I have been struggling for ages with an issue that is frustrating the hell out of me.
So on a port tack, that is wind on left shoulder and left foot in front strap, I can get hooked in, planing, both feet in straps, and most importantly, I can get into a nice locked in position with equal weight on both feet and feel comfortable.
But no matter what I do I just cannot seem to get myself setup so that I am able to get comfortable on a starboard tack.
The main symptom seems to be that I am having to lean onto my front foot to balance the sail when in foot straps. I can sail fine and balanced out of the straps but as soon as I am forced to stand in the one position in straps it's just not balanced.
I am quite short, 5' 6". Today I tried putting mast track as far back as possible and started with a lower boom. But no matter where I put the harness lines, moved the left or right, shortened them, lengthened them, put boom up, back down again, when I got myself planing it was just not balanced.
I am just like "Arrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!"
I would really appreciate some step by step guide on how to fix this. It is just so weird that the port tack is fine.
For reference, I am using a JP super lightwind 92 and a Loft Oxygen 8.4 mainly. I don't seem to have as much trouble on my 125 LT Rocket and smaller sails.
You may have the same or similar problem to me, my sailing is very asymmetric, when I downrig I find one harness line is always much further back than the other. And when well powered up I'm more comfortable on Port tack. I think it's because I take more load on my right hand than my left so the harness lines end up in the direction of my left hand, ie backwards on starboard and forward on port. I've tried several times to sail with balanced lines, but I just can't get comfortable like that.
It sounds like your problem may be more due to leg pressure than arm pull, but there are so many variables, that it very hard to tell what's going on.
Hopefully somebody that's experienced and solved the same problem comes on board.
Select to expand quotegregob said...
[br]I have been struggling for ages with an issue that is frustrating the hell out of me.
So on a port tack, that is wind on left shoulder and left foot in front strap, I can get hooked in, planing, both feet in straps, and most importantly, I can get into a nice locked in position with equal weight on both feet and feel comfortable.
But no matter what I do I just cannot seem to get myself setup so that I am able to get comfortable on a starboard tack.
The main symptom seems to be that I am having to lean onto my front foot to balance the sail when in foot straps. I can sail fine and balanced out of the straps but as soon as I am forced to stand in the one position in straps it's just not balanced.
I am quite short, 5' 6". Today I tried putting mast track as far back as possible and started with a lower boom. But no matter where I put the harness lines, moved the left or right, shortened them, lengthened them, put boom up, back down again, when I got myself planing it was just not balanced.
I am just like "Arrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!"
I would really appreciate some step by step guide on how to fix this. It is just so weird that the port tack is fine.
For reference, I am using a JP super lightwind 92 and a Loft Oxygen 8.4 mainly. I don't seem to have as much trouble on my 125 LT Rocket and smaller sails.
What do you mean by not balanced? Do you need to use one arm more than the other when in the harness? If you hold the boom with both arms when hooked it, is it balanced?
Thinking back to when I was at an earlier learning stage, sometimes the board would be underfinned, which made the rig feel a bit weird. Despite other people thinking that the fin I started using in that board was too big, once I switched to it, the problem went away.
Similarly, I bought a 120 litre iSonic a couple of years ago, and in light wind it was no good for me. What I found later, was that it was also under finned for me, in the wind I was trying to use it in. It requires a bigger fin in lighter winds than I would have thought. A bigger fin made it better to use, and when I learned the way that board behaves, a smaller fin is a bit more easy to use in that board.
I wouldn't think its a problem with your height. I'm 5'8, and have not noticed any significant difference between rigs that makes it a challenge, except for one board that had the footstraps so far apart that it was very difficult to feel comfortable. It seemed to have been designed for Bjorn Dunkerbeck, and built accordingly. When I added some footstrap inserts in the same places where more normal boards had them, the board became much better.
Is the JP superlightwind a wide board? Are the straps way out on the rails?
When I run my 8.6 on my SLW 90 I have the mast step just behind centre but if you are not comfortable with it that far back then in the middle is ok too. I wouldn't go any further forward than centre with an 8.4 . Running your mast step to far forward will start to crunch up your front leg.
Speaking from experience one of the worst things you can do on the super lightwind is run your boom to low. This has the effect of not giving you enough "room" for your legs and it can result in some discomfort or even pain in the back leg. The reason for this is the super lightwinds are very wide in the tail. Mine is 70cm at the one foot mark. yours is even wider. For this reason, super lightwind users need to copy the formula boys and run a slightly higher boom and longer harness lines. I run 32's on my SLW 90 and I could run 30's if I had to but I think my legs would get sore pretty quickly. You need room to stretch out you legs off that wide tail of the superlight winds and running you boom at about bottom lip height and longer harness lines (30cm minimum in my opinion) will help a lot.
Because the super lightwinds are so wide but still fairly short they can be a bit sensitive to setup and trim and can feel kind of crappy when they are set up wrong. So Boom no lower than you chin(higher wouldn't hurt) long harness lines and mast step in the centre or just back from the centre( we are talking 10 or 15 mm at the most) . Once you have this done adjust your harness line positions until the rig is balanced when powered up, not when sub planning. Like I said the super lightwinds can be unforgiving to incorrect setup but they are a freerace board and once you get them right they are a very comfy ride.
One tip I find handy for gybing is pull up firmly on your front foot when gybing. The superlight winds need a fair bit of rail pressure to carve a power gybe and pulling up on your front foot can give you the extra rail pressure you need without having to over commit yourself. What I mean by pulling up on the front foot is dig in you toes and lift your heel. This helps give a bit of extra rail pressure and even a little bit of stability. I had a link to a movie of Sebastian kornum gybing in this manner but it seems to be dead. I'll post it if I can find it.
Stick with it the super lightwinds are a great board you'll love it when you get it sorted out.
P.S. I got the link working. Take note of what he does with his front foot. He pulls up pretty hard and sort of screws the board around with his front leg rather than just camping on his back leg over the rail.
Ok if you pause the movie when he tacks you can see what I mean about the boom height. His boom seems to be up at eye level. It's hard to tell but his mast step looks a fair way back as well. His harness lines don't look overly long but his boom height probably compensates for this.
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said... gregob said...
I have been struggling for ages with an issue that is frustrating the hell out of me.
So on a port tack, that is wind on left shoulder and left foot in front strap, I can get hooked in, planing, both feet in straps, and most importantly, I can get into a nice locked in position with equal weight on both feet and feel comfortable.
But no matter what I do I just cannot seem to get myself setup so that I am able to get comfortable on a starboard tack.
The main symptom seems to be that I am having to lean onto my front foot to balance the sail when in foot straps. I can sail fine and balanced out of the straps but as soon as I am forced to stand in the one position in straps it's just not balanced.
I am quite short, 5' 6". Today I tried putting mast track as far back as possible and started with a lower boom. But no matter where I put the harness lines, moved the left or right, shortened them, lengthened them, put boom up, back down again, when I got myself planing it was just not balanced.
I am just like "Arrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!"
I would really appreciate some step by step guide on how to fix this. It is just so weird that the port tack is fine.
For reference, I am using a JP super lightwind 92 and a Loft Oxygen 8.4 mainly. I don't seem to have as much trouble on my 125 LT Rocket and smaller sails.
What do you mean by not balanced? Do you need to use one arm more than the other when in the harness? If you hold the boom with both arms when hooked it, is it balanced?
Thinking back to when I was at an earlier learning stage, sometimes the board would be underfinned, which made the rig feel a bit weird. Despite other people thinking that the fin I started using in that board was too big, once I switched to it, the problem went away.
Similarly, I bought a 120 litre iSonic a couple of years ago, and in light wind it was no good for me. What I found later, was that it was also under finned for me, in the wind I was trying to use it in. It requires a bigger fin in lighter winds than I would have thought. A bigger fin made it better to use, and when I learned the way that board behaves, a smaller fin is a bit more easy to use in that board.
I wouldn't think its a problem with your height. I'm 5'8, and have not noticed any significant difference between rigs that makes it a challenge, except for one board that had the footstraps so far apart that it was very difficult to feel comfortable. It seemed to have been designed for Bjorn Dunkerbeck, and built accordingly. When I added some footstrap inserts in the same places where more normal boards had them, the board became much better.
Is the JP superlightwind a wide board? Are the straps way out on the rails?
It feels like there is too much pull in my front hand - when committed to harness I have to lean to front to sheet in sail. Moving lines further forward doesn't fix it and adds pressure to back hand. Not leaning forward to sheet in means I head off down wind.
Ironically, the only time I had even foot pressure was when totally over powered and having drop all weight into harness and bend legs to keep sailed sheeted in and board under control. Standing up, straitening legs and getting rig away from body leads to having to straighten back leg and lean forward thus not being able to sail happily balanced.
Select to expand quoteCluffy said...
Ok if you pause the movie when he tacks you can see what I mean about the boom height. His boom seems to be up at eye level. It's hard to tell but his mast step looks a fair way back as well. His harness lines don't look overly long but his boom height probably compensates for this.
Thanks Cluffy - I have not tried with the boom so high. He also has his seat harness set lower than mine as well by the looks. When I get out next I'll give it a go.
Select to expand quotedecrepit said...
You may have the same or similar problem to me, my sailing is very asymmetric, when I downrig I find one harness line is always much further back than the other. And when well powered up I'm more comfortable on Port tack. I think it's because I take more load on my right hand than my left so the harness lines end up in the direction of my left hand, ie backwards on starboard and forward on port. I've tried several times to sail with balanced lines, but I just can't get comfortable like that.
It sounds like your problem may be more due to leg pressure than arm pull, but there are so many variables, that it very hard to tell what's going on.
Hopefully somebody that's experienced and solved the same problem comes on board.
That's the opposite to me. I am quite happy to have lines back further on port tack. So when I am not powered up it feels like it's too far back but once I powered up get hiked out the COE moves back and it feels right.
Moving lines further back on starboard tack just exacerbates the need to lean further to the front when planing. Bloody odd eh?!
The human body isn't symmetric it changes in strength and flexibility from one side to the other so to does it's abilities and limitations so its not so strange that your balance may be different on different tacks. By changing your harness line position and length also foot strap position or using an offset mast base adjusted differently on each side you can try to tune your board and rig into your body's abilities through trial and error. Good luck.
One thing you said stands out- moving lines doesnt make a difference except on back hand. I would look at sail tuning perhaps a touch more down &/or outhaul. Bigger sails are inherently less stable, put it on a bigger board & it loads the sail more which is why same sail will feel nicer when you drop to the rocket. It can be a subtle trim problem, most people dont sail equal reaches, they either set off up or downwind & have to point or reach back to starting point changing the load point on sail side to side, also the chop direction changes with similar effect. Once the sail & board are rigged right I tend to space the lines about 3" apart as it makes it easier to feel trim changes. Also if you are equally balanced in harness while not planing your lines will be slightly too far back while hooked in & planing. After all that it could just be that your body isnt balancing the forces the same, I guess you could alter your strap position on the uncomfy tack or just focus on stance much more. If you feel it is gear sometimes it can help to have a guy that you know sets their gear up well take your kit for a run to see whether they notice an imbalance.
Could the footstrap positions be different? I know as a 5'6" high person I had to position my footstraps closer together on the rocket and they still felt too far apart..The JP is as big wide board isn't it..for someone your height so that might make it worse?
1. Practice
2. If you are comfortable on one side in the gusty, bumpy frontal off shore winds of late that is 50% good, not 50% bad
3. Are you in the river ? Is the current making one tack broad and the other one a panic to try to get back to where you started ?
4. More practice
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said...
1. Practice
2. If you are comfortable on one side in the gusty, bumpy frontal off shore winds of late that is 50% good, not 50% bad
3. Are you in the river ? Is the current making one tack broad and the other one a panic to try to get back to where you started ?
4. More practice
Been sailing in harbour. It is gusty but once I get going it's ok. I'll always need more practice but I'm wondering if there is any practical steps I can follow to remedy it? It's either in my head / technique or it's a setup problem that I have failed to troubleshoot.
Select to expand quotesboardcrazy said...
Could the footstrap positions be different? I know as a 5'6" high person I had to position my footstraps closer together on the rocket and they still felt too far apart..The JP is as big wide board isn't it..for someone your height so that might make it worse?
I have moved the straps to the most inboard position. I feel fine going on the port tack so it's not so much that they are too wide. I am wondering about whether changing the outhaul setting would move the COE more forward or back and if using an adjustable outhaul might be a solution?
If I could move the centre of effort more to the back hand then having the harness back in line with a comfortable footstrap position would make sense.
Firstly I am no expert but I had to overcome this issue at one stage as well. I think the assymetric issue would be fairly common as we all favour one side of our bodies (except if ambidextrous). I think it is just practice combined with technique and tuning. With sailing my issue was port tack and now it depends on location which side I prefer. Harness lines was my first thought and I know you have looked at this but one thing for consideration is harness lines should be identical either side, so I measure the position exactly of the harness lines, using for example the Cribb sheet you get on Guy Cribb courses and adjust for each sail size. Boom also has markings but is around 1/3 down the sail except when you have a large cut out. The lines also need to be long enough for you, which is not as long as me at over 6ft. Stick with the longer lines. Perhaps 26 or 28 for you? It enables you to have a stance with fairly straight legs and backside out taking all the weight in the harness and evenly.
My technique issue was not getting my backside out and swinging my hips around and forward on one tack (Hip to be square see www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Stance-%20Hip%20To%20Be%20Square.pdf). That is body twisted forward so you stand more perpendicular to the board with your head twisted forward not your hips open. There are lots of permutations and combinations of things to adjust so you may need a pro to watch you at some stage. The tuning thing needs to be taken out of the equation first though. It is hard to be comfortable with poorly tuned kit. I personally don't think it is outhaul as that changes things for both sides and should match the conditions.
Select to expand quotedecrepit said...
You may have the same or similar problem to me, my sailing is very asymmetric, when I down rig I find one harness line is always much further back than the other.
It's a weird thing, isn't it. My harness lines are also set at quite different positions for each side of the sail. Never been able to figure out exactly why. Glad to discover I'm not the only one!
Select to expand quoteHarrow said...decrepit said...
You may have the same or similar problem to me, my sailing is very asymmetric, when I down rig I find one harness line is always much further back than the other.
It's a weird thing, isn't it. My harness lines are also set at quite different positions for each side of the sail. Never been able to figure out exactly why. Glad to discover I'm not the only one!
I do this too, but for an obvious reason. My left arm is weaker than my right, and I set my lines up so that the right arm is always the one pulling or pushing. The left is just a pivot point.
It works. It doesn't look symmetrical, but then neither does my body.
rig up your sail and put it in a board on the beach with no fin.
stand on the board and put both feet in the straps then hook in
adjust the lines until you can balance the sail only holding the boom lightly with your front hand.
You should be able to take your back hand off and hold it for 30 sec with just the front hand.
control gust by putting more weight on the harness, the harness should be doing 95% of the work.
Select to expand quoteRoar said...
rig up your sail and put it in a board on the beach with no fin.
stand on the board and put both feet in the straps then hook in
adjust the lines until you can balance the sail only holding the boom lightly with your front hand.
You should be able to take your back hand off and hold it for 30 sec with just the front hand.
control gust by putting more weight on the harness, the harness should be doing 95% of the work.
Thanks Roar, That's a good idea. Nice gybing vid too BTW. Bastard.
Is my understanding correct that the COE moves back slightly when you get planing compared to non-planing? So I would need to adjust slightly back on the water after doing this?
Also, should it be possible to balance the rig with any mast foot position? What I mean is, should I be able to use the other variables of boom height, harness length, and position to find the balance point regardless of where the mast foot is set?
Select to expand quotecameronil said...
Stick with the longer lines. Perhaps 26 or 28 for you? It enables you to have a stance with fairly straight legs and backside out taking all the weight in the harness and evenly.
My technique issue was not getting my backside out and swinging my hips around and forward on one tack (Hip to be square see www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Stance-%20Hip%20To%20Be%20Square.pdf). That is body twisted forward so you stand more perpendicular to the board with your head twisted forward not your hips open. There are lots of permutations and combinations of things to adjust so you may need a pro to watch you at some stage
+1 for long harness lines (30in Dakines are closer to 28 everything else) so you HAVE to sink into the harness
+2 for hip to be square. This fits your description of the problem of balance. Hips not square mean your sail isn't sheeted in and you're sinking the tail. If it's your less confident side you may also be pulling in with your left hand to avoid getting overpowered which further under sheets the sail. Push the rig away so that your front arm is extended, then square up your hips (twisting front hip to the board, back hip away from the board).
