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Rebel 2013, 5th line wrap, inversion

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Created by Akwa > 9 months ago, 10 Dec 2012
Akwa
WA, 255 posts
10 Dec 2012 10:19AM
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Hi guys,

I'm getting in to jumping and backrolls at the moment which obviously results in me crashing the kite every once and a while.

I ride a 2013 rebel and absolutely love it. Its quick, good power, easy relaunch etc etc. I however have one problem with it. Sometimes when I crash it, it folds in on itself and the fifth line wraps around the outside of it or my kite inverts which both bring along their obvious issues.

I pump up my kite hard and always do the tapping and wingtip check. I also try to steer my board upwind to tension my lines when my kite hits the water to try and avoid my lines from slacking.

has anyone encountered this issue with the new rebels and is there anything else I can do to prevent this from happening? Can I rig it differently?

BrisKites
QLD, 1242 posts
10 Dec 2012 12:26PM
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I doubt it's your kite. This is a common issue when learning to jump, especially whilst learning backrolls.
Re-direct the kite once at the top of your jump and make sure you don't land with the kite behind your direction of travel.
This should fix the issue.

Jas

Akwa
WA, 255 posts
10 Dec 2012 10:31AM
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BrisKites said...
I doubt it's your kite. This is a common issue when learning to jump, especially whilst learning backrolls.
Re-direct the kite once at the top of your jump and make sure you don't land with the kite behind your direction of travel.
This should fix the issue.

Jas


Well... yes off course it is me who crashes the kite or makes a mistake, but when the kite hits the water it is not supposed to invert or wrap a line on the outside right?

I do redirect it but sometimes I redirect too far and it hits the water which (occasionally) results in it inverting.

Shouldnt there be a way to keep it from wrapping when it hits the water?

SugarQube
WA, 486 posts
10 Dec 2012 10:48AM
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I have a kite that comes with a 5th line safety to the middle strut, luckily I can take it off and reconect it to a front line pigtail with this specific design,

The Rebel is a great kite, but in this case your stuck with the wrap around issue, its been coverd plenty of times before. Just dont drop the kite and especially in waves

sebol
WA, 747 posts
10 Dec 2012 10:52AM
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If it has a 5th line, it will get wrapped around, that simple.
Usually makes great flying kites but th price to pay is the kite wraping itself in the 5th line when it rolls.

cbulota
WA, 1207 posts
10 Dec 2012 10:53AM
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Try keeping your kite lower when you go for your backroll and don't sent it to 12. This will work on your pop rather than relying on the lift of the kite and builds much better technique for future tricks. If you don't send your kite to 12 during the rotation this kite inversion can't happen. The reason the kite inverts is that you probably get lifted higher than you want and as a result you sheet out the bar when the kite is above your head and your heading downwind fast. This causes the kite to fall down from the sky and invert. It's also more likely to invert when the winds are lighter. For any tricks which involve sending the kite at 12' to get more lift it's best to keep the bar sheeted in and you have to redirect the kite aggressively before landing (or loop it) to avoid inversion.

This inversion would happen regardless of your kite brand or model, it's just more of a pain with the fifth line wrapped around but similar problems can happen on 4 lines kite as well.

Akwa
WA, 255 posts
10 Dec 2012 10:53AM
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SugarQube said...
I have a kite that comes with a 5th line safety to the middle strut, luckily I can take it off and reconect it to a front line pigtail with this specific design,

The Rebel is a great kite, but in this case your stuck with the wrap around issue, its been coverd plenty of times before. Just dont drop the kite and especially in waves


hmm that sucks.. yeah it's a good motivation not to crash it haha but it also keeps me from going hard.

I'm considering trading it in for the evo to prevent this issue

Akwa
WA, 255 posts
10 Dec 2012 11:03AM
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cbulota said...
Try keeping your kite lower when you go for your backroll and don't sent it to 12. This will work on your pop rather than relying on the lift of the kite and builds much better technique for future tricks. If you don't send your kite to 12 during the rotation this kite inversion can't happen. The reason the kite inverts is that you probably get lifted higher than you want and as a result you sheet out the bar when the kite is above your head and your heading downwind fast. This causes the kite to fall down from the sky and invert. It's also more likely to invert when the winds are lighter. For any tricks which involve sending the kite at 12' to get more lift it's best to keep the bar sheeted in and you have to redirect the kite aggressively before landing (or loop it) to avoid inversion.

This inversion would happen regardless of your kite brand or model, it's just more of a pain with the fifth line wrapped around but similar problems can happen on 4 lines kite as well.


Cheers mate that helps, I'll keep that in mind. Also settles my mind about my kite purchase!

pro merc
NSW, 288 posts
10 Dec 2012 2:07PM
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plenty of good 4 line kites out there that are safe, i don't like 5 lines for that reason once inverted you are totally screwed.

juicerider
WA, 777 posts
10 Dec 2012 11:18AM
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Hi Akwa, yes I know exactly what you mean. This can be a problem with a 5th line kite and you can't relaunch it till you have sorted out the 5th line and got it the right side of the kite again.
Some old kites even used to come with a quick release so that you could just release the 5th line launch the kite then reattach later. With the rite technique this is not necessary.
When you try this take care not to get the lines wrapped around you and keep the slack lines all to one side.
Firstly grab one steering line and keep pulling it in, till the kite turns through 90 degrees so that the wing tip is now facing you and is into wind. Now while holding the steering line, apply a bit of tension to the 5th line, you sort of need to also use your hand your holding the steering line with as well, and jiggle it till the 5th line slides off the kite and over the leading edge. Once this happens slowly release the tension from the steering line taking care not to get it caught around you. Then relaunch normally. You may find the steering lines wrapped around the front lines and this needs to be sorted out on the beach, this will happen with 4 line kites too, but the kite will still fly reasonably OK and will save a swim.

Akwa
WA, 255 posts
10 Dec 2012 11:28AM
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juicerider said...
Hi Akwa, yes I know exactly what you mean. This can be a problem with a 5th line kite and you can't relaunch it till you have sorted out the 5th line and got it the right side of the kite again.
Some old kites even used to come with a quick release so that you could just release the 5th line launch the kite then reattach later. With the rite technique this is not necessary.
When you try this take care not to get the lines wrapped around you and keep the slack lines all to one side.
Firstly grab one steering line and keep pulling it in, till the kite turns through 90 degrees so that the wing tip is now facing you and is into wind. Now while holding the steering line, apply a bit of tension to the 5th line, you sort of need to also use your hand your holding the steering line with as well, and jiggle it till the 5th line slides off the kite and over the leading edge. Once this happens slowly release the tension from the steering line taking care not to get it caught around you. Then relaunch normally. You may find the steering lines wrapped around the front lines and this needs to be sorted out on the beach, this will happen with 4 line kites too, but the kite will still fly reasonably OK and will save a swim.


Thanks mate that helps a lot. I'll keep that in mind when it happens again (and it surely would). It really is a bloody sketchy situation sometimes specially at certain beaches.

juicerider
WA, 777 posts
10 Dec 2012 11:50AM
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No worries mate, once you have done a few like this you can do it quite quickly.
Just remembered something else. Once you have turned the kite 90 deg, you can also try pulling hard and quickly on the steering line then release it slightly, do this several times in quick succession and this on its own can get the 5th line to slide over the kite. This seems to work quicker in stronger winds.

eppo
WA, 7161 posts
10 Dec 2012 12:02PM
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Some good advice here. Yes has happened to me before and my brother. Just need to accept that this is part and parcel of using a fifth line kite. Keep pursing with the kite, it is worth it.

And work on your edging and pop. This will reduce you flying under the kite.

Practise next time just keeping the kite at 45 degrees, bear of a little (flatten your board), then turn your head and snap your hips upwind, while pushing down on your back heel. This should send you in the air slightly without moving the kite.

Learn to edge and pop correctly.

Then..., bear off, send the kite, snap your head and hips upwind, push down on the heel and rotate.

Then...bear off, send the kite, snap your head and hips upwind, push down on the heel and jump, redirecting correctly.


Then...and only then, do all this with a rotation.

Learn to edge and pop correctly. Won't take you long. This will avoid flyig under the kite and will also give you the best boost out of the kite...and in the right conditions, it will boost big due to the aspect ratio of this kite.

as I said stick with it, the rebel is worth it.



cbulota
WA, 1207 posts
10 Dec 2012 12:20PM
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Akwa said...
juicerider said...
Hi Akwa, yes I know exactly what you mean. This can be a problem with a 5th line kite and you can't relaunch it till you have sorted out the 5th line and got it the right side of the kite again.
Some old kites even used to come with a quick release so that you could just release the 5th line launch the kite then reattach later. With the rite technique this is not necessary.
When you try this take care not to get the lines wrapped around you and keep the slack lines all to one side.
Firstly grab one steering line and keep pulling it in, till the kite turns through 90 degrees so that the wing tip is now facing you and is into wind. Now while holding the steering line, apply a bit of tension to the 5th line, you sort of need to also use your hand your holding the steering line with as well, and jiggle it till the 5th line slides off the kite and over the leading edge. Once this happens slowly release the tension from the steering line taking care not to get it caught around you. Then relaunch normally. You may find the steering lines wrapped around the front lines and this needs to be sorted out on the beach, this will happen with 4 line kites too, but the kite will still fly reasonably OK and will save a swim.


Thanks mate that helps a lot. I'll keep that in mind when it happens again (and it surely would). It really is a bloody sketchy situation sometimes specially at certain beaches.


Keep in mind Juicerider is a very experienced (10 years + ?) expert rider...I wouldn't advise this for novice/intermediate kiters especially in strong winds and deep water with lines tangled around your kite. Best to learn to self-rescue in such situations and when you get more experience you'll be more comfortable in trying these untangling techniques.

juicerider
WA, 777 posts
10 Dec 2012 12:32PM
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^^^^
Yes good point cbulota, don't to this for the first time in strong winds. Flat water and light winds to start off so you can see where the lines are, and you can also see what the 5th line is doing better too.

RPM
WA, 1549 posts
10 Dec 2012 12:59PM
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Didn't consider a 5th line kite would have this issue??

Markie
QLD, 48 posts
10 Dec 2012 3:40PM
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I've done this a few times with some success....

Unhook and let go of the bar or pop the QR. The kite should unwrap and end up on the water in the beach position with the tension only on the fifth.

Reel in the bar, hook back in and feed back the safety line watching for tangles with the slack line in the water.

Grab a heap of one steering line to turn the kite around and relaunch.

I've also thought but haven't tried it myself of another solution......
Once you crash and are heading towards the kite and realize an invert is imminent pop the quick release, this I'm thinking if done early enough (really early!) would keep all the tension on the 5th and stop the kite flipping through it's lines.
Worth a try?

Usually though if I crash towards the kite I just edge hard upwind and grab a buttload of top steering line....if you are quick enough you can catch it although that's not gonna help in a Hindenburg.

Good luck!

Akwa
WA, 255 posts
10 Dec 2012 1:58PM
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RPM said...
Didn't consider a 5th line kite would have this issue??




I did but didnt think it would happen this easily to be honest.

Akwa
WA, 255 posts
10 Dec 2012 2:02PM
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cbulota said...
Akwa said...
juicerider said...
Hi Akwa, yes I know exactly what you mean. This can be a problem with a 5th line kite and you can't relaunch it till you have sorted out the 5th line and got it the right side of the kite again.
Some old kites even used to come with a quick release so that you could just release the 5th line launch the kite then reattach later. With the rite technique this is not necessary.
When you try this take care not to get the lines wrapped around you and keep the slack lines all to one side.
Firstly grab one steering line and keep pulling it in, till the kite turns through 90 degrees so that the wing tip is now facing you and is into wind. Now while holding the steering line, apply a bit of tension to the 5th line, you sort of need to also use your hand your holding the steering line with as well, and jiggle it till the 5th line slides off the kite and over the leading edge. Once this happens slowly release the tension from the steering line taking care not to get it caught around you. Then relaunch normally. You may find the steering lines wrapped around the front lines and this needs to be sorted out on the beach, this will happen with 4 line kites too, but the kite will still fly reasonably OK and will save a swim.


Thanks mate that helps a lot. I'll keep that in mind when it happens again (and it surely would). It really is a bloody sketchy situation sometimes specially at certain beaches.


Keep in mind Juicerider is a very experienced (10 years + ?) expert rider...I wouldn't advise this for novice/intermediate kiters especially in strong winds and deep water with lines tangled around your kite. Best to learn to self-rescue in such situations and when you get more experience you'll be more comfortable in trying these untangling techniques.


Yeah good point. I've got my self rescue downpacked for situations like these.

brady
TAS, 429 posts
11 Dec 2012 1:24PM
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Had the 2010 Rebel and loved it

Now have a brand spanker 12m. The other I underflew it on a jump (getting tired and just stuffed up)

It maple-leafed, fell threw its lines, and folded immediately into an origami dinosaur. Completely unrecoverable. Had 300m to go back to shore, but dead downwind, and no-one about so just floated along behind a monstrosity that occassionally self launched, spun a few times and crashed again. Always completely safe.

Setting off the quick release didn't change it's folded state - just meant it was a few metres further away from me.

Never had anything like this happen in 10 years of kiting. Hoping it was just bad luck, rather than something this kite is prone to doing

Akwa
WA, 255 posts
11 Dec 2012 11:47AM
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brady said...
Had the 2010 Rebel and loved it

Now have a brand spanker 12m. The other I underflew it on a jump (getting tired and just stuffed up)

It maple-leafed, fell threw its lines, and folded immediately into an origami dinosaur. Completely unrecoverable. Had 300m to go back to shore, but dead downwind, and no-one about so just floated along behind a monstrosity that occassionally self launched, spun a few times and crashed again. Always completely safe.

Setting off the quick release didn't change it's folded state - just meant it was a few metres further away from me.

Never had anything like this happen in 10 years of kiting. Hoping it was just bad luck, rather than something this kite is prone to doing


Yep I had this twice, once at woodies 3 offshore which dragged me away from the beach where about 10 great whites would have been waiting for me.

Scary, and yes it taught me a lesson not to practice my jumping there anymore!

Origami Dinosaur is a very good way to describe it!

TurtleHunter
WA, 1673 posts
11 Dec 2012 12:07PM
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I am not that familiar with north kites but I know the rebel has a loaded 5th line which if the front lines stretch you need to adjust the 5th line to compensate. This may cause it to be less stable.

eppo
WA, 7161 posts
11 Dec 2012 1:50PM
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TurtleHunter said...
I am not that familiar with north kites but I know the rebel has a loaded 5th line which if the front lines stretch you need to adjust the 5th line to compensate. This may cause it to be less stable.




Yep turtles right, only two days ago my bro was complaining the kite was flying weird. After letting him know it is becuase he can't kite for **** (I had been out of the water for two weeks and I assumed my role was to stand on the beach and shout abuse at any kiter I could find)...I had a look.

His fifth line was as tight as a hookers g string (at the start of the night anyhow). Changed it on the knot up the lines and remarkable improvement in the kite, so I then resumed my abusive behaviour.

Do you mind if I add something about the Rebel and jumping technique...well I will because I don't really care if you dont want to hear it.

The rebel is a plug and play design to a certain extent, but...it does have a relatively high aspect. Hence it is easy ona big jump to fly under it like all higher aspect kites.

So...try this, when you load up and snap your hips and head upwind as you send the kite, keep your shoulders pointing in the direction of your snap or your travel. Don't turn your body towards the kite straight away. This will occur in time anyhow. Keep it sheeted in, especially as you land and redirect, this will keep the kite from deceasing its angle of attack and flying over your head, if it does, fly it in the air, back to 11 then 1 then redirect. This I found avoided this problem.

But the load, pop and shoulder direction is key. Anyhow has helped my bro, som it might help you avoid this. I remember finding a clip for my bro a long time ago seeing some clip with a plastic hulk and a kite on a stick, some seppo was banging on about jumping technique, try and find it on youtube, it actually is really informative. Actually I will try and find it hang on....

&feature=player_detailpage

mm years ago, was only last year...oh well.



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"Rebel 2013, 5th line wrap, inversion" started by Akwa