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Forums > SUP > Stand Up Paddle Boarding > The grumpy old men of seabreeze thread
Author The grumpy old men of seabreeze thread
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VIC
671 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 8:55 am        Report
Well...... both Woody and Adapt have suggested the Queensland Titles thread be left for those who want to discuss the event. Fair call. Look at this as an opportunity to comment on the state of play in the National SUP competition scene and I'm happy to kick it off. First up we should acknowledge the great job that Surfing Australia is doing in promoting the sport. But, this is a two way street, Surfing Oz need us just as much as we need them. Potential numbers down the track, specifically in the flat water and BOP style disciplines is astronomic if the numbers in the U.S. are anything to go by. My point, and I am getting to it, is that the governing body seems to have a skewed vision of the demographic. How many teens and twenty somethings ride SUP as compared to crusty old farts like myself. Reckon you'll find the ods fall well and truly on my side of forty. Why then does'nt the state of play at the Nationals reflect that. Having a division that consists of two heats is a freakin joke! Even the Alaia and trad single fins get a better crack than that. As for contacting my State Branch...been there done that. Contacted the National and NSW branch as well but the underlying message was, that it is what it is. With just two days to run all the SUP divisions (therein lays the problem) it would be impossible to run the Over 40s as anything but a two heat wonder. As for the other stuff, or more specifically surfing in somebody elses State Titles......geez, you'd hate to get knocked by someone from another State. What would be good would be if as well as the State qualifying round, each State had a seperate open division in which the State qualifiers got to go head to head with all comers, sort of a mini tour. Would make for some interesting match ups I reckon! At the end of the day I am thankfull that we have well run State and National Titles, whats the old saying about baby steps. My problem is I love to compete and I love to surf, not everyones cuppa and nor should it be! Vented now, feel much better....time for a Bex and a good lay down Cheers Sparx
VIC
12752 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 9:02 am        Report
We need an over 50 class IMO. DJ
VIC
671 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 9:08 am        Report
As you might have gathered, the Queen hasn't come good with anything surfable down this end of Vicco for her birthday weekend thus far!! Cheers Sparx
VIC
1183 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 9:15 am        Report
thats good DJ and Sparx, must be onshore down there? Given the "newness" of the sport an old formula used in other disciplines may not be the way forward, the age demographic of Sup is older and should be catered for, never competed before but found I wanted to get involved at the Vicco's states, getting fit and maintaining fitness enough to be inspired to achieve, now with no where to go in my age group I may as well deflate the enthusiasm and just drift off.... and do my own thing, but I actually enjoyed the event, I think there would be more of my age group involvement if the opportunity arises, just on the comp there were prizes given out for all 4 in the final, no need for that, winner and runner up, thats it, eliminates a fair amount of time and cost and also limit the doubling up of multiple entries in order to allow for another division? Having said that the event was extremely well run and highly recommended for the good spirit and camaraderie. sorry, I am not grumpy, just like to put forward a viewpoint from my perspective
VIC
671 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 9:32 am        Report
Agree with DJ and well said Oc Not grumpy either, although a bit of sunshine and surf would certainly put a smile on my dial!! Cheers Sparx
VIC
1542 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 10:12 am        Report
DavidJohn said...
We need an over 50 class IMO. DJ
Agreed. Anecdotally at least, the 50+ crew represent a large and growing chunk of the SUP numbers. I'm thinking about flat water competition, not surf and (much as I hate to admit it), with a few exceptions there's a big difference between 40 and 50.
3031 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 10:29 am        Report
If you have an over 50 class then there wouldn't be anybody left for the other classes.
TAS
2768 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 10:36 am        Report
Hey 45 is the new 50 so buggaroff with the 50s division (for 2 more years anyway) As for surf - we have plenty and it was so glassy this morning with not a breath of wind.
VIC
3324 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 12:23 pm        Report
As mentioned previously, the big danger of introducing Over 50s is cannibalising the Over 40s category and creating two separate categories with not enough entrants to make either particualrly competitive. If we are adding or changing divisions, my preference would be to have Over 40 and then Over 55 just so that the Over 40 category doesn't end up being 5 people. If there is only the capacity at present for a single age division, then maybe split the difference and make it Over 45. Or even better, Over 46. Regarding the open invitation of interstate competitors to state titles events, I think it would be a massive backward step for the recent Southern Cross Festival of SUP (which doubled as the NSW state titles) to have to exclude Queenslanders and anyone else who wants to come. That event was well supported by sponsors, both inside and outside the industry, and that was on the basis of it being a big national event with a future. If you force Surfing NSW to block visitors, the event shrinks. As I am not a surfer, and only compete in racing, I don't see the problem with people from interstate traveling to compete. I think it's great to have the best racers to compete against as often as possible. The interstate entry thing must be a surfing issue. I've never heard anyone in racing have a problem with it.
QLD
652 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 12:44 pm        Report
VIC
671 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 12:55 pm        Report
Thats me on the left! Cheers Sparx
QLD
652 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 1:28 pm        Report
I hear what you are all saying but unfortunately there is more to SUP then the over 40's population. Yes this demographic may have the greatest involvement in the sport but are you promoting it in a positive way to other age groups or are you just try to hold onto some former self forefill glory that feeds your ego's. Where do you stop with the age catergory thing? Some older guy that use to be great in his 50's then turns around and goes it's not fair because now I'm in my 60's. Lets face it we are all getting older from the day we enter this world, there are peaks in human performance for different activities (normally between 20 -35 years) and we should except this. As older sportsmen/women we should be happy to still be pushing the boundaries on our personal best paddle times or heat scores, be happy enough to pass on our knowledge and skills to a younger generation, thus promoting the sport to them and when it becomes to risky to have all these new competitors in a single event, you'll find for safety reasons you may get your over 50's cause there are to many people in the opens and over 40's. What do I want to see for the sport and from the sports current governing body? At this stage more promotion to the younger generation to get them involved in this great sport (wish it was around when I was younger), an increase in events with support from sponsers, more training camps to increase the performance of all levels of participation in the sport and as time goes on I'm sure I'll think of more. Keep it about the stoke of the sport!
VIC
1542 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 1:47 pm        Report
Adapt said...
I hear what you are all saying but unfortunately there is more to SUP then the over 40's population. Yes this demographic may have the greatest involvement in the sport but are you promoting it in a positive way to other age groups or are you just try to hold onto some former self forefill glory that feeds your ego's.
This is just about blokes (and ladies) who aren't ready to lay down just yet, who get at least some of their stoke from competition and testing themselves against their peers and like or not, there are a lot of over 50's in sport. You wouldn't pitch juniors in against seasoned adults in their peak, would you?
Adapt said...
What do I want to see for the sport and from the sports current governing body? At this stage more promotion to the younger generation to get them involved in this great sport
Locally at least, we're starting up a juniors pilot program, nothing would please us more than for it to succeed. This and an older comp division aren't mutually exclusive, are they?
Adapt said...
Keep it about the stoke of the sport!
Yep, pretty sure that's the point.
QLD
3702 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 1:56 pm        Report
Here's my take on it:- For racing anybody should be to able to compete from all states it's so easy to do the count back for who qualifies for the host state. For surfing different story especially if there is sudden death heats. So yes for racing NO for surfing. Age groups Surfing; 45 is the mark .I turn 50 next year so it's not about me. 50 would be too thin to fill the category and for guys in their mid to late 40's (which there is plenty off) who just can't match it with the rising super groms. Age Group Racing: Different story again you only need a few to make an age category so 40 , 45 , 50 & 55+ is possible. All in the same race. Classes for racing; This is my very humble opinion , drop unlimited and just use 14's fixed rudder (Flame suit on) let's face it the 14's really are suited more to our conditions. BOP take it up to 14 but only the one class It would make it so simple this way to run all the different age classes. Plus this way you can get away with only owning one board and if you want to run a 12-6 you still can , the 14 would not be as good in a BOP but at least you can still compete. The 17's are more for days when everything is right (wind and swell) and unfortunately on race day that rarely happens (in Aus) , so just go out and have fun on them.Plenty of people own 17's and don't compete.Transporting 17's to all the different races is also very difficult and expensive.
QLD
Tanzania
11361 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 2:43 pm        Report
all classes ,all ages, hell even an over sixties. you have them and they will fill up eventually. look at the supsa races, 12 towers- over 60 paddlers, next one- creek to creek- over ninety. WHY- BECAUSE THEY RUN 12'6, 14 AND UNLIMITED- MENS AND WOMENS AND ALL AGES AND CLASSES AND OVER 40 AND OVER 50. the success of theses races speaks for its self- people want it. cheers
Vatican City
4214 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 2:51 pm        Report
laceys lane said...
all classes ,all ages, hell even an over sixties. you have them and they will fill up eventually. look at the supsa races, 12 towers- over 60 paddlers, next one- creek to creek- over ninety. WHY- BECAUSE THEY RUN 12'6, 14 AND UNLIMITED- MENS AND WOMENS AND ALL AGES AND CLASSES AND OVER 40 AND OVER 50. the success of theses races speaks for its self- people want it. cheers
Bingo. "If you build it, they will come".
QLD
652 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 2:58 pm        Report
HumanCartoon said...
Adapt said...
I hear what you are all saying but unfortunately there is more to SUP then the over 40's population. Yes this demographic may have the greatest involvement in the sport but are you promoting it in a positive way to other age groups or are you just try to hold onto some former self forefill glory that feeds your ego's.
This is just about blokes (and ladies) who aren't ready to lay down just yet, who get at least some of their stoke from competition and testing themselves against their peers and like or not, there are a lot of over 50's in sport. You wouldn't pitch juniors in against seasoned adults in their peak, would you?
I think you guys are a few to many steps ahead at times, the sport isn't that big in our country yet to have so many catergories, yeah fight it out amongst your peers, you know their ages or can at least guess. If it's going to boost your ego's have your own little competition inside of the major event. For me I'm just trying to beat my own time and catch the guy/girl in front anything else is a bonus.
QLD
3702 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 2:59 pm        Report
The other option would be be to drop the unlimited class size to 14+......... this is not about a boost you ego thing it's about encouraging people to compete , that's why the Masters Games in Australia is so massive they run categories in 5 year slots from 35 to 90+.
QLD
652 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 3:04 pm        Report
laceys lane said...
all classes ,all ages, hell even an over sixties. you have them and they will fill up eventually. look at the supsa races, 12 towers- over 60 paddlers, next one- creek to creek- over ninety. WHY- BECAUSE THEY RUN 12'6, 14 AND UNLIMITED- MENS AND WOMENS AND ALL AGES AND CLASSES AND OVER 40 AND OVER 50. the success of theses races speaks for its self- people want it. cheers
Don't forget the entry fee, the accessability for all types of individuals with different skill levels to compete
QLD
652 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 3:36 pm        Report
laceys lane said...
Adapt said...
HumanCartoon said...
Adapt said...
I hear what you are all saying but unfortunately there is more to SUP then the over 40's population. Yes this demographic may have the greatest involvement in the sport but are you promoting it in a positive way to other age groups or are you just try to hold onto some former self forefill glory that feeds your ego's.
This is just about blokes (and ladies) who aren't ready to lay down just yet, who get at least some of their stoke from competition and testing themselves against their peers and like or not, there are a lot of over 50's in sport. You wouldn't pitch juniors in against seasoned adults in their peak, would you?
I think you guys are a few to many steps ahead at times, the sport isn't that big in our country yet to have so many catergories, yeah fight it out amongst your peers, you know their ages or can at least guess. If it's going to boost your ego's have your own little competition inside of the major event. For me I'm just trying to beat my own time and catch the guy/girl in front anything else is a bonus.
i don't understand where you are coming from. you are commenting about racing. racing is all about ego. then you want to knock down those that have an ego. if you want to better your time well good, but most are there to RACE other paddlers
Here's the angle I'm coming from and the use of the word ego may have been a bad choice of word. At the end of it all the comments were made about having an over 50's division clearly there are alot of over 50's commenting on this, what I'm getting at is if you want age divisions where does it stop? If you go up every division by a 5yr age gap saying our oldest competitors 65 there's 12 divisions or 10yr age gaps 6 divisions (becomes pretty hard for the organises of a small event to organsie who won each division, greater chance for error in results, pretty expensive to run the event with prizes etc). I'm saying to keep it simple at the end of it all and just focus on more important things for the longevity of the sport.
QLD
Tanzania
11361 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 5:27 pm        Report
Adapt said...
laceys lane said...
Adapt said...
HumanCartoon said...
Adapt said...
I hear what you are all saying but unfortunately there is more to SUP then the over 40's population. Yes this demographic may have the greatest involvement in the sport but are you promoting it in a positive way to other age groups or are you just try to hold onto some former self forefill glory that feeds your ego's.
This is just about blokes (and ladies) who aren't ready to lay down just yet, who get at least some of their stoke from competition and testing themselves against their peers and like or not, there are a lot of over 50's in sport. You wouldn't pitch juniors in against seasoned adults in their peak, would you?
I think you guys are a few to many steps ahead at times, the sport isn't that big in our country yet to have so many catergories, yeah fight it out amongst your peers, you know their ages or can at least guess. If it's going to boost your ego's have your own little competition inside of the major event. For me I'm just trying to beat my own time and catch the guy/girl in front anything else is a bonus.
i don't understand where you are coming from. you are commenting about racing. racing is all about ego. then you want to knock down those that have an ego. if you want to better your time well good, but most are there to RACE other paddlers
Here's the angle I'm coming from and the use of the word ego may have been a bad choice of word. At the end of it all the comments were made about having an over 50's division clearly there are alot of over 50's commenting on this, what I'm getting at is if you want age divisions where does it stop? If you go up every division by a 5yr age gap saying our oldest competitors 65 there's 12 divisions or 10yr age gaps 6 divisions (becomes pretty hard for the organises of a small event to organsie who won each division, greater chance for error in results, pretty expensive to run the event with prizes etc). I'm saying to keep it simple at the end of it all and just focus on more important things for the longevity of the sport.
it doesn't have to stop anywhere in my opinion no one is after a kings purse by any means. at the other end, how long do you think racing would last with just a hand full of elite. not bloody long. sup racing needs to look after 'everyone' or it will die off quick smart. not much of a race if it was only the usual 5 or so suspects the pro's know this, that why they want people to do races. success in these races is measured in numbers paddling
VIC
1542 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 5:28 pm        Report
Piros said...
Here's my take on it:- For racing anybody should be to able to compete from all states it's so easy to do the count back for who qualifies for the host state. For surfing different story especially if there is sudden death heats. So yes for racing NO for surfing. Age groups Surfing; 45 is the mark .I turn 50 next year so it's not about me. 50 would be too thin to fill the category and for guys in their mid to late 40's (which there is plenty off) who just can't match it with the rising super groms. Age Group Racing: Different story again you only need a few to make an age category so 40 , 45 , 50 & 55+ is possible. All in the same race. Classes for racing; This is my very humble opinion , drop unlimited and just use 14's fixed rudder (Flame suit on) let's face it the 14's really are suited more to our conditions. BOP take it up to 14 but only the one class It would make it so simple this way to run all the different age classes. Plus this way you can get away with only owning one board and if you want to run a 12-6 you still can , the 14 would not be as good in a BOP but at least you can still compete. The 17's are more for days when everything is right (wind and swell) and unfortunately on race day that rarely happens (in Aus) , so just go out and have fun on them.Plenty of people own 17's and don't compete.Transporting 17's to all the different races is also very difficult and expensive.
There it is. Well put.
NSW
509 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 5:33 pm        Report
HumanCartoon said...
Piros said...
Here's my take on it:- For racing anybody should be to able to compete from all states it's so easy to do the count back for who qualifies for the host state. For surfing different story especially if there is sudden death heats. So yes for racing NO for surfing. Age groups Surfing; 45 is the mark .I turn 50 next year so it's not about me. 50 would be too thin to fill the category and for guys in their mid to late 40's (which there is plenty off) who just can't match it with the rising super groms. Age Group Racing: Different story again you only need a few to make an age category so 40 , 45 , 50 & 55+ is possible. All in the same race. Classes for racing; This is my very humble opinion , drop unlimited and just use 14's fixed rudder (Flame suit on) let's face it the 14's really are suited more to our conditions. BOP take it up to 14 but only the one class It would make it so simple this way to run all the different age classes. Plus this way you can get away with only owning one board and if you want to run a 12-6 you still can , the 14 would not be as good in a BOP but at least you can still compete. The 17's are more for days when everything is right (wind and swell) and unfortunately on race day that rarely happens (in Aus) , so just go out and have fun on them.Plenty of people own 17's and don't compete.Transporting 17's to all the different races is also very difficult and expensive.
There it is. Well put.
Ditto
QLD
Tanzania
11361 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 5:34 pm        Report
HumanCartoon said...
Piros said...
Here's my take on it:- For racing anybody should be to able to compete from all states it's so easy to do the count back for who qualifies for the host state. For surfing different story especially if there is sudden death heats. So yes for racing NO for surfing. Age groups Surfing; 45 is the mark .I turn 50 next year so it's not about me. 50 would be too thin to fill the category and for guys in their mid to late 40's (which there is plenty off) who just can't match it with the rising super groms. Age Group Racing: Different story again you only need a few to make an age category so 40 , 45 , 50 & 55+ is possible. All in the same race. Classes for racing; This is my very humble opinion , drop unlimited and just use 14's fixed rudder (Flame suit on) let's face it the 14's really are suited more to our conditions. BOP take it up to 14 but only the one class It would make it so simple this way to run all the different age classes. Plus this way you can get away with only owning one board and if you want to run a 12-6 you still can , the 14 would not be as good in a BOP but at least you can still compete. The 17's are more for days when everything is right (wind and swell) and unfortunately on race day that rarely happens (in Aus) , so just go out and have fun on them.Plenty of people own 17's and don't compete.Transporting 17's to all the different races is also very difficult and expensive.
There it is. Well put.
ppppfffffffff. wasn't a classic day today, but the big unlimited boards nailed in the short course
VIC
1183 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 6:04 pm        Report
I understand your viewpoint Adapt but obviously the ravages of time, has not had an impact in your life as such? I think to suggest an age limit to involvement and ego overdrive as the primary source of impetus for this discussion is somewhat naive, the discussion is all about promoting involvement in the sport be it old or young, for those commenting it revolves around that particular aged group as highlighted, for you, discussions should be also about inclusion and promotion and trying to get more of a younger generations involvement as well. One group should not override the aspirations of the other as it should also be seen in an overview to the sports promotion, like it or not the older groups have more disposable income in order to afford Sup boards, we have been through the financial survival of the family and are now at the pointy end of life and would still like to be improve fitness and be able to compete, let that be understood. Posts like this and opinions expressed, I believe should be passed onto the Sports governing bodies to listen and learn and incorporate, when making decisions of not only age group categories but board length classes, as the Sport is in its infancy in Australia and its the prime time to get the workings right.
QLD
652 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 6:11 pm        Report
it doesn't have to stop anywhere in my opinion no one is after a kings purse by any means. at the other end, how long do you think racing would last with just a hand full of elite. not bloody long. sup racing needs to look after 'everyone' or it will die off quick smart. not much of a race if it was only the usual 5 or so suspects the pro's know this, that why they want people to do races. success in these races is measured in numbers paddling I agree with with nearly all of this but it has to be manageable, the best races that I've been to are where the winners get acknowledged but the majority of the prizes go out to the participants in a lucky draw. This one discussion could go on forever, there are no right or wrongs unless it harms SUP. I agree that the older half of the population have taken on SUP a lot faster then the younger half, but it would be good if all generational groups were attracted to the sport.
VIC
3324 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 6:44 pm        Report
ockanui said... Posts like this and opinions expressed, I believe should be passed onto the Sports governing bodies to listen and learn and incorporate, when making decisions of not only age group categories but board length classes, as the Sport is in its infancy in Australia and its the prime time to get the workings right.
Age group categories are a luxury that we can play around with at our own discretion but board length classes do need to follow international competition rules, especially those set down by the ISA. No point being out of step with the rest of the world and the major board manufacturers.
QLD
Tanzania
11361 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 7:35 pm        Report
PTWoody said...
ockanui said... Posts like this and opinions expressed, I believe should be passed onto the Sports governing bodies to listen and learn and incorporate, when making decisions of not only age group categories but board length classes, as the Sport is in its infancy in Australia and its the prime time to get the workings right.
Age group categories are a luxury that we can play around with at our own discretion but board length classes do need to follow international competition rules, especially those set down by the ISA. No point being out of step with the rest of the world and the major board manufacturers.
ummm,you tell that to the hawaiians. only a small percentage of paddlers are going to involved with isa ie international. aus surfing have been able to comply and still have other classes catered for. what about the paddlers that consider the hawaiian experience their macca should manufacturers be setting the standards to suit themselfs tricky question i used to be a 14 ft is it, be all, end all. but after getting a big board again, there is a magic there that i would hate to see lost in the rush to appease isa and manufacturing companies
QLD
652 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 8:05 pm        Report
ockanui to say "obviously the ravages of time, has not had an impact in your life as such?" Is one of the lamest sentences I have read from an opinion based on what you read on a computer screen. I've been challenged in my short amount of time on this planet in ways that you would not want to see any of your family or friends go through. That's why I have the 'viewpoint' of why should anyone of economic status or age be more recognised in the sport then a minority group, when the focus should be more on how can we increase numbers across all demographics and decreasing the barriers currently associated with the sport. The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. ~Nelson Henderson We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.~Winston Churchill
QLD
7932 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 8:06 pm        Report
^^^^^free beer for the biggies and red cordial for the groms
VIC
3324 Posts
Posted 9/6/2012, 8:09 pm        Report
laceys lane said...
PTWoody said...
ockanui said... Posts like this and opinions expressed, I believe should be passed onto the Sports governing bodies to listen and learn and incorporate, when making decisions of not only age group categories but board length classes, as the Sport is in its infancy in Australia and its the prime time to get the workings right.
Age group categories are a luxury that we can play around with at our own discretion but board length classes do need to follow international competition rules, especially those set down by the ISA. No point being out of step with the rest of the world and the major board manufacturers.
ummm,you tell that to the hawaiians. only a small percentage of paddlers are going to involved with isa ie international. aus surfing have been able to comply and still have other classes catered for. what about the paddlers that consider the hawaiian experience their macca should manufacturers be setting the standards to suit themselfs tricky question i used to be a 14 ft is it, be all, end all. but after getting a big board again, there is a magic there that i would hate to see lost in the rush to appease isa and manufacturing companies
Surfing Australia and the state affiliates don't need to concern themselves with Hawaiian events as they are for individuals rather than a team representing Australia and selected by Surfing Australia. Anyone wishing to go to Hawaii to compete just needs to buy a plane ticket. They don't need to qualify at nationals. The point being, the state and national titles are a pathway to ISA word titles. If the top competitors at state titles turn up with 17 and 18' boards, how can they be selected for nationals or world titles where the maximum board length is 14'? You might argue that the cream rises to the top regardless of board length but we have found that one or two of our dominant unlimited performers have struggled when stepping down to 14' or 12'6". So that suggests you can't just send people to an international event on the shorter boards and expect that they will go well if they haven't proven themselves. Likewise, if we allow unlimited boards into BOP races when the rest of the world doesn't, we will not be able to remain competitive at an international level. Where I mentioned the big international manufacturers, I don't suggest we allow them to set the rules to suit their own agenda. What I mean is that they are following the global trends and building BOP race boards at 12'6" length. If we are out of step with the global trends, then we are out of step with board development and trying to use downwind or flat water boards in BOP races. I guess what I'm trying to say is we can compromise on age divisions in order to encourage participation, and there is room for flexibility on board length at club comp level. But as soon as we get to state and national titles, there has to be consistency of formats or else the team selection process becomes a farce.
 
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