Forums > Sailing General

Are You Better Off Buying A Production Boat Or A Well Built Owner Built Boat

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Created by Zzzzzz 1 month ago, 21 Jul 2019
Zzzzzz
239 posts
21 Jul 2019 12:17PM
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It seems we all gravitate to to the fancy new production boats with their slick marketing but over the years as the boat ages we find where the company has saved money for the all important profit margins .
Less fibreglass more
Composite's, cast keels , bad resins that after paying fairly good money for the yacht has major osmosis problems all conveniently hidden ply or foam decks rotten from fittings leaking over the years .
Would it not be a better bet to search out an owner built boat that was obviously built very well where his concern was to do it right?.
Over the years I have seen production boats with great reputations on the hard having extensive work carried out just to keep it seaworthy,
lots more money being thrown into it and still only a boat punched out Monday to Friday by someone who is thinking mainly about the weekend coming up.
Personally I like the thought of my furniture being bonded in properly, chain plates bonded into the hull not through the bulkhead.
My feelings are it is easy to get sucked in on a reputation on a yacht. Brand when there is some very good buys and much better built boats owner built .

Offthegrid
WA, 103 posts
21 Jul 2019 3:26PM
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Depends if you want to keep it or sell it one day. Unfortunately no matter how well built a custom boat is it seems that buyers generally prefer brands. "Custom" boats can sit on the market for a long time...

UncleBob
NSW, 445 posts
21 Jul 2019 5:45PM
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Offthegrid said..
Depends if you want to keep it or sell it one day. Unfortunately no matter how well built a custom boat is it seems that buyers generally prefer brands. "Custom" boats can sit on the market for a long time...


Sad but true! Some custom built boats are without a doubt a superior product however the odds of finding one that is so is extremely slim.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1754 posts
21 Jul 2019 9:15PM
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I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.

Bananabender
QLD, 750 posts
21 Jul 2019 10:30PM
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Select to expand quote
shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.


Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?

lydia
901 posts
22 Jul 2019 5:32AM
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Neither
modern production is like buying a insert any manufacturer small hatch back car
built to a price
end of the day boats are about proper engineering and it is very rare for this be done correctly by an owner builder
in any event they cannot give you the sign offs you will soon need for insurance purposes
best bet is a limited production build by a bespoke builder
you will have all the engineering sign offs and build certificates
the end result will be properly engineered well built and all done is circumstances were cost has not been the primary consideration as boats are built to order and not for stock

pogo is an example and Sydney yachts another

cisco
QLD, 11249 posts
22 Jul 2019 7:45AM
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It is a bit like asking would you buy this one:-

www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1984-roberts-34/OAG-AD-16185905/?Cr=0

Or pay the extra $11,500 and buy this one:-

www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/sailing-boats/sparkman-stephens-34/217099

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1754 posts
22 Jul 2019 8:14AM
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Select to expand quote
Bananabender said..




shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.






Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?






Hi BB,
Heavy heart, but yes. I am setting up a new business so money is being watched closely, and the local scene is rife with escalating threats of legal action and personality conflicts so my love of the sport is being beaten down somewhat. I love sailing passionately, but on the weekend I was told I had to kick crew members off my boat.
Nothing to do with me or the boat, but now the politics is dictating who I can sail with. That's another escalation of the turf wars that was completely uneccessary, and a step too far. I still love sailing, but I think I'll take a few years off and go somewhere else where the money and commitment involved are appreciated, not used for personal agendas that run against the betterment of the sport. Or go and buy a single hander and do my own thing.

Ramona
NSW, 5114 posts
22 Jul 2019 8:16AM
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Well I would buy the SS34 simply because it has the best deck layout I have seen on an SS34 and it has a real anchor! The Roberts is a nice looking boat though and probably a better interior than the SS34. I'm guessing it's cold moulded timber construction or maybe strip cedar, no mention in the ad.

Bananabender
QLD, 750 posts
22 Jul 2019 11:35AM
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Select to expand quote
shaggybaxter said..


Bananabender said..






shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.








Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?








Hi BB,
Heavy heart, but yes. I am setting up a new business so money is being watched closely, and the local scene is rife with escalating threats of legal action and personality conflicts so my love of the sport is being beaten down somewhat. I love sailing passionately, but on the weekend I was told I had to kick crew members off my boat.
Nothing to do with me or the boat, but now the politics is dictating who I can sail with. That's another escalation of the turf wars that was completely uneccessary, and a step too far. I still love sailing, but I think I'll take a few years off and go somewhere else where the money and commitment involved are appreciated, not used for personal agendas that run against the betterment of the sport. Or go and buy a single hander and do my own thing.



Oh Mate,
Been there re setting up new business and and ensuring enough working capital ,that's life.
Sorry to hear that , Just make sure you count to 15 before reacting.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1754 posts
22 Jul 2019 12:25PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Bananabender said..

shaggybaxter said..



Bananabender said..







shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.









Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?









Hi BB,
Heavy heart, but yes. I am setting up a new business so money is being watched closely, and the local scene is rife with escalating threats of legal action and personality conflicts so my love of the sport is being beaten down somewhat. I love sailing passionately, but on the weekend I was told I had to kick crew members off my boat.
Nothing to do with me or the boat, but now the politics is dictating who I can sail with. That's another escalation of the turf wars that was completely uneccessary, and a step too far. I still love sailing, but I think I'll take a few years off and go somewhere else where the money and commitment involved are appreciated, not used for personal agendas that run against the betterment of the sport. Or go and buy a single hander and do my own thing.




Oh Mate,
Been there re setting up new business and and ensuring enough working capital ,that's life.
Sorry to hear that , Just make sure you count to 15 before reacting.


roger that mate, thx.

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
22 Jul 2019 2:52PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Ramona said..




Well I would buy the SS34 simply because it has the best deck layout I have seen on an SS34 and it has a real anchor! The Roberts is a nice looking boat though and probably a better interior than the SS34. I'm guessing it's cold moulded timber construction or maybe strip cedar, no mention in the ad.


Interesting it has been for sale so long. At the moment there isn't any better one for sale.

lydia
901 posts
22 Jul 2019 1:07PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
shaggybaxter said..

Bananabender said..





shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.







Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?







Hi BB,
Heavy heart, but yes. I am setting up a new business so money is being watched closely, and the local scene is rife with escalating threats of legal action and personality conflicts so my love of the sport is being beaten down somewhat. I love sailing passionately, but on the weekend I was told I had to kick crew members off my boat.
Nothing to do with me or the boat, but now the politics is dictating who I can sail with. That's another escalation of the turf wars that was completely uneccessary, and a step too far. I still love sailing, but I think I'll take a few years off and go somewhere else where the money and commitment involved are appreciated, not used for personal agendas that run against the betterment of the sport. Or go and buy a single hander and do my own thing.


Welcome to Queensland yacht racing where your lawyer is more important than your bowman
sad but true

boty
QLD, 510 posts
22 Jul 2019 4:56PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
shaggybaxter said..

Bananabender said..





shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.







Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?







Hi BB,
Heavy heart, but yes. I am setting up a new business so money is being watched closely, and the local scene is rife with escalating threats of legal action and personality conflicts so my love of the sport is being beaten down somewhat. I love sailing passionately, but on the weekend I was told I had to kick crew members off my boat.
Nothing to do with me or the boat, but now the politics is dictating who I can sail with. That's another escalation of the turf wars that was completely uneccessary, and a step too far. I still love sailing, but I think I'll take a few years off and go somewhere else where the money and commitment involved are appreciated, not used for personal agendas that run against the betterment of the sport. Or go and buy a single hander and do my own thing.


sorry to hear shaggy but even though that club has great facility's the politics there has always been awful much better sailing out of the smaller clubs one of the reasons we do so much with the classic yachts no club just a bunch of like minded people better atmosphere
don't let it get you down and remember why you really sail

Ramona
NSW, 5114 posts
22 Jul 2019 5:34PM
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Select to expand quote
Shanty said..

Ramona said..





Interesting it has been for sale so long. At the moment there isn't any better one for sale.


It's in a difficult price range. Expensive for an SS34 though it's probably worth it. for an extra 10 grand you can have an SS39 with a superb interior!

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
22 Jul 2019 5:51PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Ramona said..



Shanty said..




Ramona said..








Interesting it has been for sale so long. At the moment there isn't any better one for sale.





It's in a difficult price range. Expensive for an SS34 though it's probably worth it. for an extra 10 grand you can have an SS39 with a superb interior!




I might email the broker to see if they have any photos of the interior. I don't think $49,000 is to unbelievably expensive for what it has. A ss34 called crystal sold for 22,500 and it was truely f_cked when I had a look at it. For another 26,500 buys you new rig, new paint job, no visible osmosis, another 2 Barlow winches, new Raytheon interments, new head, new engine, racing sails, windows that apparently don't leak. Probably missed others but as you would all know that adds up quickly.

SailMark
QLD, 76 posts
22 Jul 2019 7:32PM
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Select to expand quote
boty said..

shaggybaxter said..


Bananabender said..






shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.








Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?








Hi BB,
Heavy heart, but yes. I am setting up a new business so money is being watched closely, and the local scene is rife with escalating threats of legal action and personality conflicts so my love of the sport is being beaten down somewhat. I love sailing passionately, but on the weekend I was told I had to kick crew members off my boat.
Nothing to do with me or the boat, but now the politics is dictating who I can sail with. That's another escalation of the turf wars that was completely uneccessary, and a step too far. I still love sailing, but I think I'll take a few years off and go somewhere else where the money and commitment involved are appreciated, not used for personal agendas that run against the betterment of the sport. Or go and buy a single hander and do my own thing.



sorry to hear shaggy but even though that club has great facility's the politics there has always been awful much better sailing out of the smaller clubs one of the reasons we do so much with the classic yachts no club just a bunch of like minded people better atmosphere
don't let it get you down and remember why you really sail


+1 just remember the effort involved in getting that boat. No one had any issues until you started sailing it really well. Find another club or just enjoy time on board with family.

SandS
VIC, 5684 posts
22 Jul 2019 7:56PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
shaggybaxter said..

Bananabender said..





shaggybaxter said..
I think it depends upon where in the sales cycle the boat is. Is it new or 3rd or 4th hand?
I suppose I fit in the latter category, as Pogo are a no dealer/stock model, they are only made to order. I wouldn't say it would fit the description of a true owner built boat, you do have some design inputs into keel/cabin layouts/electronics/sails/standing rigging etc, but not on the hull or the rig. Mind you, the lack of rig options was not something I came across with any other vendor in a racer/cruiser, so you could put that down as a bit of an vendor specific idiosyncrasy more than a representative-of-all-vendors type thing.

I definitely noticed a difference in visiting both production and the boutique builders. A pretty well known tier 2 Euro production boat builder were popping hulls out of a mould in 3-4 days. By comparison Pogo took over 6 weeks for mine, and that level of care and workmanship I found reflected in all of the different little connected workshop spaces all meticulously assembling their specialty system (composites/hull, appendages, cabinetry, plumbing , electronics, power, rigging) and you can see the pride they have in their work. Even the apprentices!

I do think you take more of a loss on resale with a non production boat.
I am about to list the 12.50 and the realistic market price is a bit of a shock when compared to the build cost. This should make a very happy buyer, so whilst not financially the best outcome for the first seller, it's a great outcome for owner number 2! The quality of a hand built product and a market corrected price.
Win.







Hey SB , Bit of a shock ,moving up?







Hi BB,
Heavy heart, but yes. I am setting up a new business so money is being watched closely, and the local scene is rife with escalating threats of legal action and personality conflicts so my love of the sport is being beaten down somewhat. I love sailing passionately, but on the weekend I was told I had to kick crew members off my boat.
Nothing to do with me or the boat, but now the politics is dictating who I can sail with. That's another escalation of the turf wars that was completely uneccessary, and a step too far. I still love sailing, but I think I'll take a few years off and go somewhere else where the money and commitment involved are appreciated, not used for personal agendas that run against the betterment of the sport. Or go and buy a single hander and do my own thing.


I applaud you for your years of campaigning the Pogo !! Amazing effort !! Its people like you that keep the yachting world alive and kicking !

Could you talk more about the crew situation ? either here or PM ? Did it have anything to do with yachting Australia and insurance cover for non club member crew ?



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"Are You Better Off Buying A Production Boat Or A Well Built Owner Built Boat" started by Zzzzzz