Forums > Windsurfing General

"EU pin" VS "US cup' One Bolt Rubber VS Tendon

Created by billyboy402 > 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012
billyboy402
NSW, 241 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:36
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which one do you use ?
which one should i look at getting ?
which one are more available ? ( new and 2ndhand )
Which one is cheaper base + extension ?


i already have a euro pin but will need a new extension or
i like the idea of the US cup , as they have push pin on each side to lock
But look like the plastic cup can break

what the different with Tendon and one bolt rubber?
and how tight should the tendon be?

www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Mast+Bases/394976/Surf+Sail+Australia+Quick+Release+2+Bolt+Rubber+Euro+Pin+Mast+Base

www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Mast+Bases/c051p/Chinook+Twist-On+%22One+Bolt%22+Tendon+Mast+Base+Euro+Pin

www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Mast+Bases/399155/Surf+Sail+Australia+Twist+On+One+Bolt+Rubber+Euro+Pin

www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Mast+Bases/2000/Streamlined+Twist-On+Uni+With+Base+Cup






Mobydisc
NSW, 7521 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:46
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This sort of question is kind of like asking whats better, Ford or Holden.

I use a the two pin cup with a rubber bogie thing system coz that is what I've always used. It works. I like it. I can see when it needs attention. It is simple and hasn't jammed up or failed on me yet.

Chinook makes a great two bolt system that I've been using since about 1997. Its still the same system and it works well. Bases I bought back then work with a new universal I bought last year. That is pretty good in my book.



nebbian
WA, 5980 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 16:47
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If you go the euro pin then the only one to get is the chinook that's machined out of a single piece of stainless, other brands bond/screw in two pieces of metal that rust out and break.

If you go the tendon then be sure to replace it every year including the bolts, as the tendon can crack and you never see it.

Personally I use the two bolt cup with a boge joint, very rarely breaks. I've had the pins break off but every time only one pin breaks so everything is together and you only discover it de-rigging.
The plastic cup doesn't break.
The only time I've broken one was when my base was loose and the constant bashing forward and backward in the mast track caused the rubber to fail catastrophically. This would happen on any base.



www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Mast+Bases/394984/Surf+Sail+Australia+Quick+Release+2+Bolt+Rubber+Mast+Base

boardboy
QLD, 553 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:48
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i like the euro pin and tendon combo.
Have trid them all and this is just a personal preference for the speed ane ease of use.
I have never had and reliability issues, however where i sail is not very sandy. so you may like to consider what the conditions are like in the area you sail and whether that will add any addtional wear and tear,.

windaddict
VIC, 988 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 19:04
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nebbian said...
Personally I use the two bolt cup with a boge joint, very rarely breaks. I've had the pins break off but every time only one pin breaks so everything is together and you only discover it de-rigging.
The plastic cup doesn't break.



Same here, I have only ever used the twin pin and they have never failed! Been using them for over 10 years in surf and doing lots of jumps and punishing the crap out of them. I too have had one of the nibs break off but only ever realised when I de-rigged. Easy enough to get a replacement spring clip for < $10 but you will get a few years out of each one. Also the plastic cup does tend to get loose over time, but never had one break on me ever...my old spare one has a lot of play in it from wear, but it just refuses to break!

Either way stick with Chinook, tried and proven and extremely durable IMO!

Mark _australia
WA, 16392 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:00
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Yep in euro-pin Chinook is the one and only due to one piece machining and big heads on the capscrews so when you come to change a tendon you can actually get the bolts undone. That is the second one down in your pics

In US cup they are pretty much all good and advantage is interchangeability of bits, Chinook is a good buy.

I personally don't like US cup as the pins fish-eye the holes in the cup and the whole assembly then develops too much slop. Plus as Nebbian says the pins shear off eventually... but only one at a time (and the u shaped psring with pins on it is cheap, may as well have a couple of spares.

d1
WA, 304 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:04
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Europin forever! Especially if you plan on using RDM.

Mobydisc
NSW, 7521 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:11
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d1 said...

Europin forever! Especially if you plan on using RDM.


Why is that? I use a Chinook RDM extension with the twin pin and cup and it works fine.

Mark _australia
WA, 16392 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:12
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And I think tendon (straight rubber) rather than Boge (the hourglass shaped one) as the tendon failsafe is a bit of downhaul rope, which is surely a damn sight stronger than the nylon strap on a Boge joint

jh2703
NSW, 1130 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:16
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I've been using the Streamlined Euro-pin for a few years now and have had no issues. Rock solid and with all the stainless steel bits it looks even stronger than the chinook ones. They also have a fixed deck plate option, You can just buy extra deck plates for easy swapping between boards.



Beaglebuddy
1454 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:19
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I researched this a bit before buying gear and some people have said that the euro-pin system can sometimes jam up with sand.
I opted for the US cup but I have found it a bit fiddly to get undone especially if in the water. Other sailors I observe seem to get their euro-pins undone much easier.
The biggest issue however is that I discovered the minimum setting on a Chinook skinny US cup extension is 10 CM, this has caused a problem getting certain sails to fit certain masts.

Subsonic
WA, 874 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:21
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I use the cup.

Like Nebs said, replace the tendon every year though and make a habit of checking it regularly. Just recently noticed some tiny little splits in mine after two years of faithful service, so I took it to steve for a replacement, and lo and behold there were some quite decent splits at both ends where the two allen bolts run through

busterwa
3296 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 18:26
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Cup instead of pin will never purchase pin type again in my life (had them come apart)

NOTE FOR THE CUP TYPE The female part of the extension is prone to bending out of shape and that's why they become difficult to introduce..

billyboy402
NSW, 241 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:33
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Mobydisc said...

This sort of question is kind of like asking whats better, Ford or Holden.



haha that easy ,
4 wheel , get me to work , which one can my disable grandmother get in . they both last at long as each other and rego cost are the same

my BA falon vs 2004 commodore

mine was cheaper then any commodore
mine use less fuel
transmission for each ford are cheaper by $300

oh FORD = First On Race Day

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:38
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Cup, tendon, Chinook. I have seen 2 x Euro pins shear off level with the base.

billyboy402
NSW, 241 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:51
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Mark _australia said...

And I think tendon (straight rubber) rather than Boge (the hourglass shaped one) as the tendon failsafe is a bit of downhaul rope, which is surely a damn sight stronger than the nylon strap on a Boge joint


nylon strap is pretty strong we use it at work for laso for the rock climbing
it the only thing were aloud to use

i thought the boge rubber would be better as the rubber is thicker

billyboy402
NSW, 241 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:54
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ikw777 said...

Cup, tendon, Chinook. I have seen 2 x Euro pins shear off level with the base.


i thought there from 1 piece of steal
or are the bolted or welded to the plate ?

i have noitce there are alot more pin for sail 2ndhand

R1DER
WA, 879 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 19:54
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nebbian said...



Personally I use the two bolt cup with a boge joint, very rarely breaks. I've had the pins break off but every time only one pin breaks so everything is together and you only discover it de-rigging.
The plastic cup doesn't break.
The only time I've broken one was when my base was loose and the constant bashing forward and backward in the mast track caused the rubber to fail catastrophically. This would happen on any base.



www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Mast+Bases/394984/Surf+Sail+Australia+Quick+Release+2+Bolt+Rubber+Mast+Base

This is a no brainer.
+3 been using this exact system for over 15 years, given it a hard time in the surf never had a failure.
Tried the tendons they split inside the cup where you can't see, yep the rope holds but you get holes punched in your deck.
seen too many Europins shear off in the surf. (not the new all in one pin)

Mark _australia
WA, 16392 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:57
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ikw777 said...

Cup, tendon, Chinook. I have seen 2 x Euro pins shear off level with the base.


That is normal ones there the pin is bolted to the cup bit that the tendon goes in.
On Chinook, the pin and top cup are machined from one piece of billet. Thus the recommendations of Chinook euro-pin over othe rbrands.

Mark _australia
WA, 16392 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 20:59
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billyboy402 said...

Mark _australia said...

And I think tendon (straight rubber) rather than Boge (the hourglass shaped one) as the tendon failsafe is a bit of downhaul rope, which is surely a damn sight stronger than the nylon strap on a Boge joint


nylon strap is pretty strong we use it at work for laso for the rock climbing
it the only thing were aloud to use

i thought the boge rubber would be better as the rubber is thicker


I doubt it is SWL rated stuff like that used for lifting harnesses etc.
Even if it was, it has a hole through it at each end where the bolt goes though.
I vote for downhaul rope - you can see it's condition and replace it easily.

The Boge rubber may be thicker but it is softer so it can bend with the application of similar force. Thin and stiff, vs thick and softer - same thing.
But how does a Boge joint retain the bolt in each end? It is moulded in.... so you can't see if it is about to let go, or if the strap is worn at the end.

I go for what I can see is about to fail.

But seriously, if you do prevantative maintenance it will be fine with either system - so as I see it the argument really is only US cup vs Europin

d1
WA, 304 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 21:57
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Mobydisc said...

d1 said...

Europin forever! Especially if you plan on using RDM.


Why is that? I use a Chinook RDM extension with the twin pin and cup and it works fine.




Try zero extension with your setup.

Windxtasy
WA, 3657 posts
> 9 months ago, 27 Apr 2012 22:00
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To those of you who like the cup style, how do you get the bolts undone without having to find a stick or screwdriver to depress the bolts? I can never do it with just my fingers.
Chinook europin for me.

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 00:09
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Windxtasy said...

To those of you who like the cup style, how do you get the bolts undone without having to find a stick or screwdriver to depress the bolts? I can never do it with just my fingers.
Chinook europin for me.


Fingers.

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 00:26
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Mark _australia said...

ikw777 said...

Cup, tendon, Chinook. I have seen 2 x Euro pins shear off level with the base.


That is normal ones there the pin is bolted to the cup bit that the tendon goes in.
On Chinook, the pin and top cup are machined from one piece of billet. Thus the recommendations of Chinook euro-pin over othe rbrands.




This is where Ive seen them shear. Pin broke straight through. I'm a little unsure how a single piece design is any better than a bolt through at that point seeing as the pin itself broke. Agree Chinook gear is likely to be best however.



billyboy402
NSW, 241 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 01:19
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Have you ever seen a cup mast extension been bent ?
or crack cup

Every one saying the pin can sheer off . But can you repair the cup

I can see that you can buy replacement pin .


But really worried if it sheer off and the mast hit my foot or worst , my board

billyboy402
NSW, 241 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 01:31
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I understand that when you flip the sail around , on the Eu pin , the mast extension routates around the base pin .


What rotate on the USA cup , ?

Does the mast rotate around the mast extension or does the cup turn ?

Or bellow the rubber part

jh2703
NSW, 1130 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 07:45
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^^^Your putting too much thought into it, They will both do the same job. Just remember this is the most worked part of your kit with rubber bending millions of times and metal grinding on metal. People hang onto these things way too long 5-10 years later I'm sure is past its life span....And they wounder why they break. Both have weak spots, The pin on the Euro and there is nothing more then a bolt attaching the Us cup to the boge. I have read that the boge offers a bit more shock absorbtion then the tendon but with the US cup you can't get zero on your extension.

.....Just get the best one you can based on available coin. Unless you're going to be sailing Hookipa or Margaret river everyday I would not be too concerned.

The boge unmasked, I'm sure it has just as much chance of breaking as the euro-pin?



Just to throw a spanner in the works, Made by chinook and no boge or tendon...Must be the best universal in the world?


aus301
QLD, 2030 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 09:25
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That is not the first time I have seen someone try to introduce a mechanical uni joint, and in the past they have all failed. Too many parts to wear and fail and doesn't work as freely through the required plane of movement as existing rubber joints... if it aint broke...

I once used US cup extensively, found the same issues Mark describe above. In the course of a season the cup would wear and become sloppy. this slop can introduce potential failure.

Since going to the EU pin (which was by accident as a supplier sent me the wrong extension so I changed over) I have only had one issue, which was user error. I got some sand stuck in the female end and had to stuff around for a bit to get the rig to join the board. I use a Severne one and have no issue.

Mobydisc
NSW, 7521 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 10:30
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Windxtasy said...

To those of you who like the cup style, how do you get the bolts undone without having to find a stick or screwdriver to depress the bolts? I can never do it with just my fingers.
Chinook europin for me.


Fingers for me too.

Spotty
VIC, 797 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 11:24
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R1DER said...

nebbian said...



Personally I use the two bolt cup with a boge joint, very rarely breaks. I've had the pins break off but every time only one pin breaks so everything is together and you only discover it de-rigging.
The plastic cup doesn't break.
The only time I've broken one was when my base was loose and the constant bashing forward and backward in the mast track caused the rubber to fail catastrophically. This would happen on any base.



www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Mast+Bases/394984/Surf+Sail+Australia+Quick+Release+2+Bolt+Rubber+Mast+Base

This is a no brainer.
+3 been using this exact system for over 15 years, given it a hard time in the surf never had a failure.
Tried the tendons they split inside the cup where you can't see, yep the rope holds but you get holes punched in your deck.
seen too many Europins shear off in the surf. (not the new all in one pin)



Prefer the the Boge over the tendon as they deflect bit of energy from impacts when jumping or smashing thru chop, I feel the likelihood of a board creasing or snapping is ncreased with a tendon. Tendons are quite stiff and transfer a lot more downward force without much sideways deflection, fine for flat water speed/slalom or freestyle with a more tighter responsive feel for your setup if your pro or can tell the difference in performance they offer. That said it made no difference when I did 50 knts with my trusty Boge joint.

Think of it as a bit of suspension that helps soak up the bumps while still remaining relatively stiff.

d1
WA, 304 posts
> 9 months ago, 28 Apr 2012 10:08
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jh2703 said...
Just to throw a spanner in the works, Made by chinook and no boge or tendon...Must be the best universal in the world?


As Aus301 pointed out, this is not the first 2-axis UJ out there. They were popular in the early 1990's and were sold as "race UJ's", because their profile was lower than the tendon-based units, thus enabling the "gap to be closed" even tighter. I had a similar US-cup-based one, but I think it was F2-branded. It had a number of problems. Unlike tendon-based units, it offers no resistance, so it enabled the boom and mast to strike the board much harder, leading to a lot of destruction. Also, the backlash of the mechanical joint combined with the play of the US-cup made it really sloppy and unpleasant to sail. On top of that, just as Aus301 said, it suffered from unpredictable stickiness due to partial "gimbal lock", because it relies on rotation to align the axes in certain cases.

I'd also like to qualify exactly why I support Europin over US-cup - Europin wears down a lot less and has less play as a result, it allows for zero extension on RDM, it is easier to attach and detach, and it is mechanically much more elegant. I've been using the solid Chinook unit for the last season (thanks to Mark's recommendation on another thread), but only used NeilPryde Europins before. Those usually failed when replacing the tendon (plastic threads stripped), but never at the pin, and never on the water. Must say, I've been steadily losing all my Pryde...



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""EU pin" VS "US cup' One Bolt Rubber VS Tendon" started by billyboy402