This is the first time I've heard of a race winner getting DQ'd for drafting (...probably the first time I've heard of anyone getting DQ'd for it?).
Julianne Brackett was the first female over the line at the weekend's Thunderbird Run on Lake Tahoe. But she spent a bit of time behind one of the guys, and seeing it was a WPA (World Paddle Assoc.) sanctioned event, she got disqualified.
Posted a bit more info on the blog: http://www.supracer.com/thunderbird-run-sup-race-winner-disqualified-for-drafting/
What do you think? Good call? Bad call? Ruining racing or entirely necessary?
Total Bullsh!t IMHO , in every other ocean/still water event it's allowed. Why is this so different. Totally agree with the JT video. (Great interview Chris BTW)
Hmmm, I don't race at all so I guess this is an outsiders view a bit, but anyway.
I drafting within a category, no problem. It should even be promoted like cycling etc.
However when a lady uses a faster guy, or a masters div racer use a young guy to gain an advantage that may not be so cool. This might have the potential to end up with people in some classes foregoing thier position to "help" people in other classes. To me that wouldn't make for great competition at all.
As per the outrigger unwritten rules. Wash riding behind same craft or competitor in the same race is fine. More than fine, great even.
BUT taking advantage of faster craft or categories is against the spirit of the race. This takes it to another level by disqualification but I am sure if you were there it would have been obvious that she gained unfair advantage by her actions.
Absolutely bull**** call by the organisers and a bad rule by WPA.
As we have seen many times, the best Women and the best Masters and the best 12'6" paddlers are often superior to many racing in the Elite category and they are in fact racing for outright position in the race. As an example, in the QLD State Titles marathon video, Jacko could be seen on his 12'6" drafting a 14' board leading into the turn at the bridge. Coming out of the turn, he was in front. Technically Jacko was in a different category, but in reality, he is racing for outright position.
Also, why should someone like Candace Appleby or in this case Julianne Brackett have to paddle out on her own while inferior Men can sit in a draft train and go past?
WPA... get stuffed.
PTWoody said... Absolutely bull**** call by the organisers and a bad rule by WPA.
As we have seen many times, the best Women and the best Masters and the best 12'6" paddlers are often superior to many racing in the Elite category and they are in fact racing for outright position in the race. As an example, in the QLD State Titles marathon video, Jacko could be seen on his 12'6" drafting a 14' board leading into the turn at the bridge. Coming out of the turn, he was in front. Technically Jacko was in a different category, but in reality, he is racing for outright position.
Also, why should someone like Candace Appleby or in this case Julianne Brackett have to paddle out on her own while inferior Men can sit in a draft train and go past?
WPA... get stuffed.
Actually PT Woody, Jacko was not in a different class. He was racing in the 14' category on a 12'6. His result in my mind puts him a different class, of paddler that is.
If he was in the 12'6 class being dragged up the creek by 14'ers that would have been bull%^&.
CMC said...
Actually PT Woody, Jacko was not in a different class. He was racing in the 14' category on a 12'6. His result in my mind puts him a different class, of paddler that is.
If he was in the 12'6 class being dragged up the creek by 14'ers that would have been bull%^&.
Yeah I get the subtle technicality there and also the fact that the QLD State Titles are not run under WPA rules so the point is moot. But in a strictly head-to-head sense, and just for the sake of the exercise, imagine Jacko was entered in a different category. He pulled off a terrific bit of race craft by drafting and then diving inside on the turn, and any rule that undermines that sort of skill is rubbish.
But besides all that, how is one supposed to determine whether the person in front is in the Open class or Masters? And without a tape measure, how can you be certain if you are sitting behind a 12'6" board or a 14' board? And who among us has not caught a fleeting glimpse of sexy, lycra clad curvaceous hips and legs before realising it's a dude? Anyone? Anyone?
PTWoody said...
Also, why should someone like Candace Appleby or in this case Julianne Brackett have to paddle out on her own while inferior Men can sit in a draft train and go past?
This happened to Karen Wrenn a couple of weeks back in Oregon. She followed the rules and had to paddle on her own, even though she was way ahead of the nearest female and therefore competing more with the men than the women.
This pic summed it up...
if you think you are that good and deserve to be coming in ahead of everyone else, then paddle it yourself so that no-one will ever doubt that you are the best!!
on a side point, some boards give a 2foot wake while others can hardly be wash ridden, would you guys still call that a fair advantage open to everyone??????
Yes Chris, that Karen Wren situation was a disgrace. I can't help thinking that some of the calls for banning drafting outside of category are motivated by blokes concerned about being beaten by a woman.
I'd like to hear what some of the female racers have to say about this matter.
I think it really depends on the race rules - if they say were not allowed to draft the guys then don't do it!!!
If there's no rule then everyone is in the same boat and I don't think you can stop it - especially where the top girl(s) might be racing for line honours as well - why shouldn't the girls be able to compete on the same level as the guys in this situation!
Technically you could be concerned that a guy might throw in his race to help a female paddler win theirs but in a lot of the biggest international races, the first female paddler is often finishing around 15-20th (sometimes better) in a field of 100 guys, and most (not all) of the guys good enough to be in the top 20 probably want to race for themselves.
With the elite/surf races I like the fact that some major events are now splitting the guys and girls and running them separately so there's no chance to get a free ride from someone in another division!
Here's something else to think about... in the Qld titles distance race I was on my own for the whole 9km flatwater paddle (I didn't catch any of the boys in front and no-one from behind caught me) so didn't have an option, but when I turned at the halfway point and headed back, there were men sitting on the wash of some of the other girls - so it's not just the girls getting an advantage all the time!
This is why I don't do competitions. As soon as tactics and strategies come into a racing discipline you get cheating. As soon as you try to make a rule to stop it then you get somebody trying to take advantage of that rule. ie. more cheating.
Drafting as part of the cut and thrust of racing is fine.
Drafting to get an advantage over a competitor is not fine.
Drafting stronger competitors or bigger craft in a mixed field is often unavoidable so can be fine. Drafting to gain an advantage over others in your class is cheating.
Imagine a woman competitor on a 12'6" board with a team of guys on 14' boards all working together.
It's really simple to describe and everyone intuitively knows what is right and what is not. But in every race fleet where there is a chance to cheat then cheating is done.
The example of drafting in cycling is both a good and bad example. You get teams drafting their guy up to the front and he wins. Meanwhile their domestiques are riding to interfere with the other teams. You get Cadel Evans calling for other guys to lead out on climbs but they just let him do the work knowing that his team mates are held back in the pack. Cheating.
Ali Cat said... I think it really depends on the race rules - if they say were not allowed to draft the guys then don't do it!!!
If there's no rule then everyone is in the same boat and I don't think you can stop it - especially where the top girl(s) might be racing for line honours as well - why shouldn't the girls be able to compete on the same level as the guys in this situation!
Technically you could be concerned that a guy might throw in his race to help a female paddler win theirs but in a lot of the biggest international races, the first female paddler is often finishing around 15-20th (sometimes better) in a field of 100 guys, and most (not all) of the guys good enough to be in the top 20 probably want to race for themselves.
With the elite/surf races I like the fact that some major events are now splitting the guys and girls and running them separately so there's no chance to get a free ride from someone in another division!
Here's something else to think about... in the Qld titles distance race I was on my own for the whole 9km flatwater paddle (I didn't catch any of the boys in front and no-one from behind caught me) so didn't have an option, but when I turned at the halfway point and headed back, there were men sitting on the wash of some of the other girls - so it's not just the girls getting an advantage all the time!
I think you are referring to the guys sitting on my wash ali? Yes i agree if a rule has been set by WPA then everyone should adhear to it.
It's a very tricky subject but rules are rules.
In the flat water section of the recent QLD Titles i had men on my wash for atleast 6km's and not once did they try and get past me (not gonna name names), so instead i put in some more effort and pulled away towards to the end. I believe it's just part of our racing sport, i think just deal with.
Not once did i turn around and tell them to get off my wash, i couldn't care less if they sit behind. I take it as a compliment if a male paddler wants to wash ride me, its no biggy.
There was one race i can remember a few years ago overseas that i was at. A certain female had been dragged the whole distance by one of the local male paddlers so they could make her win the $, this i believe is wrong but there were no rules set so who can argue it.
However if they are gonna make to a rule that a Female can't draft a Male then it has to be visa versa aswell, it's only fair .
Look forward to some more reply's on this.
XX Angie
So in a flat water race, if a competitor picks up a bit of wind chop and rides it for lets say 10-15m is that cheating? He is getting an adavntage over the others by beeing in the right place at the right time. The same could be said for drafting.
Lets say DJ gets drafted by Gorgo. Gorgo gets past but then DJ has the advantage. Then DJ rather than passing Gorgo he sits behind him until 20-30m before the finish and then drafts Gorgo for the win.
Is that cheating? Imo it isnt and drafting has been in motorsports for ever and is seen as good race tactics.
My 2c
It all depends on the direction paddle racing is to head in the future.
Do you want the cycling type teams scenario, or even marathon running where it is normal for drafting and pacing to occur? In some instances in marathon running teams of pacers get sent out to help the eventual winner over the line in record times. This is not only allowed, but the strength of the pace team applauded at some events.
Also, why should someone like Candace Appleby or in this case Julianne Brackett have to paddle out on her own while inferior Men can sit in a draft train and go past?
To this end, if the guys are all part of the same class then such is racing. But what about a case where Candice is on her own for much of the race and Julianne cruses past on the wake of a faster paddler to take the win?
Now what if this became standard practice, and say a paddler went into a race knowing that he or she could at best get a top 10 finish in their own class, but knew that with some drafting and pace assistance they could get a good friend/partner/team mate over the line in their class for the win. Sounds unlikely? at this stage it might be, but now lets add that there is a commercial/financial advantage for both of these people if one were to win. Big prize money, sponsorships, commercial arrangements, these will all creep into racing or get larger as the sport gets even bigger and then the temptation grows.
doggie said... So in a flat water race, if a competitor picks up a bit of wind chop and rides it for lets say 10-15m is that cheating? He is getting an adavntage over the others by beeing in the right place at the right time. The same could be said for drafting.
Nope, using your natural surroundings to advantage is just good tactics. And it is a tactic that is available to everyone. Just like finding the good wind in sailing, or the clean dry line in motor racing.
Lets say DJ gets drafted by Gorgo. Gorgo gets past but then DJ has the advantage. Then DJ rather than passing Gorgo he sits behind him until 20-30m before the finish and then drafts Gorgo for the win.
Is that cheating? Imo it isnt and drafting has been in motorsports for ever and is seen as good race tactics.
If they are all in the same class, nope not cheating, good tactics. But if they are in complete different classes, the guy on a smaller board could use guys on a bigger board to advantage. It would be like a 2lt tourer drafting a V8 super car in the same race and using that to advantage to win over another 2lt, and doing things like set race records that wouldn't otherwise be possible. (Haven't seen that since the old mixed class days of Bathurst)
doggie said... So in a flat water race, if a competitor picks up a bit of wind chop and rides it for lets say 10-15m is that cheating? He is getting an adavntage over the others by beeing in the right place at the right time. The same could be said for drafting.
Nope, using your natural surroundings to advantage is just good tactics. And it is a tactic that is available to everyone. Just like finding the good wind in sailing, or the clean dry line in motor racing.
Lets say DJ gets drafted by Gorgo. Gorgo gets past but then DJ has the advantage. Then DJ rather than passing Gorgo he sits behind him until 20-30m before the finish and then drafts Gorgo for the win.
Is that cheating? Imo it isnt and drafting has been in motorsports for ever and is seen as good race tactics.
If they are all in the same class, nope not cheating, good tactics. But if they are in complete different classes, the guy on a smaller board could use guys on a bigger board to advantage. It would be like a 2lt tourer drafting a V8 super car in the same race and using that to advantage to win over another 2lt, and doing things like set race records that wouldn't otherwise be possible. (Haven't seen that since the old mixed class days of Bathurst)
Only thing I can say to that is have the different classes in seperate races.
But wouldnt the bigger board have an advantage of length and glide therfore negating the smaller boards advantage of drafting? Once the smaller board is infront he would have to work harder than the longer board.
In motor sport when they race two different classes together, if a lower class can gain advantage from a bigger faster class they can. There isnt anything to stop them.
Not once did i turn around and tell them to get off my wash, i couldn't care less if they sit behind. I take it as a compliment if a male paddler wants to wash ride me, its no biggy.
XX Angie
Angie, doesnt it mean if they are sitting behind you, you are doing more work.
Seriously wont ever effect me, I cant keep up with the guys at the front, and there is rarely(read never) anyone behind me, see page 26 of the latest Supworld for example (you cant miss me )
BTW super pic of you on the front cover............
Greg
ShireSUP said...
Angie, doesnt it mean if they are sitting behind you, you are doing more work.
Not really, Angie's doing as much work as she would otherwise be, the fact that she's being drafted doesn't make any material, physical difference to her (but it might piss her off enough to make her work harder, I don't know Angie's temperament to comment on that ). The one drafting is doing a little bit less work to achieve the same speed (assuming he/she is doing it right). Slightly different thing.
ShireSUP said...
Seriously wont ever effect me, I cant keep up with the guys at the front, and there is rarely(read never) anyone behind me
You say that now mate...a few more of those 10kay efforts and some early morning sprint intervals...
doggie said... So in a flat water race, if a competitor picks up a bit of wind chop and rides it for lets say 10-15m is that cheating? He is getting an adavntage over the others by beeing in the right place at the right time. The same could be said for drafting.
Lets say DJ gets drafted by Gorgo. Gorgo gets past but then DJ has the advantage. Then DJ rather than passing Gorgo he sits behind him until 20-30m before the finish and then drafts Gorgo for the win.
Is that cheating? Imo it isnt and drafting has been in motorsports for ever and is seen as good race tactics.
My 2c
Are you getting the Sup bug doggie ? Good to see you taking an interest. Come on doggie, don't worry what your sb mates will say. I reckon a pic of you on a Sup would be priceless.
doggie said... So in a flat water race, if a competitor picks up a bit of wind chop and rides it for lets say 10-15m is that cheating? He is getting an adavntage over the others by beeing in the right place at the right time. The same could be said for drafting.
Lets say DJ gets drafted by Gorgo. Gorgo gets past but then DJ has the advantage. Then DJ rather than passing Gorgo he sits behind him until 20-30m before the finish and then drafts Gorgo for the win.
Is that cheating? Imo it isnt and drafting has been in motorsports for ever and is seen as good race tactics.
My 2c
Are you getting the Sup bug doggie ? Good to see you taking an interest. Come on doggie, don't worry what your sb mates will say. I reckon a pic of you on a Sup would be priceless.
Na mate I just think the rules as far as this goes is gay. If someone is smart enough to draft at the right point in a race regardless of class should win.
They have been doing it in car racing for as long as Ive been interested in it.
Just for you Scotty, Ments 09
As Lacey said it's wash riding not drafting , so you can still have an advantage off to the side. What are you supposed to do in a race when a bunch of paddlers converge on a turning bouy you can't help but get in behind or sit on the side. Where do you draw the line . What do you do when a boat cruises past the field and puts a wake through the all the racers.
If you are on a 12-6 and have put yourself in a position where you have caught up or managed to stay with a 14 and can sit on his wake ...good one you , same goes for the girls if she can tackle it with the blokes and hang in there , good on her.
Watch the clubbies in the surf life saving races they are all masters of the wash ride and race in single file until the wave zone. Why does Sup have to be so different ?
If they don't want drafting should start the different board sizes at different times or wear different color jeresy's to identify classes. Probably would be boring.
I think drafting adds excitement to the race where there is more racers bunched up then strategy comes into play. I bet the race this girl was disqualified at there was tons of drafting that they did not see from other racers. If they are going to enforce drafting the judges should follow every racer in the field and we will see how many racers finish........
Ali Cat said... I think it really depends on the race rules - if they say were not allowed to draft the guys then don't do it!!!
but when I turned at the halfway point and headed back, there were men sitting on the wash of some of the other girls - so it's not just the girls getting an advantage all the time!
I think you are referring to the guys sitting on my wash ali? Yes i agree if a rule has been set by WPA then everyone should adhear to it.
It's a very tricky subject but rules are rules.
In the flat water section of the recent QLD Titles i had men on my wash for atleast 6km's and not once did they try and get past me (not gonna name names), so instead i put in some more effort and pulled away towards to the end. I believe it's just part of our racing sport, i think just deal with.
Not once did i turn around and tell them to get off my wash, i couldn't care less if they sit behind. I take it as a compliment if a male paddler wants to wash ride me, its no biggy.
XX Angie
I can't remember men as a plural riding Angie's wash because I was the only one.
We come in at the alley I am behind Angie, I catch a wave she doesn't...
So we start to paddle the flat water section and I am let's say 100/150 mtr in front.
She comes back to me in around 2km and I was pretty impressed! Ali was in front of me and I was not losing on her.
So I get behind Angie and very soon I realise than I am not in a fantastic day so I stay in her wash for much longer than I would have thought. But if she made 150 mtr back that quickly on me, one could have guessed than it wouldn't be any good for her to stay behind me.
1 km before the bridge I tried to go on the side and we stayed side by side for some time and obviously I would not bring her any help in front as I can't pass her. So we arrive at the bridge, and after the turn she pulls away.
If I need to apologise let me know.
I am not even a surfing queensland member because I live in NSW so doing the long course was not bringing me anything as I could not qualify anyway. I just did the long course for training purpose.
Maybe I should have looked for glory in the over 40 unlimited short course instead....
Angie on the other hand was trying to win her class for the QLD title so it was a bit different for her as she had no choice but to push hard if she wanted to get Ali.
But if I had been able to that day, I would have taken my turns in front.
Some days you can some days you can't.
I was really impressed with her paddling that day but I would have never thought that me being behind her could have been an issue for anybody.....
Maybe that's why I definitely prefer downwinding.
Piros said... As Lacey said it's wash riding not drafting , so you can still have an advantage off to the side. What are you supposed to do in a race when a bunch of paddlers converge on a turning bouy you can't help but get in behind or sit on the side. Where do you draw the line . What do you do when a boat cruises past the field and puts a wake through the all the racers.
If you are on a 12-6 and have put yourself in a position where you have caught up or managed to stay with a 14 and can sit on his wake ...good one you , same goes for the girls if she can tackle it with the blokes and hang in there , good on her.
Watch the clubbies in the surf life saving races they are all masters of the wash ride and race in single file until the wave zone. Why does Sup have to be so different ?
I think you are referring to the guys sitting on my wash ali? Yes i agree if a rule has been set by WPA then everyone should adhear to it.
It's a very tricky subject but rules are rules.
In the flat water section of the recent QLD Titles i had men on my wash for atleast 6km's and not once did they try and get past me (not gonna name names), so instead i put in some more effort and pulled away towards to the end. I believe it's just part of our racing sport, i think just deal with.
Not once did i turn around and tell them to get off my wash, i couldn't care less if they sit behind. I take it as a compliment if a male paddler wants to wash ride me, its no biggy.
Look forward to some more reply's on this.
XX Angie
Sorry Angie i don't know you and don't want to offend but maybe they just liked the look of your back side
Seriously good on ya for showing them up
I agree.. Very harsh.. unless they made it very clear to everyone before the start.
DJ
I'd like to hear what some of the female racers have to say about this matter.
if a male paddler wants to wash ride me, its no biggy.
There was one race i can remember a few years ago overseas that i was at. A certain female had been dragged the whole distance by one of the local male paddlers so they could make her win the $, this i believe is wrong but there were no rules set so who can argue it.
However if they are gonna make to a rule that a Female can't draft a Male then it has to be visa versa aswell, it's only fair 
.
Look forward to some more reply's on this.
XX Angie
Seriously wont ever effect me, I cant keep up with the guys at the front, and there is rarely(read never) anyone behind me, see page 26 of the latest Supworld for example 
(you cant miss me 
)
BTW super pic of you on the front cover............
Greg
