Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Port / Starboard conundrum

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Created by IanR A week ago, 10 Mar 2019
IanR
NSW, 837 posts
10 Mar 2019 8:36PM
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Who was right of way in this one
I have my opinion but would like to hear what others think

www.instagram.com/p/BYHFElTDwH2/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1gyn5ufqmh8n1

hilly
WA, 4510 posts
10 Mar 2019 5:58PM
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IanR said..
Who was right of way in this one
I have my opinion but would like to hear what others think

www.instagram.com/p/BYHFElTDwH2/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1gyn5ufqmh8n1


Ha ha euros gotta lovem. Neither had a clue.

You will say left arm forward. But the downwind aspect of the knob in the air, plus he appeared to come off the land so was he launching? may complicate the equation.

Harrow
NSW, 2535 posts
10 Mar 2019 9:10PM
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Wouldn't left arm forward normally have to give way? That's the port tack, which means the guy coming the other way would should have right of way.

Although I'm not sure what how the rules apply when the starboard tack decides to launch into air and hits the lines of the port tack that otherwise would have missed.

quikdrawMcgraw
952 posts
10 Mar 2019 6:46PM
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The guy on the port tack does a forward roll 360 real smooth landing if it wasn't for the Russian in his lines

Haircut
QLD, 6276 posts
10 Mar 2019 9:08PM
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one forfeits any right of way while airborne and for 5 seconds after landing

simplez

shoodbegood
VIC, 707 posts
10 Mar 2019 10:15PM
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The bloke coming in from the left is the port tacker.

He has to bear off and go under the starboard tacker coming in from the right.

That said............there'd be lot's of kiters that don't come from a sailing background and may not know this?

They're the guys that provide gold material like this !

quikdrawMcgraw
952 posts
10 Mar 2019 7:17PM
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shoodbegood said..

The bloke coming in from the left is the port tacker.

He has to bear off and go under the starboard tacker coming in from the right.

That said............there'd be lot's of kiters that don't come from a sailing background and may not know this?

They're the guys that provide gold material like this !


Left? You mean the guy not in the air is on the port tack

shoodbegood
VIC, 707 posts
10 Mar 2019 10:41PM
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Ha! Oops, I would of had a crash !

Yep. The bloke on the right !

cauncy
WA, 6951 posts
10 Mar 2019 8:20PM
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No RED port left
simple

Shifu
QLD, 1021 posts
11 Mar 2019 11:14AM
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I can't answer. I'm too busy laughing.

Imax1
VIC, 1724 posts
11 Mar 2019 12:19PM
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None of them have to give way , for they are kiters !

cauncy
WA, 6951 posts
11 Mar 2019 10:55AM
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How boring would that video of been if they just cruised past each other smiling and giving a wave, much more entertaining with a possibility of a good old ding dong on the beach

juicyfruit
35 posts
11 Mar 2019 11:08AM
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LOL ya plays with wires ya get burned..

japie
QLD, 4710 posts
11 Mar 2019 1:08PM
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Neat

rockmagnet
QLD, 1141 posts
11 Mar 2019 4:43PM
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Shifu said..
I can't answer. I'm too busy laughing.


I'd pay money to see it live.

cisco
QLD, 10954 posts
11 Mar 2019 10:51PM
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As it is to do with kiting it is obviously a dick/ego question.

If you want to get technical this is the link you need to look up.

www.amsa.gov.au/legislation

FormulaNova
NSW, 8045 posts
12 Mar 2019 12:44AM
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Haircut said..
one forfeits any right of way while airborne and for 5 seconds after landing

simplez



I was thinking about this while kiting today. I agree with what you have said, but I was wondering if there was any support for it in the Colregs.

It seems there is, in a way.

The guy that was on the starboard tack had right of way, and the guy on the port tack is meant to give way. Which he did, but the guy on starboard tack wasn't maintaining his course. You can't just do what you want when you are on starboard. You can't just decide you want to boost downwind or even veer downwind while still on the water. You are meant to keep your course, not just change it randomly.

"16. The give-way vessel
The give-way vessel must take early and substantial action to keep well clear.[11][page needed]

17. The stand-on vessel
The stand-on vessel shall maintain her course and speed, but she may take action to avoid collision if it becomes clear that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action, or when so close that collision can no longer be avoided by the actions of the give-way vessel alone. In a crossing situation, the stand-on vessel should avoid turning to port even if the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action. These options for the stand-on vessel do not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligations under the rules."

P.S. I can imagine the fun I will have tomorrow as I kite along on starboard tack and then run down wind to try and make them move out of my way. I don't think I will succeed.

harry potter
VIC, 2510 posts
12 Mar 2019 8:31PM
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Initially the starboard tack has right of way ... however the onus is on both helmsmen to do everything to avoid a collision... you can't just scream "starboard" and crash into someone

515
103 posts
12 Mar 2019 6:01PM
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"Avoid collisions "!
I remember getting frustrated when orewa beach kite population grew and ducking lines.

Mark _australia
WA, 18813 posts
12 Mar 2019 6:42PM
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I agree with Formula Nova and other to a degree......... however this is a short video not showing the lead up - a lead-up that would have been anything up to 10-30sec and 100 - 800m ish.

Both of them are fkn idiots as there is no need for kiters to ever pass within 10m of each other, as this vid shows.
About 10sec / 200m earlier both should have eyeballed each other, the guy on starboard maintains his course and the guy on port moves if need be. About 100-50m in they do the same again.

That visual engagement and ROW should happen anywhere up to 50x in a session for every kiter and windsurfer. Cockheads who need a big wakeup call and hopefully that crash was it.

(BTW does anyone know what "shetaveevee" means? Hopefully its foreign for "I'm sick of showboaters who don't GAF about others")

FormulaNova
NSW, 8045 posts
13 Mar 2019 2:14AM
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Mark _australia said..

Both of them are fkn idiots as there is no need for kiters to ever pass within 10m of each other, as this vid shows.
About 10sec / 200m earlier both should have eyeballed each other, the guy on starboard maintains his course and the guy on port moves if need be. About 100-50m in they do the same again.





You know, before I took up kiting, I used to think kiters at the pond purposely got close or in the way of windsurfers (me) because they wanted to. Also, the jumping without looking thing seemed pretty stupid.

Now, after finally spending a decent amount of time kiting, its clear that its not windsurfers they are targetting, they just do that, and I am guessing its because they are optimistic or ignorant of the risk. I have been kiting in a beginners area and you get people doing jumps within 10 metres of shore, people turning all the time without looking, and people getting too close. These are not the beginners, these are the other people passing through or hanging around that area.

Now, me, I'm a wuss when it comes to these things. I'm on starboard tack, and the other guy's coming towards me on port, and there's yet another person upwind on port. No one seems to want to be cautious. Me, I will head downwind as its easy and get out of there. Why get so close when you don't need to. You don't know if the guy upwind of you is in complete perfect control of his kite or a newbie that's not sure of what he's doing. So why risk it, especially when you can kite well enough to get upwind and turn easily?

One thing again that really surprised me is that windsurfing in the pond I look around, and I can hear when my mate is catching up with me because of the sound of the board on the water. I had assumed it was a problem for kiters to hear it. Nope, its just as obvious to a kiter. I can hear other kiters approach me and windsurfing boards are even more obvious. I don't think I have ever seen a kiter turn around when they hear another board behind them.

lotofwind
NSW, 4943 posts
13 Mar 2019 4:14PM
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I think the only problem there was he didn't pop high enough to clear the other kiters lines, then it would have been sweet. But not as funny to watch.

beefarmer
WA, 230 posts
14 Mar 2019 9:39PM
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whats starboard?

just kidding, but seriously, we're not sailors, why do people always pull out sailing rules? not ones paying any attention to them, except the seabreeze whinge squadron and some windsurfers.

if someones on a wave, port/starboard doesnt count...

newb kiter/windsurfer doesnt know the sailing rules, port/ starboard doesnt count...

newb kiter/windsurfer going flat out, outta control... port startboard dont count

selfish prick showpony kiter doing a backroll? .... showpony windsurfer lining up a sweet double forward..... doesnt count...

someone (like me) gets my left and right confused easy enough, starboard/port doesnt count... or it does, but id get it wrong anyway ;)

the guys in the vid? clearly regardless of port/starboard rules, the bloke doing the backroll shouldnt have been jumping around that close to other people, so looks like its his fault. But i agree we're not seeing the full picture from that short clip

anyhoot my point is if anyones zooming around kiting/windsurfing and assuming everyone else on the port/starboard tack will give way to them, theyre waiting for an accident to happen... so just give people space.... easiest thing to do. the earlier, the better.

Subsonic
WA, 1517 posts
14 Mar 2019 10:28PM
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beefarmer said..
whats starboard?

just kidding, but seriously, we're not sailors, why do people always pull out sailing rules? not ones paying any attention to them, except the seabreeze whinge squadron and some windsurfers.

if someones on a wave, port/starboard doesnt count...

newb kiter/windsurfer doesnt know the sailing rules, port/ starboard doesnt count...

newb kiter/windsurfer going flat out, outta control... port startboard dont count

selfish prick showpony kiter doing a backroll? .... showpony windsurfer lining up a sweet double forward..... doesnt count...

someone (like me) gets my left and right confused easy enough, starboard/port doesnt count... or it does, but id get it wrong anyway ;)

the guys in the vid? clearly regardless of port/starboard rules, the bloke doing the backroll shouldnt have been jumping around that close to other people, so looks like its his fault. But i agree we're not seeing the full picture from that short clip

anyhoot my point is if anyones zooming around kiting/windsurfing and assuming everyone else on the port/starboard tack will give way to them, theyre waiting for an accident to happen... so just give people space.... easiest thing to do. the earlier, the better.



To a degree you are correct. Chances are both these kiters walked away none the wiser to the rules, only one with a bruised ego. And that is the way things generally go.

another scenario: someone goes to hospital with serious injuries. Those rules that don't matter suddenly do matter. You go to court over something like this, "ignorance is no excuse", so the saying goes.

beefarmer
WA, 230 posts
15 Mar 2019 12:01AM
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i think those passing rules could matter, in some situations

like if a kiter gets tangled up with a yacht for example

or even two kiters in open water somewhere - maybe

but if there was an accident between kiters or windsurfers, in the wave zone of a surfbreak... serious injuries and litigation to follow... would a judge really pull out the international sailing rule book to decide the outcome? has this ever happened before?

I don't know, im just guessing, but id imagine the general principle of duty of care to those around you would almost always prevail over a rule set for a different activity, that most people dont understand, that is inconsistent and misunderstood.

imagine the scenario of someone going flat tack through the surf zone, mowing down a newbie riding a wave, and then saying to the judge

"I had right of way your honour, looks it says so right here in the ISA sailing rule book".

I don't think it would cut it....

FormulaNova
NSW, 8045 posts
15 Mar 2019 3:07AM
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Yeah, I think you are right, but the collision regs also have some ultimate rule that you must do what you can to avoid a collision, even though before then the two 'vessels' are supposed to act differently.

Subsonic
WA, 1517 posts
Friday , 15 Mar 2019 7:16AM
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beefarmer said..
i think those passing rules could matter, in some situations

like if a kiter gets tangled up with a yacht for example

or even two kiters in open water somewhere - maybe

but if there was an accident between kiters or windsurfers, in the wave zone of a surfbreak... serious injuries and litigation to follow... would a judge really pull out the international sailing rule book to decide the outcome? has this ever happened before?

I don't know, im just guessing, but id imagine the general principle of duty of care to those around you would almost always prevail over a rule set for a different activity, that most people dont understand, that is inconsistent and misunderstood.

imagine the scenario of someone going flat tack through the surf zone, mowing down a newbie riding a wave, and then saying to the judge

"I had right of way your honour, looks it says so right here in the ISA sailing rule book".

I don't think it would cut it....



The end game is they regard us as vessels and as such we're subject to the rules, whether we like it or not. An impact between us is less likely to be as catastrophic than two boats colliding for sure, but if someone gets injured/it goes to court, they will look to apportion blame. The col regs are what they will look at. Surf rules dont count, as much as they can make sense to us.

One of the col regs actually covers that scenario you stated. It puts the onus on the right of way vessel to avoid a collision if its clear the give way is not.

best bet is to stay away from others if you plan on doing tricks, or its clear that they're green.

Marsbars
361 posts
Friday , 15 Mar 2019 7:31AM
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I am sort of having this conundrum giving driving lessons to my kid. Finding it hard to get through that even though you have right of way it is better to be cautious as no matter how right you are it hurts less giving way to a tard than being busted up lying in a hospital bed.

Rus13b
NSW, 232 posts
Friday , 15 Mar 2019 10:37AM
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if u don't know the difference between port & starboard, get the fxck off the water.
do u drive down the road not knowing the rules ffs.

Sirwalker
QLD, 2 posts
Friday , 15 Mar 2019 1:33PM
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Interesting later references to driving... Many respondents have mentioned the "right of way" concept. As I understand it, this is a fallacy with roots in the past . In QLD at least I'm almost certain you will find no reference to "right of way" as a rule to guide your driving and probably sailing. Driving requires you to follow a particular set of rules for particular circumstances, however at no time are you permitted to force your technical priority to the point where you , and your antagonist, cause an accident or even force them to take violent evasive action with whatever consequences that flow. In other words you need to be aware of evolving and fluid circumstances that may require you to take evasive action even if someone else is making a hash of it. Police etc are quite happy to apportion responsibility to both parties under the due care and attention banner. The message is , as was mentioned earlier, to take reasonable steps to avoid the conflict , which implies that you need to be aware of your surroundings at all times. Of course if someone's out to get you, you may have a reasonable defence.

Rus13b
NSW, 232 posts
Saturday , 16 Mar 2019 10:19AM
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There are rules for the water & they will apply in court, if u end up there. So ppl should go lern them before taking a hero attitude to the water. U need a licence to operate a boat faster than 8kts. Ppl should also know all the markers in water, they are the same as road signs, in a court of law. Dumbass's be aware



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Port / Starboard conundrum" started by IanR