Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Bitcoin scams@!

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Created by FormulaNova 8 months ago, 28 Jul 2020
FormulaNova
WA, 11898 posts
28 Jul 2020 5:50PM
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Has everyone seen these?

Now you are getting Dick Smith as being the man behind making a fortune from Bitcoin. A few months ago it was a former NSW premier, and I think even Steve Wozniak from Apple was being used as the supposed center of these get rich quick schemes.

Just so its clear, everyone knows these are a scam right, aimed at pumping up Bitcoin so that someone that already has some makes a bit more money?

I was going to include a link to one, but its pretty convincing as it has the news.com.au banners and all to try and make it seem legit.

Yes, Bitcoin, how to make EVERYONE rich all at the same time....

Harrow
NSW, 3745 posts
29 Jul 2020 11:29AM
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I'm just amazed that it's still a thing, and even more amazed that there are others too.

Toph
WA, 1687 posts
29 Jul 2020 9:41AM
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Electric cars, diet pills, bitcoin, it happens all over. Not always necessarily a scam but certainly dishonest affiliate marketing. Another forum that I frequently visit has Dick as a member and he is furious abut his name being used for this particular issue.

Poida
WA, 1864 posts
29 Jul 2020 3:11PM
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I blame Clive Palmer

cisco
QLD, 12019 posts
29 Jul 2020 11:06PM
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If crypto currency is going to be the new form of exchange why is it always referred to as what it is worth against fiat currency, i.e. dollars??

bjw
NSW, 3287 posts
1 Aug 2020 8:21AM
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Bitcoin is like veganism. People who support it try and push it on everyone else.

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
2 Aug 2020 4:22PM
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cisco said..
If crypto currency is going to be the new form of exchange why is it always referred to as what it is worth against fiat currency, i.e. dollars??





If the Australian dollar is our form of exchange why is it always referred to as what it is worth against fiat currency, i.e. dollars??

Currently @ ~ $US0.71

Same answer.

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
2 Aug 2020 4:26PM
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I might make a very good contender for world reserve currency, being that nobody can control it.

Rails
QLD, 1263 posts
3 Aug 2020 4:29AM
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evlPanda said..
I might make a very good contender for world reserve currency, being that nobody can control it.


The energetic costs of "mining" make it unviable, why spend $10K of natural resources to make something digital which has no inherent value except scarcity? Consume the earth for something with no value!

seems stupid, is stupid, unless, on an individual basis, you made a digital fortune in the boom which you converted back to real things, e.g property, infrastructure etc...

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
3 Aug 2020 2:27PM
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^ Because money is not real. It doesn't grow on trees. It doesn't exist in the ground. We invent it.

How much does $1 weigh? See? Money isn't real. Like, i can send you $1 or $100 and they'll weigh the same; nothing.

Money is an abstract concept that we all subscribe to, because money makes exchange just soooo much easier. It's a fantastic invention.

From there you can ask "Well, what makes a good form of money, then?" and go from there. what would you create? How would you get around all the usual problems? For example with a digital money how do you prevent counterfeit? How do you prevent something digital being copied?

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
3 Aug 2020 2:30PM
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BTW yes, there are bitcoin scams out there. Of course there are. Heaps of them. "Send us between 0.1 and 20 btc and we'll send you double back!" type of thing. It's money. People want it.

Rails
QLD, 1263 posts
4 Aug 2020 6:06AM
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evlPanda said..
BTW yes, there are bitcoin scams out there. Of course there are. Heaps of them. "Send us between 0.1 and 20 btc and we'll send you double back!" type of thing. It's money. People want it.


BIT is as you say a medium of exchange, all I am pointing out is that the energetic costs have consequences and people only want it because they think it will make them rich, it has no intrinsic value other than wealth creation.
Other fiat currencies are back by the ability of the population within a nation state to finance debt, which is usually spent to finance infrastructure or other public goods.
The proceeds from botcoin usually go to crims so that the system of exchange has little or no social value.

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
4 Aug 2020 1:14PM
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This $20 bill has no intrinsic value. I can't even burn it. If I travel to just New Zealand it can't be used.

The energy costs that go toward producing and maintaining it, and its now much more common digital version are enormous. All the people and systems required for all the banks and transfer systems and security and so on and on and on and on. The finance sector is huge.

There were some very exciting articles a year or so ago about how the sum of bitcoin mining was equal to a small city. It is. That is an indicator of how secure it is. It is the most secure thing ever built, really. What wasn't so exciting was how it turns out most of the electricity used to run it is off-peak hydro, or similar. It simply has to be cheap to remain profitable. That is boring so you didn't hear about it.

There are a few economic theories, not just Keynesian, classical et al. Bitcoin is of the Austrian School. Quite different to what you are used to. Even if you might not agree with it in the end it makes for a fascinating read.

Right now we are generating more and more money out of thin air, as debt, than ever before. It's truly eye watering. The debt racked up now won't be paid off for decades to come, if we don't add even more in the meantime.

Bitcoin takes the opposite approach; less and less of it is created, at a pre-programmed pace. There is no debt, and ultimately no inflation. (Bitcoin had a pre-programmed "halving" a few months ago, its third, and is now inflating at around 2%, down from 4%)

Fiat can and does collapse. Unexpected events occur. Debt can become insurmountable. It bring economic disaster along with it.

It's really an attempt to return to the gold standard in a way, but using a better form. It's an experiment. Not everyone it appeals to is a criminal or get-rich-quick type. There is a lot more at stake. Hey, it might fail.

If anything fiat is get-rich-quick wealth creation, for the few. The rich have gotten only richer the last few months, while the rest of us are in ever more public debt. Correct me if I'm wrong.

FormulaNova
WA, 11898 posts
4 Aug 2020 11:54AM
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Bitcoin as such is just a nominal currency, and someone else could create an identical currency, based on the exact same calculations and call it botcoin. There is no intrinsic value of it and its only worth something if people agree to exchange it for other goods or currencies.

The scams that you see for Bitcoin are obviously from people trying to lure others into buying it to pump up its value, clearly to then sell once it has been pumped up.

Bitcoin is worth nothing if no one agrees to exchange it. At least gold is something tangible.

I could create Botcoin tomorrow and its only useful if anyone agrees to exchange for it.

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
4 Aug 2020 4:08PM
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^ This. Absolutely right. It's based on consensus; people agree to use it as a currency, that it has value. Nothing more. (technically a lot more, but that's another area)

But scams to buy it, and pump up the price? $Billions traded every day. I don't think there are any little scams going to affect that.

Harrow
NSW, 3745 posts
4 Aug 2020 4:13PM
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HARROW coin is now available. It is less energy intensive to create than bitcoin. I have a number in my head between 1 and a 100. If you guess what it is, you get a HARROW coin, and instead of having to buy a fancy computer with 10 graphics cards and burn all that electricity, you only need to pay me $100 to have a guess. Since you have a 1 in 100 chance, a HARROW coin already has an intrinsic value of $10,000. Each week, I'll increase the range from which I pick my random number, so next week I'll pick a number between 1 and 110, the week after that, between 1 and 121, which means the value of HARROW coin is guaranteed to go up by at least 10% each week. There are only ten HARROW coins issued each week, so get in quick, the scarcity will make them even more valuable.

No silly 'block chain' to pass around either. The issue of HARROW coin is recorded using a revolutionary technology called 'note pad', which I keep in my top desk drawer.

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
4 Aug 2020 4:27PM
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^ Ha, yep. That's how any brand new currency starts, including the Australian dollar.

So now how are you going to represent a HARROW coin? How can you handle counterfeits? How can I transfer one? Can I chop one in half? And so on. All problems any currency has to solve.

Like, if you actually look into how to make your own currency, what is actually involved, really go deep into it, one that would actually, really work, there is a lot involved. It's hard. Especially one that is decentralised.

3 Blue 1 Brown has an excellent video that starts out ...pretty much like your idea. "I'm going to make my own currency/ledger. Now what?"



www.3blue1brown.com/

FormulaNova
WA, 11898 posts
4 Aug 2020 2:32PM
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evlPanda said..
^ This. Absolutely right. It's based on consensus; people agree to use it as a currency, that it has value. Nothing more. (technically a lot more, but that's another area)

But scams to buy it, and pump up the price? $Billions traded every day. I don't think there are any little scams going to affect that.


Yes of course there are.

Mike Baird featured in a scammers article about buying it. Dick Smith, Steve Wozniak. All designed to make people think that they are missing out and to buy Bitcoin.

Why would someone want someone else to buy bitcoin? well, that's pretty obvious really.

FormulaNova
WA, 11898 posts
4 Aug 2020 2:56PM
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Harrow said..
HARROW coin is now available. It is less energy intensive to create than bitcoin. I have a number in my head between 1 and a 100. If you guess what it is, you get a HARROW coin, and instead of having to buy a fancy computer with 10 graphics cards and burn all that electricity, you only need to pay me $100 to have a guess. Since you have a 1 in 100 chance, a HARROW coin already has an intrinsic value of $10,000. Each week, I'll increase the range from which I pick my random number, so next week I'll pick a number between 1 and 110, the week after that, between 1 and 121, which means the value of HARROW coin is guaranteed to go up by at least 10% each week. There are only ten HARROW coins issued each week, so get in quick, the scarcity will make them even more valuable.

No silly 'block chain' to pass around either. The issue of HARROW coin is recorded using a revolutionary technology called 'note pad', which I keep in my top desk drawer.


I will exchange 1 FNcoin for every $10,000 worth of Harrow coin you care to exchange. (1 this week, but no doubt 0.1 next week...)

My FNcoin are based on the same crypto value as the bitcoin, but I will be the sole arbiter of who actually owns what. It's great!

I will keep a block-chain, but it starts with me.

Where is the value? Trust me.

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
5 Aug 2020 12:30PM
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Yeah.. so

I'm going to leave this thread, before all the non-seabreeze posters turn up again. Remember those weirdos?

...so, the coins you and Harrow have created are centralised. Controlled by someone. Like the RBA.
Bitcoin is decentralised. Nobody can control it. It's a unique piece of technology in that respect.

This is, literally, it:
github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin

japie
NSW, 6186 posts
5 Aug 2020 12:59PM
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evlPanda said..
Yeah.. so

I'm going to leave this thread, before all the non-seabreeze posters turn up again. Remember those weirdos?

...so, the coins you and Harrow have created are centralised. Controlled by someone. Like the RBA.
Bitcoin is decentralised. Nobody can control it. It's a unique piece of technology in that respect.

This is, literally, it:
github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin


I watch Max Keiser a bit. Whilst he is pretty unique he is also very successful and is a big bitcoin fan as you probably realise. In the last show I watched he was saying that the Chinese are looking at or developing a bitcoin currency. That may be another reason why the anti China narrative has been ramped up.

evlPanda
NSW, 9052 posts
6 Aug 2020 10:13AM
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^ EOS

Again, using HARROW coin as an example it's a centralised coin. Harrow runs the ledger! He can make new coins, he controls it.

So, how do you create a ledger, harrows' notepad, that nobody can control. It is automated, and utterly secure. Nobody can manipulate it.

Even worse, how does Harrow communicate the state of his notepad ledger to everyone using it? "Yeah, uh see here's a photo that Harrow sent me of the ledger, I have like 50 HARROW coins, so, uh, give me the board and you can have them."

You have to trust both me saying i have harrow coins, and harrow himself.

The communication of this information, the ledger, without needing to rely on trust, is a very hard problem, thought impossible for a while:
The Two General's Problem: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem

...Bitcoin is way deeper than people realise. Way, way, waaaay deeper. It's not an in-game currency or anything even remotely like that.

PrfctChaos
WA, 76 posts
11 Mar 2021 8:27AM
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Ugh, It's so annoying when someone makes a new account to direct you to a website. Hmmm, must be legit. ??

kiterboy
1974 posts
11 Mar 2021 9:33AM
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Hahaha! I LOVE hearing the troglodytes bagging things they don't understand.

evlPanda, you may as well be trying to explain experimental physics to your neighbour's border collie.

Harrow
NSW, 3745 posts
11 Mar 2021 1:37PM
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kiterboy said..
Hahaha! I LOVE hearing the troglodytes bagging things they don't understand.

evlPanda, you may as well be trying to explain experimental physics to your neighbour's border collie.

Just because people disagree with something doesn't mean they don't understand it. It's an interesting concept, but a stupid waste of energy.

kiterboy
1974 posts
11 Mar 2021 12:23PM
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It's ok, you clearly showed that you don't understand it. Nothing to be ashamed about.

FormulaNova
WA, 11898 posts
11 Mar 2021 1:11PM
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kiterboy said..
It's ok, you clearly showed that you don't understand it. Nothing to be ashamed about.


Yeah, that's the way, use the intellectual approach! Good work!

Nah nah, I told you so.

kiterboy
1974 posts
11 Mar 2021 4:19PM
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It's ok, I know you definitely don't understand it.

FormulaNova
WA, 11898 posts
11 Mar 2021 5:31PM
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kiterboy said..
It's ok, I know you definitely don't understand it.


Me, I definitely don't understand it.

What I do think though is that it's like any other currency. Worth only what people are willing to exchange for it. Sure, its traceable to ensure that the person giving you bitcoin actually owns it.

But what if people suddenly realise that its speculation that has pushed up the value? For any other currency you are expecting that the government behind that currency will honor it and exchange it for something else of value.

With Bitcoin, where is that guarantee? If it doesn't exist, it can easily become the Bolivar of Venezuela.

Harrow
NSW, 3745 posts
12 Mar 2021 8:46AM
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kiterboy said..
It's ok, you clearly showed that you don't understand it. Nothing to be ashamed about.

What, because I made a joke post? Decentralised, distributed register, hashed chain of blocks, proof of work, private keys, blah, blah, blah. Sure the maths is hard, but the general concept isn't.

myscreenname
205 posts
14 Mar 2021 10:02AM
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I'd be p155ed if I missed the boat too.
Another ATH today and a market cap of $1 Trillion.

But yeah, it's a huge scam that bitcorn it is



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Bitcoin scams@!" started by FormulaNova