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Shorter, performance sup shapes

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Created by breathofmaggot Two weeks ago, 6 Sep 2021
breathofmaggot
24 posts
6 Sep 2021 10:57AM
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I've got an 8.2, 27. Shortboard sup shape. Narrow nose square tail. Wrote a thread a few months back detailing progression of standing on it. Ive got that dialed now but it is deadset not worth the extra effort for the performance you get out of it. Might go a little faster in the pocket but it is so much harder to run up and down the board to turn whilst maintaining speed. If you run up to middle to get some speed it's so much more work to keep the speed whilst simultaneously shifting down the board, and rail, to dig a turn in. For the effort I seriously reckon there's little advantage to riding a shorty. My 8'2 widebody covers most conditions up to 4 foot. If it's too sucky for that then a fish or shortboard is way more enjoyment then the shortboard sup shape. What would the conditions one of these shapes trumps every other surd craft?

Change my mind, could be a lack of technique thing...what are your thoughts?

shiny
10 posts
6 Sep 2021 1:18PM
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Great question. Whereas I think a mid length or longboard shape sup can definitely be the best board for fat or slow or weak waves, very hard to identify conditions where a performance sup shape is actually the best board for the conditions. A performance sup shape will outperform other sup shapes in bowly, hollow or more powerful waves. However, generally in these 'good' waves I reckon it's hard to argue that a skilled surfer on a short board / surf board will not be the best performer. Only exception I would suggest is rip bowls where I think a performance sup shape can have the edge. Think Mo Freitas at solid Haleiwa where the extra volume of the sup gives more drive and flow vs a shortboard while still allowing for critical vertical surfing.
Personally I surf small performance sups almost exclusively. I love the technical challenge of small sups and pushing my own performance as far as possible. I am yet to find a shortboard that can deliver the sheer drive and power of a sup. However, line up videos of pro surfers vs the elite sup surfers in similar waves and i think it's clear who is doing the highest performance surfing. On the other hand go down to your local fat beach break on a Sunday and a good sup rider can be outperforming hoards of weekend warriors on an assortment of fish, mid lengths and fun surf board shapes .. Think any one of a dozen of Casso's videos that get posted on this site!

colas
4345 posts
6 Sep 2021 2:13PM
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In my experience:

- You can manage very small performance SUP sizes, as long as you are focused. Basically the more I reduce my board size, the less I am able to stay at peak performance. For my 97kg, I have two boards with the same shape, performance narrow-ish nose (Gong Alley), in 7'8" x 27"3/4 x 105l and 8'1" x 29"3/4 x 120l

I must limit my sessions to 45mn with the 7'8", as after 30mn I am too tired to stay efficient. But I can stay hours and even relax while standing up on the 8'1". I thus understand that contestants can get away with very small boards as they only have to ride them for an heat duration. So if your sessions are limited in time (you have got to get to work), a small board makes sense. And since I am retired, I do not use the 7'8" very much as I tend to enjoy longer sessions...

- Swing weight reduction is one benefit of going smaller. So you do not need to actually go small if you get a light board. I use a lot my 8'1" x 120 liters because it only weights 5.8kg on my scale with pad (5.2kg for the 7'8") , with an extremely light nose. It is then much more efficient for me for open face surfing than a smaller but heavier board, eg. a typical 8'0" x 28"3/4 x 99l but at 6.7kg (announced, may be actually more) will feel more cumbersome than my 8'1" x 29"3/4 x 120l from its 20% extra weight

Actually, these short (less than 7') but voluminous (125l), comfy (29"+ width) and light SUP boards is one of the reasons I do not foil anymore. I get nearly all the accelerations (not speed) of a foil without the hurdles. The wetted surface of such a SUP when planing is similar to a big winged foil...

So, no need to go small... go light!

- BUT: A small board, and especially a narrow one, is definitively more at ease and feel safer in hollow waves, if you want to stay and maneuver in the pocket. However, here in Hossegor, such peaks attract crowds of good prone surfers. So I end up not using my 7'8" x 105l board a lot... as the conditions where it would be worth the challenge are too crowded, when I can find empty peaks of less quality.

breathofmaggot
24 posts
6 Sep 2021 5:52PM
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colas said..
In my experience:

- You can manage very small performance SUP sizes, as long as you are focused. Basically the more I reduce my board size, the less I am able to stay at peak performance. For my 97kg, I have two boards with the same shape, performance narrow-ish nose (Gong Alley), in 7'8" x 27"3/4 x 105l and 8'1" x 29"3/4 x 120l

I must limit my sessions to 45mn with the 7'8", as after 30mn I am too tired to stay efficient. But I can stay hours and even relax while standing up on the 8'1". I thus understand that contestants can get away with very small boards as they only have to ride them for an heat duration. So if your sessions are limited in time (you have got to get to work), a small board makes sense. And since I am retired, I do not use the 7'8" very much as I tend to enjoy longer sessions...

- Swing weight reduction is one benefit of going smaller. So you do not need to actually go small if you get a light board. I use a lot my 8'1" x 120 liters because it only weights 5.8kg on my scale with pad (5.2kg for the 7'8") , with an extremely light nose. It is then much more efficient for me for open face surfing than a smaller but heavier board, eg. a typical 8'0" x 28"3/4 x 99l but at 6.7kg (announced, may be actually more) will feel more cumbersome than my 8'1" x 29"3/4 x 120l from its 20% extra weight

Actually, these short (less than 7') but voluminous (125l), comfy (29"+ width) and light SUP boards is one of the reasons I do not foil anymore. I get nearly all the accelerations (not speed) of a foil without the hurdles. The wetted surface of such a SUP when planing is similar to a big winged foil...

So, no need to go small... go light!

- BUT: A small board, and especially a narrow one, is definitively more at ease and feel safer in hollow waves, if you want to stay and maneuver in the pocket. However, here in Hossegor, such peaks attract crowds of good prone surfers. So I end up not using my 7'8" x 105l board a lot... as the conditions where it would be worth the challenge are too crowded, when I can find empty peaks of less quality.





'If you want to stay and maneuver in the pocket'

See there's the problem, all I want to do is stall and glide whilst waiting for an end section to take my daily frustrations out on. (95% brought on by myself)

I actually now remember, there was one time out snapper rocks where Jackson close was on his SUP. It was about 1 foot Max. He was clocking double the speed everyone else was out there. It was wally but definitely not sucky for that place.

goggo
NSW, 159 posts
6 Sep 2021 8:23PM
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shiny said..
Great question. Whereas I think a mid length or longboard shape sup can definitely be the best board for fat or slow or weak waves, very hard to identify conditions where a performance sup shape is actually the best board for the conditions. A performance sup shape will outperform other sup shapes in bowly, hollow or more powerful waves. However, generally in these 'good' waves I reckon it's hard to argue that a skilled surfer on a short board / surf board will not be the best performer. Only exception I would suggest is rip bowls where I think a performance sup shape can have the edge. Think Mo Freitas at solid Haleiwa where the extra volume of the sup gives more drive and flow vs a shortboard while still allowing for critical vertical surfing.
Personally I surf small performance sups almost exclusively. I love the technical challenge of small sups and pushing my own performance as far as possible. I am yet to find a shortboard that can deliver the sheer drive and power of a sup. However, line up videos of pro surfers vs the elite sup surfers in similar waves and i think it's clear who is doing the highest performance surfing. On the other hand go down to your local fat beach break on a Sunday and a good sup rider can be outperforming hoards of weekend warriors on an assortment of fish, mid lengths and fun surf board shapes .. Think any one of a dozen of Casso's videos that get posted on this site!


Keahi, Kai, Zane and numerous others show how and when the shortboard style sup is king, now, it is even harder to know what to ride with all the foil sports in the mix.

breathofmaggot
24 posts
7 Sep 2021 3:32AM
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goggo said..

shiny said..
Great question. Whereas I think a mid length or longboard shape sup can definitely be the best board for fat or slow or weak waves, very hard to identify conditions where a performance sup shape is actually the best board for the conditions. A performance sup shape will outperform other sup shapes in bowly, hollow or more powerful waves. However, generally in these 'good' waves I reckon it's hard to argue that a skilled surfer on a short board / surf board will not be the best performer. Only exception I would suggest is rip bowls where I think a performance sup shape can have the edge. Think Mo Freitas at solid Haleiwa where the extra volume of the sup gives more drive and flow vs a shortboard while still allowing for critical vertical surfing.
Personally I surf small performance sups almost exclusively. I love the technical challenge of small sups and pushing my own performance as far as possible. I am yet to find a shortboard that can deliver the sheer drive and power of a sup. However, line up videos of pro surfers vs the elite sup surfers in similar waves and i think it's clear who is doing the highest performance surfing. On the other hand go down to your local fat beach break on a Sunday and a good sup rider can be outperforming hoards of weekend warriors on an assortment of fish, mid lengths and fun surf board shapes .. Think any one of a dozen of Casso's videos that get posted on this site!



Keahi, Kai, Zane and numerous others show how and when the shortboard style sup is king, now, it is even harder to know what to ride with all the foil sports in the mix.


Oh **** me! Those things look the funniest of all. You use one?

goggo
NSW, 159 posts
7 Sep 2021 8:20AM
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Select to expand quote
goggo said..


shiny said..
Great question. Whereas I think a mid length or longboard shape sup can definitely be the best board for fat or slow or weak waves, very hard to identify conditions where a performance sup shape is actually the best board for the conditions. A performance sup shape will outperform other sup shapes in bowly, hollow or more powerful waves. However, generally in these 'good' waves I reckon it's hard to argue that a skilled surfer on a short board / surf board will not be the best performer. Only exception I would suggest is rip bowls where I think a performance sup shape can have the edge. Think Mo Freitas at solid Haleiwa where the extra volume of the sup gives more drive and flow vs a shortboard while still allowing for critical vertical surfing.
Personally I surf small performance sups almost exclusively. I love the technical challenge of small sups and pushing my own performance as far as possible. I am yet to find a shortboard that can deliver the sheer drive and power of a sup. However, line up videos of pro surfers vs the elite sup surfers in similar waves and i think it's clear who is doing the highest performance surfing. On the other hand go down to your local fat beach break on a Sunday and a good sup rider can be outperforming hoards of weekend warriors on an assortment of fish, mid lengths and fun surf board shapes .. Think any one of a dozen of Casso's videos that get posted on this site!




Keahi, Kai, Zane and numerous others show how and when the shortboard style sup is king, now, it is even harder to know what to ride with all the foil sports in the mix.



shiny
10 posts
7 Sep 2021 6:59AM
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Yep, you could mount an argument that the earlier entry and extra volume to mow over the foam balls gave the sup the edge at cloud break that day. Probably my all time favourite sup footage. Keahi's skill to hold his rail in and take such a high line to get through is next level. Looks to be same board as my daily ride - 7'2" x 25" x 82l jp surf pro. Rails at the tail very fine for bite and hold, but still get fatter through the mid section and nose. I take my hat off to him how well he surfs it!

goggo
NSW, 159 posts
7 Sep 2021 10:32AM
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Select to expand quote
shiny said..
Yep, you could mount an argument that the earlier entry and extra volume to mow over the foam balls gave the sup the edge at cloud break that day. Probably my all time favourite sup footage. Keahi's skill to hold his rail in and take such a high line to get through is next level. Looks to be same board as my daily ride - 7'2" x 25" x 82l jp surf pro. Rails at the tail very fine for bite and hold, but still get fatter through the mid section and nose. I take my hat off to him how well he surfs it!

I reckon it is the attitude and skill of the rider that gives the edge, most equipment is workable these days.
How much do you weigh? I am too large at 95 Kg to ride such a board. Had a go of a mates 8'6" Vex pro, no volume stated but estimate around 120L, it was a bit more stable than my 8'6" Mad Dog. Seemed to go well, he only had stock Surfboard Wharehouse fins so I reckon it would be much better with decent fins.
I am looking to go a bit longer and more stable as I usually ride my sups where a long paddle is involved or I want to explore multiple peaks.

breathofmaggot
24 posts
7 Sep 2021 9:00AM
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goggo said..

shiny said..
Yep, you could mount an argument that the earlier entry and extra volume to mow over the foam balls gave the sup the edge at cloud break that day. Probably my all time favourite sup footage. Keahi's skill to hold his rail in and take such a high line to get through is next level. Looks to be same board as my daily ride - 7'2" x 25" x 82l jp surf pro. Rails at the tail very fine for bite and hold, but still get fatter through the mid section and nose. I take my hat off to him how well he surfs it!


I reckon it is the attitude and skill of the rider that gives the edge, most equipment is workable these days.
How much do you weigh? I am too large at 95 Kg to ride such a board. Had a go of a mates 8'6" Vex pro, no volume stated but estimate around 120L, it was a bit more stable than my 8'6" Mad Dog. Seemed to go well, he only had stock Surfboard Wharehouse fins so I reckon it would be much better with decent fins.
I am looking to go a bit longer and more stable as I usually ride my sups where a long paddle is involved or I want to explore multiple peaks.


What's the mad dog you own?

goggo
NSW, 159 posts
7 Sep 2021 12:34PM
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Select to expand quote
breathofmaggot said..

goggo said..


shiny said..
Yep, you could mount an argument that the earlier entry and extra volume to mow over the foam balls gave the sup the edge at cloud break that day. Probably my all time favourite sup footage. Keahi's skill to hold his rail in and take such a high line to get through is next level. Looks to be same board as my daily ride - 7'2" x 25" x 82l jp surf pro. Rails at the tail very fine for bite and hold, but still get fatter through the mid section and nose. I take my hat off to him how well he surfs it!



I reckon it is the attitude and skill of the rider that gives the edge, most equipment is workable these days.
How much do you weigh? I am too large at 95 Kg to ride such a board. Had a go of a mates 8'6" Vex pro, no volume stated but estimate around 120L, it was a bit more stable than my 8'6" Mad Dog. Seemed to go well, he only had stock Surfboard Wharehouse fins so I reckon it would be much better with decent fins.
I am looking to go a bit longer and more stable as I usually ride my sups where a long paddle is involved or I want to explore multiple peaks.



What's the mad dog you own?


8'6" 121 L carbon
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Naish-Mad-Dog

shiny
10 posts
7 Sep 2021 2:02PM
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70kg, so enough volume. JP a very tippy board compared to some others around that vol. Eg, I also have 7'6" x 26" x 79l infinity b-line and 7'7" x 27" x 80l fanatic pro wave, both of which are much more stable. JP tail very narrow and rocker through the board pretty aggressive. Great to surf, but hard work stability wise. The steeper the wave the better the jp goes. Narrow tail on jp gives more control, but trade off is less speed generation in fatter waves vs eg the infinity b-line which has a wider jet tail. And to Colas' point re swing weight, jp short and light and turns very tight in the pocket.
would love to pull the trigger on the new starboard pro 6'8" x 24" x 76l, but not without a demo .

breathofmaggot
24 posts
10 Sep 2021 4:00AM
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shiny said..
70kg, so enough volume. JP a very tippy board compared to some others around that vol. Eg, I also have 7'6" x 26" x 79l infinity b-line and 7'7" x 27" x 80l fanatic pro wave, both of which are much more stable. JP tail very narrow and rocker through the board pretty aggressive. Great to surf, but hard work stability wise. The steeper the wave the better the jp goes. Narrow tail on jp gives more control, but trade off is less speed generation in fatter waves vs eg the infinity b-line which has a wider jet tail. And to Colas' point re swing weight, jp short and light and turns very tight in the pocket.
would love to pull the trigger on the new starboard pro 6'8" x 24" x 76l, but not without a demo .


What conditions do you find the jp works best in? And do you feel like your about to fall off any second whilst paddling on it?

shiny
10 posts
10 Sep 2021 2:29PM
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2' - 4' hollow beaches or reefs best. Fatter beachies at 3'-5', especially if offshore winds are holding up the wave face a bit. So very much geared towards more powerful waves. Like all boards, clean conditions best.
And when it comes to stability, any chop, rips, boils, or backwash definitely makes it very tricky. I take the jp out in all conditions (rather than swapping to a larger more stable board) so I have tuned up my balance for the board. However, if conditions are not perfect I will still fall off multiple times over a session. And as others have commented in other threads, you have to keep moving the whole time to maintain some stability.

breathofmaggot
24 posts
12 Sep 2021 1:43PM
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shiny said..
2' - 4' hollow beaches or reefs best. Fatter beachies at 3'-5', especially if offshore winds are holding up the wave face a bit. So very much geared towards more powerful waves. Like all boards, clean conditions best.
And when it comes to stability, any chop, rips, boils, or backwash definitely makes it very tricky. I take the jp out in all conditions (rather than swapping to a larger more stable board) so I have tuned up my balance for the board. However, if conditions are not perfect I will still fall off multiple times over a session. And as others have commented in other threads, you have to keep moving the whole time to maintain some stability.


Yeah, so basically it's a shortboard shape so it rides in shortboard conditions but a touch fatter due to the volume. Surfboard shape sup rides like a surfboard and likes those conditions, haha, how did I miss this!

I took mine out d bah today, and paddled over the river (southern breakwall) as well. Over the river was torture cause it was full blown northerly a-frames. You get up and then the wave dies. Would have been great for the widebody with more glide.

D bah was fun though. Low tide and I was mostly prone paddling due to the northerly but caught a couple standing up. Went sick in the wally sucky d-bah walls.

Do you have any strategy for feet adjustment for the lower volume compared to high volume boards?

shiny
10 posts
13 Sep 2021 7:31AM
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Some good threads on this already up. Not sure how to link. However, hybrid stance (ie, halfway between surf and parallel) with feet pretty close together near the stringer / centre line. Flex through ankles and knees to let board move with energy / forces in the water. But also very switched on to timing paddle strokes to counteract / pull through bumps / lumps / boils etc. Never really gets easy - just less difficult.

LostSkill
NSW, 11 posts
13 Sep 2021 6:58PM
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breathofmaggot said..
I've got an 8.2, 27. Shortboard sup shape. Narrow nose square tail. Wrote a thread a few months back detailing progression of standing on it. Ive got that dialed now but it is deadset not worth the extra effort for the performance you get out of it. Might go a little faster in the pocket but it is so much harder to run up and down the board to turn whilst maintaining speed. If you run up to middle to get some speed it's so much more work to keep the speed whilst simultaneously shifting down the board, and rail, to dig a turn in. For the effort I seriously reckon there's little advantage to riding a shorty. My 8'2 widebody covers most conditions up to 4 foot. If it's too sucky for that then a fish or shortboard is way more enjoyment then the shortboard sup shape. What would the conditions one of these shapes trumps every other surf craft?

It sounds like you have a bigger wave design board but without the narrow tail for easier turning.
Since you are used to the width of a narrower board maybe try to demo a modern design around the 7'6 length so you wont need to walk on the board so much.

breathofmaggot
24 posts
Friday , 17 Sep 2021 4:40PM
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LostSkill said..


breathofmaggot said..
I've got an 8.2, 27. Shortboard sup shape. Narrow nose square tail. Wrote a thread a few months back detailing progression of standing on it. Ive got that dialed now but it is deadset not worth the extra effort for the performance you get out of it. Might go a little faster in the pocket but it is so much harder to run up and down the board to turn whilst maintaining speed. If you run up to middle to get some speed it's so much more work to keep the speed whilst simultaneously shifting down the board, and rail, to dig a turn in. For the effort I seriously reckon there's little advantage to riding a shorty. My 8'2 widebody covers most conditions up to 4 foot. If it's too sucky for that then a fish or shortboard is way more enjoyment then the shortboard sup shape. What would the conditions one of these shapes trumps every other surf craft?



It sounds like you have a bigger wave design board but without the narrow tail for easier turning.
Since you are used to the width of a narrower board maybe try to demo a modern design around the 7'6 length so you wont need to walk on the board so much.





What do you reckon?

LostSkill
NSW, 11 posts
Friday , 17 Sep 2021 7:46PM
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Looks like a nice deep board. A suggestion would be to trim up your pad around the edges so its away from the rail like the front blue section. It will help reduce drag in deep carves.

colas
4345 posts
Saturday , 17 Sep 2021 11:12PM
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LostSkill said..
Looks like a nice deep board. A suggestion would be to trim up your pad around the edges so its away from the rail like the front blue section. It will help reduce drag in deep carves.


Or better, replace with bands of ultra-thin grip like hexatraction, verstraction, ...
Otherwise your toes may slip if you misplace your foot a bit, and it is not a nice experience :-)

LostSkill
NSW, 11 posts
Saturday , 18 Sep 2021 12:54PM
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Your pad looks neat Colas. I have no experience in hexa traction and will buy some in future as using wax for now upfront. I used to have wax at the rear but dont really find my foot goes to the side too much being a nice thinned out rail.
I was going to trim the whole grip as do find it catching up front on bigger waves ( bottom turn). The issue is the sunova grip is 2 part epoxy glued on and unless you are going to clearcoat/hotcoat after, it looks like crap.
Already on the hunt for a narrower board and hoping will get to fit the grip my own way.


colas
4345 posts
Saturday , 18 Sep 2021 3:16PM
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LostSkill said..
The issue is the sunova grip is 2 part epoxy glued on and unless you are going to clearcoat/hotcoat after, it looks like crap.


Well, epoxy-glueing the pad is a good cheap solution to avoid having pads which can get unglued.

It is true that I have already removed parts of the pad of production boards to replace with lighter ones.

For light pads, I like hexatraction for SUPs front section (ultralight and very transparent), or Wax Mat for surfboards or SUP rear section (more grip, but softer so no rash, but a bit heavier and less transparent), or the front section of longboard shapes



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"Shorter, performance sup shapes" started by breathofmaggot