate signifcantly changes because we burn coal and oil to make our life easier, this will create opportunities for new species to take advantage of. So new species will evolve to survive in the ecological places that have been vacated by other species we have killed off through eating, habitat destruction or climate change. In the end evolution will work it all out so why not just keep making a complete mess of the place if that makes our life easier?
Nature will be fine. Seriously. It's the humans that won't. That's kinda the point.
NSW
6767 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 3:59 pm        Report
elbeau said...
The fun thing about all this is that, 1 The people that believe in Intelligent design will probably go to a place of love, light and happiness when they die and 2. The people that believe in evolution (when they die) will probably go to a yukky place. There they can spend eternity wishing that they had been a bit smarter.
"I don't believe in anything. Why do you need belief? It is for children. So is hope." - evlPanda
WA
874 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:16 pm        Report
barn said...
elbeau said...
Ahh Bible school. But that was years ago and I've evolve.....I mean I've grown since then.
Individuals don't evolve. You obviously don't understand any basics of what you are dismissing. I'm curious, what goes through your mind when you see a fossil? are they planted there to test us? What about disease, it's pretty nasty, billions die from it.. How do you reconcile that with a benevolent intelligent designer? Cancer? Volcanoes?
Volcanoes??
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:26 pm        Report
barn said...
The influenza Pandemic of 1918 killed 20 billion worldwide. Maybe a good thing?
Struth, considering the population hasn't climbed back past 7 billion yet that must have been quite apocalyptic. I'd hate to see the crowds at my local with a planetary population of +20 billion.
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:31 pm        Report
^^^^ Never mind the pubs, imagine the crowds at your local kite spots!
WA
15849 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:45 pm        Report
GreenPat said...
barn said...
The influenza Pandemic of 1918 killed 20 billion worldwide. Maybe a good thing?
Struth, considering the population hasn't climbed back past 7 billion yet that must have been quite apocalyptic. I'd hate to see the crowds at my local with a planetary population of +20 billion.
barn can type faster than he can think, me thinks.
WA
4430 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:45 pm        Report
GalahOnTheBay said...
^^^^ Never mind the pubs, imagine the crowds at your local kite spots!
Evolution in action in that pic.. Sometime ago they Neandapolers were mucking about in the primordial slime - but have leapt forward, skipping the kitewingapithicus and Southern twolinemagnon stages to evolve in to Gethefaarkoutathewayicuskiteboardicus. Clearly the most evolved water based primate.. just look at the length of their name for proof.
NSW
1607 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:48 pm        Report
GreenPat said...
barn said...
The influenza Pandemic of 1918 killed 20 billion worldwide. Maybe a good thing?
Struth, considering the population hasn't climbed back past 7 billion yet that must have been quite apocalyptic. I'd hate to see the crowds at my local with a planetary population of +20 billion.
Never let a few factors of ten get in the way of a good story.. --- Massive LOL elbeau, love it!.. BTW have you met my best mate dinsdale? you'd get along like a house on fire..
NSW
6401 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:50 pm        Report
Anyone watched Idiocracy?
WA
2521 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 4:51 pm        Report
getfunky said...
GalahOnTheBay said...
^^^^ Never mind the pubs, imagine the crowds at your local kite spots!
Evolution in action in that pic.. Sometime ago they Neandapolers were mucking about in the primordial slime - but have leapt forward, skipping the kitewingapithicus and Southern twolinemagnon stages to evolve in to Gethefaarkoutathewayicuskiteboardicus. Clearly the most evolved water based primate.. just look at the length of their name for proof.
That profanity and blasphemy you will go to that gloomy place with the non believers! You have been warnedD]
WA
874 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 5:22 pm        Report
barn said...
elbeau said...
Ahh Bible school. But that was years ago and I've evolve.....I mean I've grown since then.
Individuals don't evolve. You obviously don't understand any basics of what you are dismissing. I'm curious, what goes through your mind when you see a fossil? are they planted there to test us? What about disease, it's pretty nasty, billions die from it.. How do you reconcile that with a benevolent intelligent designer? Cancer? Volcanoes?
Barn, I like you. Anyone that has strong views that are properly researched and is willing to stand up for them in public has a lot going for them in my book. I predict that if you keep searching that you will become deeply religious in time. I will answer your two questions but that's it. Research shows that we choose the evidence that supports our belief even after being shown concrete evidence to the contrary. I can't convince you. You have to come to it yourself. Question one. The fossils. I don't know where they came from. I can conjecture but that is all. How could I do otherwise? As a matter of fact how can any of us do otherwise? At least I won't present my conjecture as fact. There is a passage in the Bible about a day being a thousand years and a thousand years being a day to God. (2 Peter 3.8 ) Therefore I guess it is possible that the seven days of creation may have been seven thousand years. And the time from creation to now could theoretically be millions of years. Who knows (actually God knows) what He created over time. As we well know there is attrition and species die off. Fossils are possibly some of those. This is only conjecture. Question 2. Suffering, disease etc. Now I have more knowledge in this area. Having worked in a hospital environment for over 30 years I have had the opportunity to talk to many people that are at the end of their life. I also have had the opportunity to talk to people that have died clinically (heart attack etc) and then been resuscitated. The latter often (and I mean often. It isn't a rare phenomena) speak of leaving their bodies at the time of death and traveling through a tunnel at high speed till they reach a light. The light emits love,joy and peace. The patients describe it as being like falling in love for the first time,Christmas and all the best times they have experienced magnified a thousand times. They are then shown a life review where their life is shown them. Interestingly enough if they were thieves for instance and had given up stealing then the incidence of the theft wasn't shown to them. Following the review they are generally ALL told the same phrase. It is. "Your work isn't finished yet" They then find themselves back in the hospital being defibrillated or recovering in some way. Science has had a good look at this phenomena and various explanations have been given. Everything from drug induced psychosis to hypoxia. These explanations don't explain however the fact that patients can relate conversations taking place up the corridor behind a closed door between the patients wife and a Doctor. It doesn't explain why patients can name and describe things they couldn't know unless they actually had floated up the corridor as they said they did. There are commonalities in the experience from different patients. The phrase about their work not being finished is common as is the idea that we are here on earth to learn two things.The two things are these. That we are here to learn to love. Secondly we are here to learn. Just learn. Get knowledge. And it is shown them that the best lessons, the strongest learning comes from hardship. That the lessons learned when we are cold, hungry, lonely, sick are the ones that stay with us. (by the way without doubt the best health care workers, Doctors, nurses etc are the ones that have been sick and suffered themselves) Cruel you might think that God would let us learn that way yet there is also another phenomena commonly reported by patients in traumatic situations. Car accident victims talk of being disembodied as the car rolls. The say it is like they are standing watching from the side. Like they aren't even there. People being tortured speak of hearing someone screaming only to realise it is them. They become so disembodied by the pain it is like they stand aside from themselves. The people I meet at the end of their life that have suffered often display the attributes of humility, selflessness, kindness. Conversely the people that have been cocooned by wealth for instance from the hardship of life often are rude, demanding and arrogant. I won't generalise because there are exceptions of course but it appears a common trend. Good luck in your search for knowledge Barn. "There are two mistakes one can make along the road to truth…not going all the way, and not starting" Ascribed to The Buddha
WA
386 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 5:30 pm        Report
Bullocks. if your 'god' was so great and loving, why would he let little children and babies suffer. what lessons do they learn when starving in some ****ty refugee camp in Africa? if there is a god, he has failed miserably.
NSW
6767 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 5:31 pm        Report
...speak of leaving their bodies and traveling through a tunnel at high speed till they reach a light. The light emits love, joy and peace. The patients describe it as being like falling in love for the first time, Christmas and all the best times they have experienced magnified a thousand times.
I've been raving too.
NSW
1607 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 5:50 pm        Report
Thanks for the reply elbeau, A good insight into another perspective. Sorry about trying to introduce you to my mate dinsdale, he is much more stubborn, and won't go into detail about what he thinks. The reason I got a chuckle from your comments was imagining a 'nice place' where everyone who died and ignored the fossils could sit around having a lovely time, while all the poor dead Biologists and Geologists had to spend time in hell for eternity!! tough break!! I was planning on talking about E.Coli tomorrow, but maybe I will talk about Radioactive dating and how old the universe is.
WA
874 Posts
Posted 12/7/2011, 5:54 pm        Report
barn said...
Thanks for the reply elbeau, A good insight into another perspective. Sorry about trying to introduce you to my mate dinsdale, he is much more stubborn, and won't go into detail about what he thinks. The reason I got a chuckle from your comments was imagining a 'nice place' where everyone who died and ignored the fossils could sit around having a lovely time, while all the poor dead Biologists and Geologists had to spend time in hell for eternity!! tough break!! I was planning on talking about E.Coli tomorrow, but maybe I will talk about Radioactive dating and how old the universe is.
Posted 12/7/2011, 6:24 pm        Report
GalahOnTheBay said...
^^^^ Never mind the pubs, imagine the crowds at your local kite spots!
I was talking about my local kite spot. I never mentioned pubs. You, sir, might just be a dipsomaniac.
 
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