Forums > Kitesurfing General

Second hand gear faulure - advice needed

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Created by spikeysteve 1 month ago, 23 Jan 2020
spikeysteve
WA, 82 posts
23 Jan 2020 4:43PM
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Hi breezers need some input about where to go next with this...

Ive been kiting almost 10 yrs, riding reos since the first generation. surfing for 30 yearsLast year I bought some second hand gear off a shop I have bought gear off before... Ozone Reo V4 w bar and lines - not new but pretty close to it.

First time I take it out, (a small day at Trigg) I tack out the back, and the first time the kite goes above 12 the bar releases itself, and the kite flags on the safety. after a few minutes of stuffing around, i can get the chicken loop back in, so I do a deep water pack down on the lines and use the kite to drag myself in. As i get closer in, I can stand so i grab the kite by the leading edge, get hit by 1ft of whitewater from a broken wave, and the leading edge bursts.

I contacted the shop and told them I wasn't happy about the bar releasing for no reason, or the kite popping first time it was hit by a wave. I said that I would like them to go halves in the repair, I was told to get it fixed and then we could talk more about it. The repair cost $250, because of the large split, and a number of other small holes that I didn't notice upon purchase and needed to be fixed.

Now the shop says basically - second hand gear, bad luck, we will give you some kind if discount in the future.

I understand that sports gear can be fragile, but I feel like something that falls apart the first time it touches the water, its not up to standard. If I had have dumped it in front of a wave at Margs or something, fair play

The consumer protection website says for new and second hand purchases;;;
A product must be of acceptable quality; that is: fit for the purpose for which it is commonly supplied ; safe, durable and free from defects
You are generally entitled to a remedy on a product if it: does not do what it is normally supposed to -;has a defect ; is unsafe -;
breaks down before you would reasonably expect it to.
Depending on the type of problem (also known as a failure under the Australian Consumer Law) the seller may have to provide a 'remedy', such as:a refund ; repairs ; a replacement ; compensation.

So as far as i can see it now I have two options
1) Suck it up, if you buy a second hand kite and it falls apart within 5 minutes of being used thats your bad luck.... or
2) Name and shame and pursue it with consumer protection
3) ??? any other suggestions???

More about the principle than the money at this point.

What's your opinion guys and gals?

Plummet
4673 posts
23 Jan 2020 5:18PM
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Can you identify a problem with the bar?


If so then i would say they sold you a faulty product. In which case they should repair/replace.

If you cant see a problem with the bar then it might be operator error. In that case you have to suck it up.

Brohan
VIC, 513 posts
23 Jan 2020 9:31PM
Thumbs Up

I'd name and shame and go the consumer protection route, going halves seems reasonable as the bar release could have been user error but for a Reo to split open in 1ft surf seems a bit weird... I've dropped my Reos in 4-6ft loads of times and they've been fine.

psychojoe
WA, 655 posts
23 Jan 2020 7:24PM
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It just doesn't sound like something a WA shop would do. I've bought from most of them. It's a small community, and a bad review from you could be very damaging to a business that probably isn't doing all that well presently, regardless. I think the whole idea of buying second hand from a shop is that you get a warranty, however limited, that you wouldn't otherwise.
I guess my take is that the right thing to do is start with consumer protection and only escalate it to a name and shame if you must.

Underoath
QLD, 2410 posts
23 Jan 2020 10:10PM
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Just by 5 cents.

If there is a problem with the bar, it shoud be easy to replicate the fault. If its dodgy. I think a replacement is fair game.

As for the bladder burst.... yeah hard to prove so it may be challenging to seek any type of compensation.

cauncy
WA, 7724 posts
23 Jan 2020 9:37PM
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THE PIN PULLER
WA, 339 posts
23 Jan 2020 11:41PM
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I gave up on second hand stuff got my self a new quiver this year and am loving it. I would not go and name and shame the shop. It's second hand gear not new it could of been flogged by a school. What did u spend on your kite and bar

bjw
NSW, 3146 posts
24 Jan 2020 9:32AM
Thumbs Up

Yeh, kites can get hit by a 6 foot wave and be fine then pop on a 1 footer, just depends on inflation levels, age and angle. I don't think theyd cover it.

As per the bar, is that covered under the bar recall that Ozone had? Just check that out first.

Spitfire
WA, 367 posts
24 Jan 2020 7:06AM
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Did the bar fail or did you just not have it set correctly? Why couldn't you reset it?

NorthernKitesAUS
QLD, 870 posts
24 Jan 2020 11:35AM
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Spikey - read the valve repair thread and learn to do it yourself. Save the pain and hassles and just get yourself out there sooner.

spikeysteve
WA, 82 posts
24 Jan 2020 9:45AM
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Yeah, I probably need to check the bar. I had a hard time getting the bar reset because the power lines got wrapped around the bar when it released, and it took a while to get them untangled, by the time I got them under control I decided it was easier to deep water packdown then get dragged into the wave zone with the kite loose. I was so p!ssed by the situation that i literally threw the bar into the back of my shed and it has sat there since. I have another two bars in good nick so have been using them instead.

Any advice on how to test a bar without attaching it to a kite? Attach the power lines to something and load them up?

Paid 1000 for the bar and kite. I generally buy close to new second hand from shops, dont haggle over price. It was my feeling that the gear would have been checked and more reliable, and have a bit of support if something went wrong. I was told it had one owner who was an experienced kiter and would have treated his gear well... the condition report that the repair guy gave me told a different story

Sorry Cauncy should I not ask the question? If someone sold you a surfboard and you went through it on the first wave you caught, might you think that something was not 100% with the board? If I sold someone a board on GT or SB and I knew they were an experienced surfer, and they told me it snapped first wave, I would offer to help with the repair.... I have done this in the past. Maybe I expect too much of people???

More than a valve repair, it split the leading edge badly, well above my pay grade to repair

psychojoe
WA, 655 posts
24 Jan 2020 11:16AM
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I think it's fair to say that the shop has two options. Warranty the gear, or stop selling second hand gear. Consumer Law pretty much states that if you can't warranty the gear, you can't sell it.

Plummet
4673 posts
24 Jan 2020 12:57PM
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I nailed a nail to the fence hooking the lines up too it unwrap, walk backwards, tension it up and test.

Kamikuza
QLD, 4868 posts
24 Jan 2020 7:42PM
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Considering how hard it is to warranty sorted on new purchases from some places who insist everything is user error, I can only wish you good luck.

cauncy
WA, 7724 posts
24 Jan 2020 6:54PM
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Select to expand quote
spikeysteve said..
Yeah, I probably need to check the bar. I had a hard time getting the bar reset because the power lines got wrapped around the bar when it released, and it took a while to get them untangled, by the time I got them under control I decided it was easier to deep water packdown then get dragged into the wave zone with the kite loose. I was so p!ssed by the situation that i literally threw the bar into the back of my shed and it has sat there since. I have another two bars in good nick so have been using them instead.

Any advice on how to test a bar without attaching it to a kite? Attach the power lines to something and load them up?

Paid 1000 for the bar and kite. I generally buy close to new second hand from shops, dont haggle over price. It was my feeling that the gear would have been checked and more reliable, and have a bit of support if something went wrong. I was told it had one owner who was an experienced kiter and would have treated his gear well... the condition report that the repair guy gave me told a different story

Sorry Cauncy should I not ask the question? If someone sold you a surfboard and you went through it on the first wave you caught, might you think that something was not 100% with the board? If I sold someone a board on GT or SB and I knew they were an experienced surfer, and they told me it snapped first wave, I would offer to help with the repair.... I have done this in the past. Maybe I expect too much of people???

More than a valve repair, it split the leading edge badly, well above my pay grade to repair


What set up do you use on harness? Slide or hook?

Beelzebub
WA, 140 posts
25 Jan 2020 2:38AM
Thumbs Up

In my opinion/experience, unless there was deliberate malice (e.g. disinformation) by the seller, responsibility for the integrity of used equipment typically lies with the purchaser ("caveat emptor").

Hybrid_Z
376 posts
25 Jan 2020 4:55AM
Thumbs Up

So you went out, bar "failed"... Or possibly you released since you haven't actually checked the bar. Couldn't reset the bar cause of the lines, not the bar itself and then you get cleaned up by a wave coming in and bust the bladder.

If I was the shop I probably wouldn't cover that either, sounds like bad luck. If you'd checked the bar and saw a malfunction, pumped it up on the beach and the bladder burst then yeah, fair enough.

AquaPlow
QLD, 830 posts
25 Jan 2020 8:08AM
Thumbs Up

1. If the bar is structurally un sound. Just check you should be able to spot this and subsequently simple load test to verify it causes failure. If true shop is at fault.
2. If pop means L.E. sail split then at $1000 you would have valid case. If a shop can't be bothered to check 2nd equipment adequately then they should be held accountable... If it is a bladder issue then that's on u...
Although the 2 occurred in same set of events.. They are totally separate issues..

Basically with out your experience someone could get badly caught out. So catastrophic equipment failure through no fault of the user is not a reasonable thing to anticipate in general use.

My approach would be as inpersonal as possible.. So consumer advocacy..

Basically it is poor business practice not standing by product.. Myopic..

I tend to get a 3rd party to cast the dice if possible.. On whether escalating is worth it..
As long as you have useable kit.. Now
For example. Would you have been happy spending $1250 on the gear?..

Bars around the release mechanisms are imexperience really solid...

Cheers
AP

hosh
WA, 186 posts
25 Jan 2020 6:31AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
spikeysteve said..
Hi breezers need some input about where to go next with this...

Ive been kiting almost 10 yrs, riding reos since the first generation. surfing for 30 yearsLast year I bought some second hand gear off a shop I have bought gear off before... Ozone Reo V4 w bar and lines - not new but pretty close to it.

First time I take it out, (a small day at Trigg) I tack out the back, and the first time the kite goes above 12 the bar releases itself, and the kite flags on the safety. after a few minutes of stuffing around, i can get the chicken loop back in, so I do a deep water pack down on the lines and use the kite to drag myself in. As i get closer in, I can stand so i grab the kite by the leading edge, get hit by 1ft of whitewater from a broken wave, and the leading edge bursts.

I contacted the shop and told them I wasn't happy about the bar releasing for no reason, or the kite popping first time it was hit by a wave. I said that I would like them to go halves in the repair, I was told to get it fixed and then we could talk more about it. The repair cost $250, because of the large split, and a number of other small holes that I didn't notice upon purchase and needed to be fixed.

Now the shop says basically - second hand gear, bad luck, we will give you some kind if discount in the future.

I understand that sports gear can be fragile, but I feel like something that falls apart the first time it touches the water, its not up to standard. If I had have dumped it in front of a wave at Margs or something, fair play

The consumer protection website says for new and second hand purchases;;;
A product must be of acceptable quality; that is: fit for the purpose for which it is commonly supplied ; safe, durable and free from defects
You are generally entitled to a remedy on a product if it: does not do what it is normally supposed to -;has a defect ; is unsafe -;
breaks down before you would reasonably expect it to.
Depending on the type of problem (also known as a failure under the Australian Consumer Law) the seller may have to provide a 'remedy', such as:a refund ; repairs ; a replacement ; compensation.

So as far as i can see it now I have two options
1) Suck it up, if you buy a second hand kite and it falls apart within 5 minutes of being used thats your bad luck.... or
2) Name and shame and pursue it with consumer protection
3) ??? any other suggestions???

More about the principle than the money at this point.

What's your opinion guys and gals?


I have found out there's something called Implied Warranty. Even when a product is out of warranty it can still be covered under certain circumstances.

Might be worth further investigation.

beebee
137 posts
25 Jan 2020 8:04AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
spikeysteve said..
Yeah, I probably need to check the bar. I had a hard time getting the bar reset because the power lines got wrapped around the bar when it released, and it took a while to get them untangled, by the time I got them under control I decided it was easier to deep water packdown then get dragged into the wave zone with the kite loose. I was so p!ssed by the situation that i literally threw the bar into the back of my shed and it has sat there since. I have another two bars in good nick so have been using them instead.

Any advice on how to test a bar without attaching it to a kite? Attach the power lines to something and load them up?

Paid 1000 for the bar and kite. I generally buy close to new second hand from shops, dont haggle over price. It was my feeling that the gear would have been checked and more reliable, and have a bit of support if something went wrong. I was told it had one owner who was an experienced kiter and would have treated his gear well... the condition report that the repair guy gave me told a different story

Sorry Cauncy should I not ask the question? If someone sold you a surfboard and you went through it on the first wave you caught, might you think that something was not 100% with the board? If I sold someone a board on GT or SB and I knew they were an experienced surfer, and they told me it snapped first wave, I would offer to help with the repair.... I have done this in the past. Maybe I expect too much of people???

More than a valve repair, it split the leading edge badly, well above my pay grade to repair


Don't worry about Cauncy. He's a sad, little troll on these forums. Makes idiotic comments about everything. As for your kite, that sucks. I don't think you'll be able to push the case as you inspected the kite and bought it. The bar , might be another story if it's clearly faulty in some way and you can demonstrate it. Always a crap shoot buying secondhand anything. Sometimes you get a great bargain, sometimes you get worked. Glad you weren't hurt at least.

psychojoe
WA, 655 posts
25 Jan 2020 1:05PM
Thumbs Up

Wow. What a load of **** from Beebee and Beelzebub. Sounds like they own the shop. When somebody traded in their old kite, as professionals the shop inspected it, valued it, marked down for any repairs needed and a reasonable profit. The shop took that chance, not you.

snalberski
WA, 685 posts
25 Jan 2020 1:36PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
spikeysteve said..
Hi breezers need some input about where to go next with this...

Ive been kiting almost 10 yrs, riding reos since the first generation. surfing for 30 yearsLast year I bought some second hand gear off a shop I have bought gear off before... Ozone Reo V4 w bar and lines - not new but pretty close to it.

First time I take it out, (a small day at Trigg) I tack out the back, and the first time the kite goes above 12 the bar releases itself, and the kite flags on the safety. after a few minutes of stuffing around, i can get the chicken loop back in, so I do a deep water pack down on the lines and use the kite to drag myself in. As i get closer in, I can stand so i grab the kite by the leading edge, get hit by 1ft of whitewater from a broken wave, and the leading edge bursts.

I contacted the shop and told them I wasn't happy about the bar releasing for no reason, or the kite popping first time it was hit by a wave. I said that I would like them to go halves in the repair, I was told to get it fixed and then we could talk more about it. The repair cost $250, because of the large split, and a number of other small holes that I didn't notice upon purchase and needed to be fixed.

Now the shop says basically - second hand gear, bad luck, we will give you some kind if discount in the future.

I understand that sports gear can be fragile, but I feel like something that falls apart the first time it touches the water, its not up to standard. If I had have dumped it in front of a wave at Margs or something, fair play

The consumer protection website says for new and second hand purchases;;;
A product must be of acceptable quality; that is: fit for the purpose for which it is commonly supplied ; safe, durable and free from defects
You are generally entitled to a remedy on a product if it: does not do what it is normally supposed to -;has a defect ; is unsafe -;
breaks down before you would reasonably expect it to.
Depending on the type of problem (also known as a failure under the Australian Consumer Law) the seller may have to provide a 'remedy', such as:a refund ; repairs ; a replacement ; compensation.

So as far as i can see it now I have two options
1) Suck it up, if you buy a second hand kite and it falls apart within 5 minutes of being used thats your bad luck.... or
2) Name and shame and pursue it with consumer protection
3) ??? any other suggestions???

More about the principle than the money at this point.

What's your opinion guys and gals?


That is a bit tricky. In hindsight it would have been better to nail the shop down to an actual commitment before you had the repairs done... or gotten them to do the repairs. Second hand will always be risky. I am currently leveraging an online site (Toby Deals) that I bought a smart watch from to honour the 12 month warranty on a 3 month old item. They fobbed me off onto a third party entity who deal with their warranty claims. It seems the warranty entities business system is to make it impossibly difficult to make a claim and to refuse all claims whether they are legitimate or not, according to Australian Consumer Law.... That name again... TobyDeals... do NOT buy from them. I will be making a complaint with Consumer Protection to deal with them.

cauncy
WA, 7724 posts
25 Jan 2020 2:11PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
beebee said..

spikeysteve said..
Yeah, I probably need to check the bar. I had a hard time getting the bar reset because the power lines got wrapped around the bar when it released, and it took a while to get them untangled, by the time I got them under control I decided it was easier to deep water packdown then get dragged into the wave zone with the kite loose. I was so p!ssed by the situation that i literally threw the bar into the back of my shed and it has sat there since. I have another two bars in good nick so have been using them instead.

Any advice on how to test a bar without attaching it to a kite? Attach the power lines to something and load them up?

Paid 1000 for the bar and kite. I generally buy close to new second hand from shops, dont haggle over price. It was my feeling that the gear would have been checked and more reliable, and have a bit of support if something went wrong. I was told it had one owner who was an experienced kiter and would have treated his gear well... the condition report that the repair guy gave me told a different story

Sorry Cauncy should I not ask the question? If someone sold you a surfboard and you went through it on the first wave you caught, might you think that something was not 100% with the board? If I sold someone a board on GT or SB and I knew they were an experienced surfer, and they told me it snapped first wave, I would offer to help with the repair.... I have done this in the past. Maybe I expect too much of people???

More than a valve repair, it split the leading edge badly, well above my pay grade to repair



Don't worry about Cauncy. He's a sad, little troll on these forums. Makes idiotic comments about everything. As for your kite, that sucks. I don't think you'll be able to push the case as you inspected the kite and bought it. The bar , might be another story if it's clearly faulty in some way and you can demonstrate it. Always a crap shoot buying secondhand anything. Sometimes you get a great bargain, sometimes you get worked. Glad you weren't hurt at least.


What you on about you dicksplash, I never said a word, just posted a picture

psychojoe
WA, 655 posts
25 Jan 2020 2:47PM
Thumbs Up

I just reread the original post to find you were only asking for $125 on a $1,000 purchase that failed immediately. I think the shop is being petty not to surrender their markup on a dud deal.
Go ahead, name and shame. I've no time for pettiness

West Oz Kite
WA, 234 posts
26 Jan 2020 2:07AM
Thumbs Up

There is no "shame" here so Im happy to put my name to this message. Anyone who knows me will know that Ive been working hard in this industry for over 20 years and I ALWAYS try and help people when I can.

You purchased the kites secondhand and you have had an incident where they have crashed into a wave so I believe this is just an accident and not a product fault, new or used this would not be covered by warranty.

I have forwarded your legal threatening email onto the customer to see if he would like to contribute to your repair as he has been paid for this sale now. He is a long term customer and Im sure he will be upset to hear that I am losing sleep over something like this, hence my message at 2am.

There is a bar recall on the click in loop system but I dont believe your bar would be this one. Can you double check though.

All you have done here Steve is take away a service for customers as we are no longer going to sell on consignment as do not need this heartache.

Sonya - West Oz Kiteboarding

psychojoe
WA, 655 posts
26 Jan 2020 5:51AM
Thumbs Up

Oh , a consignment. I didn't even think of that. Too late to delete my earlier posts now, sorry Sonya.
I think abandoning consignment is a good idea, Too risky.
I'll feel comfortable recommending your shop in the future, knowing this won't happen again.

shi thouse
WA, 867 posts
26 Jan 2020 5:57AM
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spikeysteve
WA, 82 posts
26 Jan 2020 7:16AM
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I am going to double check the bar today. I care less about the bar because I have others and I can get parts off it it has failed... when half of my quiver goes pop I can't kite.
As for bar and harness... did visual inspection of the bar and lines before attaching. I ride a dynabar with a hook have for 5 years. A few times in the past the chicken loop has slipped from the hook, at first I thought this was what had happened...pain in the as but easy fix. But no the chicken loop had released.
I got the kite repaired because I was told to by the shop and that they would 'work something out' once it had been done.

There is no way I would buy this kite for 1250. There was multiple past repairs ( I was told about one) and another hole in the canopy. My fault for not going over it with a fine tooth comb like I should have. I was told it was traded in on new gear.... how else would a shop sell second hand stuff?

The kite was not crashed into the waves. It was hit by 1ft of whitewater. Once. I have the swell chart from the day. Both leadingedge and bladder went bang.

I find it weird that after multiple calls and emails you have only just contacted the previous owner of the kite?.??

As far as legally threatening email... I think as threatening as I got was to quote a paragraph from the consumer protection website and ask for half the repair cost. After id been told that you would not be contributing to the repair. Too much?

eppo
WA, 7461 posts
26 Jan 2020 7:47AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
shi thouse said..







Fck ain't that truth above !!

hey "spikey" have you done a load test on the bar yet? Inspected it properly? Or are you just gonna keep giving your anecdotal point of view
kited for 10 years hey. 1 Ft of whitewater at the wrong angle can be enough to pop a bladder and kite if enough load was put on it. Especially if it Had inverted on the way down. Thought you'd know that by now, apparently not.
doesn't matter how much you "inspect " a second hand kite, you can never know. It's a risk we all take buying second hand for any product.
inspect that bar, if it releases under load then I'm sure the shop will help you out.
if it's fine, then it's either a kook move or you were just unlucky.

[ moderated ]

WA surf is a brilliant business and run by the most honest people you've ever met and have been at it before most of you had even heard of kitesurfing.

MrFreeze
252 posts
26 Jan 2020 7:59AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
eppo said..




shi thouse said..









Fck ain't that truth above !!

hey "spikey" have you done a load test on the bar yet? Inspected it properly? Or are you just gonna keep giving your anecdotal point of view
kited for 10 years hey. 1 Ft of whitewater at the wrong angle can be enough to pop a bladder and kite if enough load was put on it. Especially if it Had inverted on the way down. Thought you'd know that by now, apparently not.
doesn't matter how much you "inspect " a second hand kite, you can never know. It's a risk we all take buying second hand for any product.
inspect that bar, if it releases under load then I'm sure the shop will help you out.
if it's fine, then it's either a kook move or you were just unlucky.

and psychohoe After your illegitimate rant you think abandoning consignment is a good idea too risky and now you would recommend the shop!!!. Get Fcked mate, who gives a toss what you think or who you would recommend. Tosser.

WA surf is a brilliant business and run by the most honest people you've ever met and have been at it before most of you had even heard of kitesurfing.





Hmmmmm, looks like a nerve has been struck. Haven't seen a outburst like that for some time from you el capitano.

+1 WA Surf. Great folk.

Side note: Magnesium, apparently it has calming qualities.

psychojoe
WA, 655 posts
26 Jan 2020 10:01AM
Thumbs Up

Bit harsh Eppo, but ok, I'll dig a little further, I'll admit my post could have been better structured. I probably should have said, I got my lessons through Sonya 7 years ago and I have recommended her to prospective newbs ever since and will continue to do so in the future. I was attempting to assure Sonya that her impeccable reputation has not been tarnished by this post. In hindsight, I never would have commented on this post had Spikeysteve mentioned it was a consignment, based on his last post he clearly has no idea what that means.
I'll stand by the too risky comment, firstly because of this thread, and secondly, as you said doesn't matter how much you "inspect". I wouldn't want a newb that I send to Sonya to have the same experience if they too don't understand consignment.
I still think you're a good bloke Eppo.
I also think Laurie should delete this whole thread.



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"Second hand gear faulure - advice needed" started by spikeysteve