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Bar Throw / trim Question

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Created by Sandfoot Two weeks ago, 2 Apr 2019
Sandfoot
VIC, 315 posts
2 Apr 2019 5:52PM
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I'm looking for a set of bar and lines with long bar throw and a good amount of trim. 24 Meters.

I'm using a seat harness which holds the hook lower than a waist. The result is the bar will max out against the stopper when powered up.

Do the manufacturers differ the length of bar throw? Ive used the click bar but didnt like the click system, i dont think a race bar would be all that safe with the long depower line flopping around.

At the moment I'm using a wakestyle chicken loop on a Ozone contact bar.

Using Ozone & Cabrinha kites.

Cheers

toppleover
QLD, 1496 posts
2 Apr 2019 6:11PM
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IMO the Click & OR Shift bars have by far the most available trim.

Sandfoot
VIC, 315 posts
2 Apr 2019 7:47PM
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toppleover said..
IMO the Click & OR Shift bars have by far the most available trim.




Thanks, I used the click bar and found it had a heap of bar throw and a decent amount of depower, I wasn't good with the winding post.

MikeyG
WA, 100 posts
2 Apr 2019 6:23PM
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Airush Ultra Bar. Huge amount of throw and small chicken loop. It's designed for the Ultra Kite. I bought in error (idiot!) but I now love it!

The bar is super simple, however no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach. However with the throw of the bar, I've never found it to be an issue. You can almost completely back the power off the kite even in the biggest gust. It's great!

EastCC
QLD, 275 posts
2 Apr 2019 8:33PM
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Sandfoot said..
Thanks, I used the click bar and found it had a heap of bar throw and a decent amount of depower, I wasn't good with the winding post.



Tried the Ocean Rodeo Shift Bar? Huge amount of throw available - adjustable stopper.

Peahi
VIC, 1035 posts
2 Apr 2019 10:41PM
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I am using a trimlite bar which has heaps of throw but I can still reach easily as I have no hook or loop, safety release attached directly to rope spreader. More throw would be good but then I would not be able to reach the bar.

Apparently the recoil bar has more throw when spring compressed (there was a thread about this), but the spring keeps the bar in reach.

natho6026961
WA, 14 posts
2 Apr 2019 8:20PM
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MikeyG said...
...
no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach.


what the....? really? I have an Ultra kite but use an Ozone bar. Can't imagine not being able to trim on the fly. Weird. But I guess you thought the same at first.

MikeyG
WA, 100 posts
2 Apr 2019 8:41PM
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natho6026961 said..

MikeyG said...
...
no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach.



what the....? really? I have an Ultra kite but use an Ozone bar. Can't imagine not being able to trim on the fly. Weird. But I guess you thought the same at first.


Yep - here's the link. airush.com/kites/ultra-bar/

I've got the Ultra kites too. They're great!

simon78
21 posts
3 Apr 2019 2:31PM
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I think the kite determines how much depower throw and trim adjustment is required in the bar.

I use the knot adjustments at the kite to compensate for stretch in the front lines( oversheeting rather than undersheeting) and the trim adjustment at the bar to fine tune it to what I want on the day, having launching the kite.

toppleover
QLD, 1496 posts
3 Apr 2019 6:10PM
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natho6026961 said..

MikeyG said...
...
no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach.



what the....? really? I have an Ultra kite but use an Ozone bar. Can't imagine not being able to trim on the fly. Weird. But I guess you thought the same at first.


It's a fairly simple process to mod any bar to function like the Ultra bar.
I've done it now to my Cab Trimlight & previously Switch C3 bar.

The Ocean Rodeo Shift & whoever makes the Click bar now are still a better option, if you can afford it.

toppleover
QLD, 1496 posts
3 Apr 2019 6:10PM
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natho6026961 said..


MikeyG said...
...
no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach.




what the....? really? I have an Ultra kite but use an Ozone bar. Can't imagine not being able to trim on the fly. Weird. But I guess you thought the same at first.



It's a fairly simple process to mod any bar to function like the Ultra bar.
I've done it now to my Cab Trimlight & previously Switch C3 bar.

The Ocean Rodeo Shift & whoever makes the Click bar now imo are still a better option, if you can afford it.

decay
69 posts
3 Apr 2019 8:31PM
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MikeyG said..
Airush Ultra Bar. Huge amount of throw and small chicken loop. It's designed for the Ultra Kite. I bought in error (idiot!) but I now love it!

The bar is super simple, however no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach. However with the throw of the bar, I've never found it to be an issue. You can almost completely back the power off the kite even in the biggest gust. It's great!


Glad you like it MikeyG! This one was a personal project of mine.

The Ultra Bar wasn't so much designed FOR the Ultra kite, more it runs in the same PHILOSOPHY of the Ultra kite - getting rid of weight and un-needed parts to make something as simple, light and clean as possible. I personally use it across all my kites - ie Union for freestyle, Wave for the surf and Lithium for big air.

What I did with the design was delete the 10cm of trim usually found in the strap/cleat of a Airush Core series bar and ADD this length to the throw of the bar instead. The result is if the bar is against the top stopper the trim of the kite is the same as a Core bar with the bar out and the strap pulled completely in. This gives all of the range of bar with trim at any time without the need to adjust anything.

For sure it isn't the bar for everyone, but there is a select few that know it/use it and absolutely love it.

Cheers

DK
Airush Product Engineer

Ozone Kites Aus
NSW, 749 posts
Site Sponsor
5 Apr 2019 10:34AM
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Sandfoot said..
I'm looking for a set of bar and lines with long bar throw and a good amount of trim. 24 Meters.

I'm using a seat harness which holds the hook lower than a waist. The result is the bar will max out against the stopper when powered up.

Do the manufacturers differ the length of bar throw? Ive used the click bar but didnt like the click system, i dont think a race bar would be all that safe with the long depower line flopping around.

At the moment I'm using a wakestyle chicken loop on a Ozone contact bar.

Using Ozone & Cabrinha kites.

Cheers


Do you really need a long throw bar?
Whenever I've flown any kite more than half depowered and if the winds stays that strong I'll go and change down a kite size. Why? Because a mega depowered kite flys like crap, there is so much rear line slack that you can't steer it properly and the power from the kite surges a lot when its trimmed like this so you are way better off going and rigging the right size kite.
Ozone kites are definitely not designed for long throw bars.

warwickl
NSW, 1126 posts
5 Apr 2019 10:47AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
decay said..

MikeyG said..
Airush Ultra Bar. Huge amount of throw and small chicken loop. It's designed for the Ultra Kite. I bought in error (idiot!) but I now love it!

The bar is super simple, however no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach. However with the throw of the bar, I've never found it to be an issue. You can almost completely back the power off the kite even in the biggest gust. It's great!



Glad you like it MikeyG! This one was a personal project of mine.

The Ultra Bar wasn't so much designed FOR the Ultra kite, more it runs in the same PHILOSOPHY of the Ultra kite - getting rid of weight and un-needed parts to make something as simple, light and clean as possible. I personally use it across all my kites - ie Union for freestyle, Wave for the surf and Lithium for big air.

What I did with the design was delete the 10cm of trim usually found in the strap/cleat of a Airush Core series bar and ADD this length to the throw of the bar instead. The result is if the bar is against the top stopper the trim of the kite is the same as a Core bar with the bar out and the strap pulled completely in. This gives all of the range of bar with trim at any time without the need to adjust anything.

For sure it isn't the bar for everyone, but there is a select few that know it/use it and absolutely love it.

Cheers

DK
Airush Product Engineer



I think Cloud kites have been doing this for years or similar.

toppleover
QLD, 1496 posts
5 Apr 2019 10:25AM
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Ozone Kites Aus said..

Sandfoot said..
I'm looking for a set of bar and lines with long bar throw and a good amount of trim. 24 Meters.

I'm using a seat harness which holds the hook lower than a waist. The result is the bar will max out against the stopper when powered up.

Do the manufacturers differ the length of bar throw? Ive used the click bar but didnt like the click system, i dont think a race bar would be all that safe with the long depower line flopping around.

At the moment I'm using a wakestyle chicken loop on a Ozone contact bar.

Using Ozone & Cabrinha kites.

Cheers



Do you really need a long throw bar?
Whenever I've flown any kite more than half depowered and if the winds stays that strong I'll go and change down a kite size. Why? Because a mega depowered kite flys like crap, there is so much rear line slack that you can't steer it properly and the power from the kite surges a lot when its trimmed like this so you are way better off going and rigging the right size kite.
Ozone kites are definitely not designed for long throw bars.


Have you ever flown a kite in it's correct wind range with a long throw bar ?

I've flown a Reo on my custom bar & it flew great, I couldn't get used to using the standard Ozone bar as I found it didnt have enough throw.

IMO, It's not about getting more depower, it's about getting more control.

snalberski
WA, 624 posts
5 Apr 2019 9:17AM
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Sandfoot said..
I'm looking for a set of bar and lines with long bar throw and a good amount of trim. 24 Meters.

I'm using a seat harness which holds the hook lower than a waist. The result is the bar will max out against the stopper when powered up.

Do the manufacturers differ the length of bar throw? Ive used the click bar but didnt like the click system, i dont think a race bar would be all that safe with the long depower line flopping around.

At the moment I'm using a wakestyle chicken loop on a Ozone contact bar.

Using Ozone & Cabrinha kites.

Cheers


The Slingshot Compstick Sentinel has a moveable cleat
that allows the user to set the throw to their preference. That depower/mainline system style was used by most manufacturers previously but has now been replaced by most with PU covered single mainline style which means no repositioning of the cleat is practical without other modifications, but still doeable.
Your contact bar will allow
a longer throw by repacing the mainline with a 5 or 6 mm length of dynema to the required length. You won't have the bungy section in the depower rope part of the line and you will need appropriate length pigtails on the leader lines. You can still cover the line in PU or just leave it clean and waxed.

Ozone Kites Aus
NSW, 749 posts
Site Sponsor
5 Apr 2019 1:18PM
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toppleover said..

Ozone Kites Aus said..


Sandfoot said..
I'm looking for a set of bar and lines with long bar throw and a good amount of trim. 24 Meters.

I'm using a seat harness which holds the hook lower than a waist. The result is the bar will max out against the stopper when powered up.

Do the manufacturers differ the length of bar throw? Ive used the click bar but didnt like the click system, i dont think a race bar would be all that safe with the long depower line flopping around.

At the moment I'm using a wakestyle chicken loop on a Ozone contact bar.

Using Ozone & Cabrinha kites.

Cheers




Do you really need a long throw bar?
Whenever I've flown any kite more than half depowered and if the winds stays that strong I'll go and change down a kite size. Why? Because a mega depowered kite flys like crap, there is so much rear line slack that you can't steer it properly and the power from the kite surges a lot when its trimmed like this so you are way better off going and rigging the right size kite.
Ozone kites are definitely not designed for long throw bars.



Have you ever flown a kite in it's correct wind range with a long throw bar ?

I've flown a Reo on my custom bar & it flew great, I couldn't get used to using the standard Ozone bar as I found it didnt have enough throw.

IMO, It's not about getting more depower, it's about getting more control.


Yes I have flown an Ozone Reo on a non Ozone bar with a long throw, it was a cabrinha bar. Kite worked fine, but the extra throw was useless. If you put a long throw bar on a kite designed for short throw, you just end up with a kite that has super loose rear lines and that leads to loff of control which is the opposite of what you seem to think it give you?
Reo's are designed to have a short depower range, so you can easily switch off the power of the kite once you are on a wave, this design is built into the kite frame/canopy/bridle.
Other Ozone kites have a longer depower throw, but none of them benefit from putting them on bars that have extra long depower like the cab bar.
Each to their own though. I do know of one kitesurf wave rider in Sydney who has a cab fireball setup on his Ozone Reo's, he has removed the trim cleat completely and has a crazy long depower throw and thats how he rides, but he also rides the biggest gnarliest waves of anyone I know.

Sandfoot
VIC, 315 posts
5 Apr 2019 5:35PM
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Ozone Kites Aus said..
toppleover said..

Ozone Kites Aus said..


Sandfoot said..
I'm looking for a set of bar and lines with long bar throw and a good amount of trim. 24 Meters.

I'm using a seat harness which holds the hook lower than a waist. The result is the bar will max out against the stopper when powered up.

Do the manufacturers differ the length of bar throw? Ive used the click bar but didnt like the click system, i dont think a race bar would be all that safe with the long depower line flopping around.

At the moment I'm using a wakestyle chicken loop on a Ozone contact bar.

Using Ozone & Cabrinha kites.

Cheers




Do you really need a long throw bar?
Whenever I've flown any kite more than half depowered and if the winds stays that strong I'll go and change down a kite size. Why? Because a mega depowered kite flys like crap, there is so much rear line slack that you can't steer it properly and the power from the kite surges a lot when its trimmed like this so you are way better off going and rigging the right size kite.
Ozone kites are definitely not designed for long throw bars.



Have you ever flown a kite in it's correct wind range with a long throw bar ?

I've flown a Reo on my custom bar & it flew great, I couldn't get used to using the standard Ozone bar as I found it didnt have enough throw.

IMO, It's not about getting more depower, it's about getting more control.


Yes I have flown an Ozone Reo on a non Ozone bar with a long throw, it was a cabrinha bar. Kite worked fine, but the extra throw was useless. If you put a long throw bar on a kite designed for short throw, you just end up with a kite that has super loose rear lines and that leads to loff of control which is the opposite of what you seem to think it give you?
Reo's are designed to have a short depower range, so you can easily switch off the power of the kite once you are on a wave, this design is built into the kite frame/canopy/bridle.
Other Ozone kites have a longer depower throw, but none of them benefit from putting them on bars that have extra long depower like the cab bar.
Each to their own though. I do know of one kitesurf wave rider in Sydney who has a cab fireball setup on his Ozone Reo's, he has removed the trim cleat completely and has a crazy long depower throw and thats how he rides, but he also rides the biggest gnarliest waves of anyone I know.


Thanks for the feed back - dont forget because I'm in a seat harness -( the NP with tracker) I loose about one third of the depower stroke before I'm even riding because the Quick release is low down around my hips, I also have to shorten the rear lines to get the bar at around chin level- it almost impossible to unhook in a seat, the kite just falls out of the sky !

Alex at KPSS helped me out today and we got the measurements from where the chicken loop touches the harness hook up to the end of the bar throw, turns out the Cabrinha trim lite has as much trow as my Ozone with a wakestyle loop so will give the trim lite a go.

Thanks for every ones help Cheers

Gorgo
VIC, 4134 posts
5 Apr 2019 5:55PM
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Sandfoot said..

....

Thanks for the feed back - dont forget because I'm in a seat harness -( the NP with tracker) I loose about one third of the depower stroke before I'm even riding because the Quick release is low down around my hips, I also have to shorten the rear lines to get the bar at around chin level- it almost impossible to unhook in a seat, the kite just falls out of the sky !

....


Why do you say that a with a seat harness you lose one third of the depower stroke? It's not true.

The throw is the length of the depower line. You have all that throw whether you're using a seat harness or a waist harness. True the bottom of the throw is down around your belly button with a seat harness as opposed to the base of your sternum with a waist harness. It could feel a little uncomfortable riding with the bar pulled in all the way. The total distance available is unchanged.

In fact, if you have short arms and can't reach the bar at full extent, then you get a longer throw with a seat harness. The bar is closer to you at full extent and easier to reach with short arms.

Sandfoot
VIC, 315 posts
5 Apr 2019 6:11PM
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Gorgo said..
Sandfoot said..

....

Thanks for the feed back - dont forget because I'm in a seat harness -( the NP with tracker) I loose about one third of the depower stroke before I'm even riding because the Quick release is low down around my hips, I also have to shorten the rear lines to get the bar at around chin level- it almost impossible to unhook in a seat, the kite just falls out of the sky !

....


Why do you say that a with a seat harness you lose one third of the depower stroke? It's not true.

The throw is the length of the depower line. You have all that throw whether you're using a seat harness or a waist harness. True the bottom of the throw is down around your belly button with a seat harness as opposed to the base of your sternum with a waist harness. It could feel a little uncomfortable riding with the bar pulled in all the way. The total distance available is unchanged.

In fact, if you have short arms and can't reach the bar at full extent, then you get a longer throw with a seat harness. The bar is closer to you at full extent and easier to reach with short arms.


Yeah Sure I can see your POV, dont forget to get good back line tension I then need to shorten the back lines of any kite I use to the shortest setting plus around 5cm to get the bar back to chin height ! other wise I dont get boost or quick steering so this moves the bar up the depower line, plus I like to be powered up anyway.

Its mainly through a loop and back roll kite loop and in some of the big gusty northlies I max out the travel....which makes progressing to a big air kite loop frickern scary and dangerous hence I'm fixing the problem

Kamikuza
QLD, 3754 posts
5 Apr 2019 5:24PM
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I'll take what is the trim system for $200, Alex.

toppleover
QLD, 1496 posts
5 Apr 2019 7:15PM
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Ozone Kites Aus said..



toppleover said..




Ozone Kites Aus said..





Sandfoot said..
I'm looking for a set of bar and lines with long bar throw and a good amount of trim. 24 Meters.

I'm using a seat harness which holds the hook lower than a waist. The result is the bar will max out against the stopper when powered up.

Do the manufacturers differ the length of bar throw? Ive used the click bar but didnt like the click system, i dont think a race bar would be all that safe with the long depower line flopping around.

At the moment I'm using a wakestyle chicken loop on a Ozone contact bar.

Using Ozone & Cabrinha kites.

Cheers







Do you really need a long throw bar?
Whenever I've flown any kite more than half depowered and if the winds stays that strong I'll go and change down a kite size. Why? Because a mega depowered kite flys like crap, there is so much rear line slack that you can't steer it properly and the power from the kite surges a lot when its trimmed like this so you are way better off going and rigging the right size kite.
Ozone kites are definitely not designed for long throw bars.






Have you ever flown a kite in it's correct wind range with a long throw bar ?

I've flown a Reo on my custom bar & it flew great, I couldn't get used to using the standard Ozone bar as I found it didnt have enough throw.

IMO, It's not about getting more depower, it's about getting more control.





Yes I have flown an Ozone Reo on a non Ozone bar with a long throw, it was a cabrinha bar. Kite worked fine, but the extra throw was useless. If you put a long throw bar on a kite designed for short throw, you just end up with a kite that has super loose rear lines and that leads to loff of control which is the opposite of what you seem to think it give you?

Other Ozone kites have a longer depower throw, but none of them benefit from putting them on bars that have extra long depower like the cab bar.
Each to their own though. I do know of one kitesurf wave rider in Sydney who has a cab fireball setup on his Ozone Reo's, he has removed the trim cleat completely and has a crazy long depower throw and thats how he rides, but he also rides.




You obviously have not used a bar with long throw, as the Cab bars don't have any where near the throw I'm talking about. The only factory example I can think of is the BRM CCS bar.
That's why I had to remove the trim cleat completely on my Cab Trimlight bar but as you say, each to their own.

decay
69 posts
5 Apr 2019 6:07PM
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Select to expand quote
warwickl said..

decay said..


MikeyG said..
Airush Ultra Bar. Huge amount of throw and small chicken loop. It's designed for the Ultra Kite. I bought in error (idiot!) but I now love it!

The bar is super simple, however no adjustment to lines when you're out. You need to adjust the lines when on the beach. However with the throw of the bar, I've never found it to be an issue. You can almost completely back the power off the kite even in the biggest gust. It's great!




Glad you like it MikeyG! This one was a personal project of mine.

The Ultra Bar wasn't so much designed FOR the Ultra kite, more it runs in the same PHILOSOPHY of the Ultra kite - getting rid of weight and un-needed parts to make something as simple, light and clean as possible. I personally use it across all my kites - ie Union for freestyle, Wave for the surf and Lithium for big air.

What I did with the design was delete the 10cm of trim usually found in the strap/cleat of a Airush Core series bar and ADD this length to the throw of the bar instead. The result is if the bar is against the top stopper the trim of the kite is the same as a Core bar with the bar out and the strap pulled completely in. This gives all of the range of bar with trim at any time without the need to adjust anything.

For sure it isn't the bar for everyone, but there is a select few that know it/use it and absolutely love it.

Cheers

DK
Airush Product Engineer




I think Cloud kites have been doing this for years or similar.


Yeah, tho not exactly the same setup Greg's bar was one of the influences leading to Ultrabar.

Personally I've been running long throw/trimless bars for 4 years now on a massive range of different kites and don't miss the clutter at all.

Cheers

DK

weebitbreezy
387 posts
5 Apr 2019 6:38PM
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Select to expand quote
Sandfoot said..

Gorgo said..

Sandfoot said..

....

Thanks for the feed back - dont forget because I'm in a seat harness -( the NP with tracker) I loose about one third of the depower stroke before I'm even riding because the Quick release is low down around my hips, I also have to shorten the rear lines to get the bar at around chin level- it almost impossible to unhook in a seat, the kite just falls out of the sky !

....



Why do you say that a with a seat harness you lose one third of the depower stroke? It's not true.

The throw is the length of the depower line. You have all that throw whether you're using a seat harness or a waist harness. True the bottom of the throw is down around your belly button with a seat harness as opposed to the base of your sternum with a waist harness. It could feel a little uncomfortable riding with the bar pulled in all the way. The total distance available is unchanged.

In fact, if you have short arms and can't reach the bar at full extent, then you get a longer throw with a seat harness. The bar is closer to you at full extent and easier to reach with short arms.



Yeah Sure I can see your POV, dont forget to get good back line tension I then need to shorten the back lines of any kite I use to the shortest setting plus around 5cm to get the bar back to chin height ! other wise I dont get boost or quick steering so this moves the bar up the depower line, plus I like to be powered up anyway.

Its mainly through a loop and back roll kite loop and in some of the big gusty northlies I max out the travel....which makes progressing to a big air kite loop frickern scary and dangerous hence I'm fixing the problem


Have you tried a larger chicken loop? The wakestyle loop for ozone for example should add an extra couple of inches between harness and bar. All you really need is to be able to get maximum turn on one side of the bar without it getting caught.

If you try and ride higher up the bar throw you'll end up needing to add line extensions to the front lines so that you can still get maximum sheeting in your comfortable stance (i.e. if you plan on never using the bottom 6 inches of throw then extend by a similar amount). If you are trying to loop without having the bar fully in you're going to have a more powerful loop so you really want to make sure you can get max turning speed out of your kite if you need it.

Interesting problem you have though. I personally find a seat harness takes the bar further away from me ( because the harness hook is further from my shoulders) but I guess if depends if you ride with the kite high or not?



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"Bar Throw / trim Question" started by Sandfoot