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Manly boat contract warning.

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Created by Cockpit A week ago, 12 Mar 2019
Cockpit
62 posts
12 Mar 2019 4:33PM
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This just a polite warning to anyone who may have put a contract on a boat at Manly this afternoon.
I am not going to name the boat or owners but just want the person who put the contract on to be aware that my wife and myself have a written agreed deal from last night to buy this boat. As far as I am aware the agreement is legally binding yet we received a text this afternoon from the owners to say that they had accepted a higher offer today.
We are really disgusted with these owners, we spent over five and a half hours travelling and inspecting the boat, then messaging and emailing the agreed deal and last night they accepted in writing and wished us every happiness with her and then today they do this...
We will be taking legal advise tomorrow as to our position but just want the other party to be aware of what is going on before they pay money for a survey etc and that if the contract they signed says the boat has no encumbrances then that may be false.
regards

cisco
QLD, 10955 posts
12 Mar 2019 9:00PM
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Did you pay a deposit at all?? A binding contract is offer with a condideration (deposit) and acceptance.

If you have those three your position is very strong. If not you may be in for a disappointment.

If a broker is involved your case may be very strong but as you say, get legal advice.

Denick
2 posts
12 Mar 2019 7:26PM
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Sorry to hear this has happened to you, I hope you get it sorted. have pm'd you a question.....

Cockpit
62 posts
15 Mar 2019 7:31AM
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So we took legal advice and yes it seems we probably do have a legal contract and can take action against the sellers.
However one law firm wants over $600 just to write us a letter advising us on the next steps...
So basically you have to deal with another greedy B to go after the first greedy B's and you are kept in the cycle of dealing with these kind of people. And it's not healthy and can drag you down.
So we have decided to leave it and move on. As they say there are always more boats out there and at the end of the day this was an ex charter boat with over 6000 hours on the original engine plus nearly another 900 on the replacement so it's done a lot of work in its 20 years.
It apparently has some osmosis issues also. And when you find out the kind of people the owners are you also have to wonder are they covering other things up?
For those who are wondering if we offered a really low price initially then the answer is no. We made one offer (which they accepted in writing within an hour of us making it) and it was less than 8% off their asking price. So the dollar gain they are making is not a huge amount and certainly not worth doing what they did for most decent people.

So let the hunt continue...

Toph
WA, 1358 posts
15 Mar 2019 8:13AM
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In my opinion, that is the best decision.

I know it hurts loosing money and time spent in the original search for your next dream boat (and sometimes considerable time and money), but there is no point in throwing good money after bad. A solicitors bill can add up very quick and that money could be used at finding never nicer more comfortable boat which I am sure is just in the next bay over......

samsturdy
NSW, 1355 posts
15 Mar 2019 11:20AM
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Hi cocky...what happened to you used to happen in the housing market, they called it 'gazzumping' I think that's how you spell it.
It's been banned now.

fishmonkey
NSW, 396 posts
15 Mar 2019 11:58AM
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a similar thing happens a lot in the rental market too...

sirgallivant
NSW, 1394 posts
15 Mar 2019 12:22PM
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It used to be a thing called "verbal contract" in the old days, when two parties agreed on a sale and shook hands, no paperwork involved. It was a binding legal contract. (It might still exist legally?)

When l bought my yacht in Qld l was not asked for any deposit or signature until the owners accepted my offer.
That was after the sea trial but before survey. It was via the brokerage, thou.

Gazumping used to be an everyday practice of shoddy operators in the eighties until it was legislated out of existence.

I strongly disagree with the practice or even just the suggestion of any deposit on a purchase of something not just yachts, when the buyer just looks at the item, before trying it.
This practice is a business trick, based on the sudden strong emotions of the interested party when they see something they might be in love first sight, and the broker or dealer is trying to catch them unawares, tying them down with a contract.

A decent seller - even a broker - would leave the buyer some room to consider a purchase before committing himself by an often hard to reverse financial commitment.

Your experience is a lesson to all, you done the obvious thing letting the issue go, however, it might have been interesting to see the consequences, had you not?

Bananabender
QLD, 571 posts
15 Mar 2019 12:00PM
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It depends on how badly you want it . If no holding deposit is paid the item is still on the market. If I'm pretty happy with the initial cosmetics I always suggest I pay a holding deposit by electronic transfer with email confirmation to ensure I have free reign in making a decision .Naturally it is very minimal and applies for a set period. As far as dealing in Qld. is concerned when I moved up here in 2004 from Melb. I was astounded how sales were transacted and how trustworthy everyone was . Eg I want to buy the house for $700,000 settlement in 30 days. " no worries $1000 bucks deposit balance on settlement" I felt I was being dudded but couldn't figure out how.
Its all changed now however.

valo
NSW, 248 posts
15 Mar 2019 3:24PM
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Not a nice ending.
Gazumping happens everywhere in every market place. It is the Vendor's morality and greed that allows it to happen. Even if it is illegal.
Good choice not going the legal path. Even thought it is VERY tempting to do so!
Some solicitors will drain you dry and you won't be able to afford a boat at the end of it all.
I am a firm believer that things like this happen for a reason.
There will be a better boat just around the corner

Cockpit
62 posts
15 Mar 2019 1:02PM
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valo said..
Not a nice ending.
Gazumping happens everywhere in every market place. It is the Vendor's morality and greed that allows it to happen. Even if it is illegal.
Good choice not going the legal path. Even thought it is VERY tempting to do so!
Some solicitors will drain you dry and you won't be able to afford a boat at the end of it all.
I am a firm believer that things like this happen for a reason.
There will be a better boat just around the corner


Yes we also believe that things are either meant to happen or not. On this occasion it seems we were not meant to buy this boat.
Ce la vie... Still annoying having to deal with those rat Bas, oops no we've moved on

cisco
QLD, 10955 posts
15 Mar 2019 7:45PM
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Cockpit said..
So we have decided to leave it and move on.



A very wise but maybe costly decision.

There will be another bus (boat) along shortly.

So what was the boat anyway?? The collective here may be able to find you a better one at a better price.

SandS
VIC, 5455 posts
15 Mar 2019 9:18PM
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i recon you are better off with out it , you will find a better yacht !!

southace
QLD, 3929 posts
15 Mar 2019 8:29PM
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cisco said..

Cockpit said..
So we have decided to leave it and move on.




A very wise but maybe costly decision.

There will be another bus (boat) along shortly.

So what was the boat anyway?? The collective here may be able to find you a better one at a better price.


The main aim of this discussion was not to release the details of the sale , just to warn future prospective buyers! .
Have you got your fixed keel trailer sailer back in the water yet it's possibly approaching the 4 year mark?

cisco
QLD, 10955 posts
15 Mar 2019 9:28PM
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southace said..
The main aim of this discussion was not to release the details of the sale , just to warn future prospective buyers! .
Have you got your fixed keel trailer sailer back in the water yet it's possibly approaching the 4 year mark?



Go blow it out your rear end southace?

What I do with my thoroughbred yacht is my business. What you do with your overloaded slug is your business and ne'er the twain shall meet.

southace
QLD, 3929 posts
15 Mar 2019 10:01PM
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cisco said..

southace said..
The main aim of this discussion was not to release the details of the sale , just to warn future prospective buyers! .
Have you got your fixed keel trailer sailer back in the water yet it's possibly approaching the 4 year mark?




Go blow it out your rear end southace?

What I do with my thoroughbred yacht is my business. What you do with your overloaded slug is your business and ne'er the twain shall meet.


Interesting since I own a Joe Adams world cruiser? And seems your fixed keel trailer boat has been on the hard way to long nearly four years? Just like your last one hey that rusted away? Your nothing but a arm chair critic .

FabulousPhill
VIC, 33 posts
16 Mar 2019 12:09AM
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Southace - you criticised Cisco twice now. Once wasn't enough for you. Then you make it quite personal.
Be civil and mind your manners.

andy59
QLD, 1101 posts
16 Mar 2019 2:05AM
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I sold my SS34 to guy on a hand written contract and a 10% deposit. He was waiting 0n an inheritance so it was a long settlement. Three weeks later his wife/girlfriend discovered they could buy a nice shiny Benetau for the same money. He decided he wanted to pull out and told me to keep the deposit. It got a bit nasty and he would have spent at least $15,000 on lawyers trying to get out of the contract. Eventually they settled for the full amount one day before settlement day.
I had fun playing with both of his lawyers for 2 months, he spent $15k more than he needed to, but now he has the boat he always wanted and he can tell his wife/girlfriend he tried every thing he could to make her happy but in the end he had to honour his contract.

andy59
QLD, 1101 posts
16 Mar 2019 2:09AM
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cisco said..
Did you pay a deposit at all?? A binding contract is offer with a condideration (deposit) and acceptance.

If you have those three your position is very strong. If not you may be in for a disappointment.

If a broker is involved your case may be very strong but as you say, get legal advice.




Don't mean to be a nit picker Cisco but a contract including a purchase price satisfies the element of consideration. There is no need for a deposit.
Sirgal: oral contracts still exist and are binding, the only problem is certainty, he said she said. But remember in civil disputes facts only have to be proved on the balance of probability. After something is proven more likely than not to be true it is then treated as it is absolutely true in the context of the matter before the court.

MorningBird
NSW, 2086 posts
Saturday , 16 Mar 2019 7:23AM
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andy59 said..

cisco said..
Did you pay a deposit at all?? A binding contract is offer with a condideration (deposit) and acceptance.

If you have those three your position is very strong. If not you may be in for a disappointment.

If a broker is involved your case may be very strong but as you say, get legal advice.





Don't mean to be a nit picker Cisco but a contract including a purchase price satisfies the element of consideration. There is no need for a deposit.
Sirgal: oral contracts still exist and are binding, the only problem is certainty, he said she said. But remember in civil disputes facts only have to be proved on the balance of probability. After something is proven more likely than not to be true it is then treated as it is absolutely true in the context of the matter before the court.


Thanks Andy. Clarity in the midst of opinions.
How is the new yacht?

cisco
QLD, 10955 posts
Saturday , 16 Mar 2019 8:26PM
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Is there not a mandatory "cooling off" period that is applied to ALL contracts these days??

Just seeking more "clarity".

Maybe I am "old fashioned", "old school", or "out of date", I don't give a rip but I as a vendor will not accept or trust a contract that is not accompanied by a monetary deposit, I.e., put your money where your mouth is.

Cockpit
62 posts
Saturday , 16 Mar 2019 6:59PM
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cisco said..
Is there not a mandatory "cooling off" period that is applied to ALL contracts these days??

Just seeking more "clarity".

Maybe I am "old fashioned", "old school", or "out of date", I don't give a rip but I as a vendor will not accept or trust a contract that is not accompanied by a monetary deposit, I.e., put your money where your mouth is.


The cooling off period only applies to house sales as far as I am aware but stand to be corrected. Maybe new cars as well?
As I now understand it a binding contract occurs when there is an offer and acceptance with something of value at stake, eg; I offer $50,000 for a boat and the vendor accepts it (preferably in writing otherwise you can get the "he said, she said" scenario). There is no need for any deposit unless it stipulates it in the contract as a condition.
Although as Cisco said if I were selling say a car on gumtree I would want a deposit before I would consider it sold.

fishmonkey
NSW, 396 posts
Saturday , 16 Mar 2019 10:48PM
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cooling off periods are legislated for specific kinds of transactions/contracts, and they tend to vary from state to state.

cisco
QLD, 10955 posts
Saturday , 16 Mar 2019 11:08PM
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I think cooling off periods are a crock of crock poo.

You are either in or out after market research, due dilligence and caveat emptor.

You take your thing in your hand and put it where you want it.

What other way of doing meaningful business is there???

Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 343 posts
Sunday , 17 Mar 2019 7:54AM
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cisco said..
I think cooling off periods are a crock of crock poo.

You are either in or out after market research, due dilligence and caveat emptor.

You take your thing in your hand and put it where you want it.

What other way of doing meaningful business is there???


How has something so simple become so complicated.
We were taught in school economics that part of a contract was consideration i.e. a sum of money has to be paid.
I am guessing there could be a cooling off period for everything these days?
A phone call to fair trading should resolve this issue.

valo
NSW, 248 posts
Sunday , 17 Mar 2019 12:02PM
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A cooling off period of 5 days exists in Nsw for all contracts between a home owner and a contractor for any works over $20k.
As you can tell I was a contractor for a long time.
So you never know when a cooling off period may apply.

Donk107
TAS, 2048 posts
Sunday , 17 Mar 2019 12:42PM
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cisco said..
I think cooling off periods are a crock of crock poo.

You are either in or out after market research, due dilligence and caveat emptor.

You take your thing in your hand and put it where you want it.

What other way of doing meaningful business is there???



I think it is there to allow for buyers regret

Regards Don

andy59
QLD, 1101 posts
Monday , 18 Mar 2019 8:37AM
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MorningBird said..



andy59 said..




cisco said..
Did you pay a deposit at all?? A binding contract is offer with a condideration (deposit) and acceptance.

If you have those three your position is very strong. If not you may be in for a disappointment.

If a broker is involved your case may be very strong but as you say, get legal advice.








Don't mean to be a nit picker Cisco but a contract including a purchase price satisfies the element of consideration. There is no need for a deposit.
Sirgal: oral contracts still exist and are binding, the only problem is certainty, he said she said. But remember in civil disputes facts only have to be proved on the balance of probability. After something is proven more likely than not to be true it is then treated as it is absolutely true in the context of the matter before the court.





Thanks Andy. Clarity in the midst of opinions.
How is the new yacht?




Mb new boat is awesome mate thanks.
Fish monkey is right. There is no cooling off period for the private sale of a boat.
They tend be legislated for certain industries where "vulnerable parties" have be pressured into a contract.

fishmonkey
NSW, 396 posts
Monday , 18 Mar 2019 10:12AM
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cisco said..
I think cooling off periods are a crock of crock poo.

You are either in or out after market research, due dilligence and caveat emptor.

You take your thing in your hand and put it where you want it.

What other way of doing meaningful business is there???


the problem is that there are many situations where a consumer may be cajoled or pressured into entering into a contract before they are able to research their options.

although many cooling off periods are State/Territory legislated, there are also National ones. for example, in Australian Consumer Law, a 10 day cooling off period applies to all unsolicited contracts. this is primarily designed to protect consumers from telemarketers and door-to-door salespeople. it's hard to argue that this isn't a good thing.

crustysailor
VIC, 620 posts
Monday , 18 Mar 2019 1:46PM
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sorry to hear your situation Cockpit, I hope you add an update soon showing the better one you found instead.

On 2 occasions of buying/selling boats, we were fortunate enough to deal with decent people.
We negotiated a price, shook hands ,deposits were exchanged and a basic contract was written and signed.

After that, it was just a matter of keeping in good communication until the big handover day came.

I'm a big karma believer too.
It might just be a little thing, like whether your mooring line will or wont get struck around your prop as you cast off, but I'm convinced everyone has to pay their dues in the end.



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"Manly boat contract warning." started by Cockpit