Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

Would there be much speed difference between?

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Created by SWS > 9 months ago, 15 Aug 2011
SWS
SA, 196 posts
15 Aug 2011 8:25PM
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Would there be much speed difference between a polyester speed board and a 100% carbon speed board?

There is a big price difference $1395 to $2895 would a carbon version be $1500 faster?

keef
NSW, 2015 posts
15 Aug 2011 10:24PM
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yes if you could buy a new polyester speed board for $1395 your getting ripped

decrepit
WA, 11828 posts
15 Aug 2011 9:02PM
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I'm surprised anybody's making polyester speed boards these days?
I don't even know anybody still making polyester wave boards.

SWS
SA, 196 posts
16 Aug 2011 9:39AM
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I am going to get one to test out and see how it goes. XST 80 Length 7'9”/236cm Width 20.75”/53cm Volume 80L

I don't see there being much weight difference it will come down to stiffness. But a softer ride might be faster over chop.

SWS
SA, 196 posts
16 Aug 2011 9:42AM
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Glitch
QLD, 291 posts
16 Aug 2011 10:37AM
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There is a topic at the moment in Windsurfing General - Is windsurfing popularity still declining? The feeling here is that gear is getting too expensive and too technical, so for a board that is probably about 95% of the performance of carbon for half the cost that will give the same amount of fun, I say go for it.

SWS
SA, 196 posts
16 Aug 2011 10:21AM
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I agree as I very much doubt I would get 100% performance out of a more expensive board.

sailquik
VIC, 6068 posts
16 Aug 2011 12:48PM
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Not at all.

The only reason I don't have polyester speed boards anymore is that the mould for the blanks has been destroyed and we can't get suitable blanks anymore.

For a board such as you describe, there are actually advantages. The slightly 'damper' ride of a polyester board eats up chop much better than stiff carbon boards which rattle your fillings out. It is interesting that most Carbon Art brand speed board actually have only a small proportion of carbon fiber in them, and to me that is an advantage.

In a small speed board weight is not an issue and lighter is not faster. We have seen people experimenting with actually adding lead weights to speed boards with favorable results!

up until about 2006 I was regularly using a couple of 47-48cm wide polyester speed boards with great success. I have a 44+ Knots peak on one of them! I was also using a 21" wide slalom and it is still the fastest board on choppy water that I have ever had.



The biggest problem I had with my polyester boards is the long term stability of the rocker shape. I re-faired to rocker of my 47 speed board a couple of times after it developed slight negative tail rocker due to warping. (This can happen to epoxy boards as well though).

I eventually ripped the US type fin box out of the slalom board which ended its life. If it had a Tuttle box it might still be alive.

If you know a source of quality polyester blanks suitable size for speed boards I would be most interested. I recon I could still build a polyester speed board for about a third the cost of an epoxy in about a quarter of the time. I have a few pretty radical ideas I would like to try but I will never do it in Epoxy. Too much trouble and mucking around.

keef
NSW, 2015 posts
16 Aug 2011 1:44PM
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SWS said...

I am going to get one to test out and see how it goes. XST 80 Length 7'9”/236cm Width 20.75”/53cm Volume 80L

I don't see there being much weight difference it will come down to stiffness. But a softer ride might be faster over chop.



you know when they first started making carbon sail boards , the only carbon was the stringer and Polyethylene Foam blank "epoxy carbon tech" i dought these OES boards are polyester, maybe you can ask pete to stick in a polyester air vent and call it " OES PAV XST tech"
if pete is making custom boards for $1395 i'm interested
sailquick you can find heaps of blanks at your locol tip, if your lucky you mite get one for the price of a new tuttle box and mast track, thats if you can get one with a tuttle , box keeping in mind that polyurethane is a closed cell foam it lets very little moisture in and that means resin , just get an old fat urethane board score it with a fine router and the glass will just peel off leaving just a bit of foam fur on the glass, if your careful you will end up with the exact blank before it was glassed , i did a post on the hardcores a while back

SWS
SA, 196 posts
16 Aug 2011 2:29PM
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I will be getting the board at the end of the month so all will be revealed then. Will post the pictures.

jimbob SA
SA, 992 posts
16 Aug 2011 3:39PM
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SWS said...

I will be getting the board at the end of the month so all will be revealed then. Will post the pictures.


Cool will be interesting to see it, I have been thinking about a 60 litre one myself, Had a few beers with Pete in maui top bloke, I like the cheaper option too for a board that may only see the water a few times a year.

Glitch
QLD, 291 posts
16 Aug 2011 8:55PM
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Having a look at you board it is almost the same as one I have just finished out of wood. Once your poly board is done could you post the weight for a comparison. This is the dimensions for the frame with the wood being 6 mm on top of this. The weight ended up at just over 7.5 kg without the foot straps.





SWS
SA, 196 posts
16 Aug 2011 8:27PM
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Your board looks nice. Once i get it I will post the specs.

brad1
QLD, 232 posts
16 Aug 2011 8:59PM
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Select to expand quote
Nice bit of crafting there!!







keef
NSW, 2015 posts
16 Aug 2011 10:40PM
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Glitch said...

Having a look at you board it is almost the same as one I have just finished out of wood. Once your poly board is done could you post the weight for a comparison. This is the dimensions for the frame with the wood being 6 mm on top of this. The weight ended up at just over 7.5 kg without the foot straps.


well done GLitch how many have you made




sailquik
VIC, 6068 posts
16 Aug 2011 11:36PM
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keef said...

Sailquik, you can find heaps of blanks at your local tip, if your lucky you mite get one for the price of a new Tuttle box and mast track, that's if you can get one with a Tuttle, box keeping in mind that polyurethane is a closed cell foam it lets very little moisture in and that means resin , just get an old fat urethane board score it with a fine router and the glass will just peel off leaving just a bit of foam fur on the glass, if your careful you will end up with the exact blank before it was glassed , i did a post on the hardcores a while back



One thing I did learn in my Polyester shaping career was that it is a huge advantage to source blanks that are as close as possible to you final shape. The outer foam is the densest, hardest and most stable. The more you mow away, the softer to core gets and more glass has to be laid on to stiffen and harden it up again. This is especially a problem on the deck where you need resistance to your feet impacting the foam core. We tried making speed boards out of slalom blanks and were a disaster. A year or so back I called Burford to see if they still could still make the speed blanks. Unfortunately, they had hacked the molds up to produce another type of blank for Nippers boards or some such, so no can do anymore.

keef
NSW, 2015 posts
17 Aug 2011 9:09AM
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sailquik said...

keef said...




One thing I did learn in my Polyester shaping career was that it is a huge advantage to source blanks that are as close as possible to you final shape. The outer foam is the densest, hardest and most stable. The more you mow away, the softer to core gets and more glass has to be laid on to stiffen and harden it up again. This is especially a problem on the deck where you need resistance to your feet impacting the foam core. We tried making speed boards out of slalom blanks .


remembering that the core is soooooooooooooooo dry and porus you need to toughen and seal the outer core with thinned mix of epoxy & micro balloons, the high impact areas you need some divinycell, you will also find you will be sanding most of the bogg mix off, this procedure sounds a bit tedious but no where as hard as laying up a whole board with divinycell
"one tip" allways lay a layer of 3oz satin weave over the laminate , you wont have any pinholes, no sanding down to your main laminate, you will need less bogg on the finish , it will wrap around 90deg and its cheep

Glitch
QLD, 291 posts
17 Aug 2011 6:00PM
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That is the fourth wood one so far Keef.


This is the 1st one. It was built with bits that were kept over the years.


The 2nd one I didn't pay enough attention to weight. Although it sails ok, it is just a bit too heavy.


This one is a 43 cm board. Sailboards plane using dynamic pressure (equal & opposite forces ). On this I wanted to see if it is possible to use static pressure ( like an aeroplane wing) to keep it up on top of the water. To achieve this I put a 1/2" concave on the back 1/3 of the bottom. It is hard to say if it has an effect or not, but the board seems to get up on the plane easily for a board of this volume. It might work better on a formula board, but I will leave that for someone else to experiment with. Maybe Starboard will do this and claim another windsurfing invention.


legless
WA, 852 posts
21 Aug 2011 8:16AM
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Polyester XST80 being milled.



sailquik
VIC, 6068 posts
21 Aug 2011 4:56PM
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What brand of Polyester blank are they?
Whose is the milling set up?

SWS
SA, 196 posts
21 Aug 2011 5:34PM
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It is OES setup and the blank is a SUP blank.

keef
NSW, 2015 posts
21 Aug 2011 8:25PM
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SWS said...

Would there be much speed difference between a polyester speed board and a 100% carbon speed board?



not sure if i'm missing something here, your saying polyester foam as the core " not sure what it is" and OES says
Four new 2012 designs , base on our super fast rocker lines , with our very controlable veed , double concave, bottom shape.

There will be two differant types of constuction our standard model ,CGC [Carbon/ S Glass/ Corecell] and our PRO model FCC [Full Carbon /Corecell]

i thought corecell was PVC outer core,
SWS said...

It is OES setup and the blank is a SUP blank.

ok so there using a sup blank to make speed boards, mmmmmmmmmmmm that will be interesting

decrepit
WA, 11828 posts
21 Aug 2011 7:30PM
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The blanks are polyurethane.
Unlike styrene foam, they aren't troubled by polyester/vinyl resin.
But they can still be made with epoxy and carbon.

keef
NSW, 2015 posts
21 Aug 2011 10:15PM
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decrepit said...

The blanks are polyurethane.
Unlike styrene foam, they aren't troubled by polyester/vinyl resin.
But they can still be made with epoxy and carbon.


yes i under the system decrep, its just a bit confusing, OES claim the boards are corecell, wouldn't think they would be useing a urathane"ply stringer" blank as well as corecell, it will be interesting to see the finished product

decrepit
WA, 11828 posts
21 Aug 2011 9:19PM
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They may be using super super light urethane.
Stonesurf at Geraldton does this because he's allergic to epoxy. (I think he convinced Burford of the need to make these blanks)
And unlike OES I don't think he uses a stringer.
Great idea actually, you get a sealed foam, and strong sandwich construction, no vents needed.

The only problem is as sailquick said, the blanks aren't even density, softer in the middle harder near the skin. Means it's not a good idea to deviate too far from the blank's shape.

SWS
SA, 196 posts
22 Aug 2011 12:05AM
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keef said...

SWS said...

Would there be much speed difference between a polyester speed board and a 100% carbon speed board?



not sure if i'm missing something here, your saying polyester foam as the core " not sure what it is" and OES says
Four new 2012 designs , base on our super fast rocker lines , with our very controlable veed , double concave, bottom shape.

There will be two differant types of constuction our standard model ,CGC [Carbon/ S Glass/ Corecell] and our PRO model FCC [Full Carbon /Corecell]

i thought corecell was PVC outer core,
SWS said...

It is OES setup and the blank is a SUP blank.

ok so there using a sup blank to make speed boards, mmmmmmmmmmmm that will be interesting




I asked them to make a polyester one as it is $1400 less than a full carbon one.

They are using the SUP blank as it was the only one that would fit the shape of the board, Being a SUP blank makes no difference other than that more needs to be cut away to shape it into a XST 80.

decrepit
WA, 11828 posts
21 Aug 2011 10:47PM
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SWS said...
>>>>>>>>
They are using the SUP blank as it was the only one that would fit the shape of the board, Being a SUP blank makes no difference other than that more needs to be cut away to shape it into a XST 80.



Weeeellll maybe, but as previously mentioned, the deeper you cut into a moulded urethane blank the softer it gets.
If you're not using good sandwich technology or perhaps carbon, it's going to dent very readily.

keef
NSW, 2015 posts
22 Aug 2011 9:23AM
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decrepit said...

SWS said...
>>>>>>>>
They are using the SUP blank as it was the only one that would fit the shape of the board, Being a SUP blank makes no difference other than that more needs to be cut away to shape it into a XST 80.



Weeeellll maybe, but as previously mentioned, the deeper you cut into a moulded urethane blank the softer it gets.
If you're not using good sandwich technology or perhaps carbon, it's going to dent very readily.
i didnt notice the density change with the hardcore but i used divinicell in the high stress area's, SWS have you got a gestimate on this board, if its a sup blank it will have a stringer, my guess the board will be weighing in at around 7kgs without straps


SWS
SA, 196 posts
22 Aug 2011 9:52AM
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It has a stringer as you can see from the above pics. I have no delusions about it being heavier than a carbon board but then it is $1800 cheaper. I think it is going to end up working well and you can almost buy 2 for the price of a full carbon one.

slowboat
WA, 548 posts
22 Aug 2011 10:34AM
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problem with PU is that it has no memory, and over time it loses its shape easily.

Pounding through chop the foam is compressed and it permanently collapses a bit with each bit of chop.

A board made with EPS core holds its shape better because the shape is significantly defined by the outer PVC shell, and the blank is able to be compressed without losing its shape, so under impact, the shape returns to original.

Over time the EPS boards will lose their shape, but not as quicky as a urethane board.

Also the urethane boards have much more damping. Can be nice on a speed board, but I find that using glass on a EPS board works nice too. Full carbon boards are a waste of carbon and your knees.

Ben 555
NSW, 453 posts
22 Aug 2011 12:39PM
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slowboat said...

Also the urethane boards have much more damping. Can be nice on a speed board, but I find that using glass on a EPS board works nice too. Full carbon boards are a waste of carbon and your knees.



I sailed Andrew from Leading Edge fins full carbon board back in the mid 90's at Lano - great board - best sailed at low tide - otherwise it would transmit every ripple to your joints



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"Would there be much speed difference between?" started by SWS