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Fin and stability question

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Created by Troxaris A week ago, 5 Sep 2019
Troxaris
8 posts
5 Sep 2019 6:11PM
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Hi everyone!

Warmest greetings.

I had a question to you specialists on a stability issue I have had since I bought a new SUP.

I was previously on a 10'6 X32, 190lt Mistral monster and decided recently to go for a Fanatic Stubby 8'7 X 29,5, 120lt which I found at a good price.

Problem is that the areas where I most SUP-Surf (eastern Meditteranean, Greece) are very choppy (+windy) with mediocre (5-6 sec) wave duration especially in the summer. As a result I found it hard to remain on the board and to stably paddle to waves plus my wave catching ratio really decreased compared to that on my 10'6 board. I know I probably need more time on the Stubby but I had a question re: possible ways to increase stability on choppy sea.

Would it make sense/difference to change the fins of the board? It comes with 3 five-inch (thruster) future fins from Fanatic. I think there's no way to buy a single long fin (which was my first thought) but the board does have 5 (future type) boxes so a quad might be an option. Also I realize that future thruster and quad fins are not categorized by inch but by size as in small-medium-large. Does anyone know which size it would make sense to get (large?) in order to increase stability?

Any thoughts would be really welcome.
Thanks

T

benjl
253 posts
5 Sep 2019 7:11PM
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Hi there

been there, tried that. My experience was that if you're trying to change fins to gain stability then it's probBly not going to be enough to suit you.
having said that, I found quad fins were less stable than a thruster set up. A longer centre will probably help a little with side to side paddling stability but it's really just time and experience on the board

colas
3370 posts
5 Sep 2019 7:33PM
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No, bigger fins will not help stability.
They can even be a hindrance in chop as they will catch water movements and mess with your corrective actions.

Where fins can help is to help with the row effect on very short boards (less than 7'6"), with fins with a longer chord, such as the C-Drive to provide grip at very low speeds, when you begin to pull on the paddle.

But not on a 8'7", you must just enhance your technique: foot positioning, supple knees, better reading of the waves, wave placement, ...

Bighugg
NT, 247 posts
5 Sep 2019 9:13PM
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My take on choppy conditions is to Twin it ,
pop your center, let's the board flex / squidgel with the chop . You may have to go L or XL in Twin for Drive.
Let's me find my balance n boards stance sweet spot, then go back to your originals.
Will also make you work on paddle stroke.

wazza66
QLD, 471 posts
6 Sep 2019 12:38PM
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colas said..
No, bigger fins will not help stability.
They can even be a hindrance in chop as they will catch water movements and mess with your corrective actions.

Where fins can help is to help with the row effect on very short boards (less than 7'6"), with fins with a longer chord, such as the C-Drive to provide grip at very low speeds, when you begin to pull on the paddle.

But not on a 8'7", you must just enhance your technique: foot positioning, supple knees, better reading of the waves, wave placement, ...


I agree with Colas on this one. We all started on bigger boards and have worked our way down to smaller boards. Its the nature of the beast , the the smaller you ride the harder it is too balance on .

Changing your fins won't help with stability but spending time on the water in different conditions will soon hopefully improve your leg and core strength which will help you with your balance/stability.

I surf my feet on my 7'10 in a slightly off center position with my left foot further forward than my right and knees slightly bent and keep paddling for momentum.

Don't waste time on changing fins over until you can stand on it comfortably by spending time on the water.

Everyone struggles in the chop

Troxaris
8 posts
9 Sep 2019 4:27AM
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Guys, many many thanks for the responses. That's really useful and it comfirmed my sense that I do need to spend much more time on the board. @wazza66 I liked the stance description as it sort of echoes a reflex I got during the choppy experience with my new SUP. I hadn't even thought about a twin as possibility, but thanks @Bighugg for the suggestion. @Colas I hear you on all fronts-- will try on work on all those things. And @Benjl thanks for this-- quad doesn't seem suitable plus a center fin doesn't apply to my board with its thruster or quad configuration. I anyway haven't found anyplace where you can buy the future quad or thruster-style fins as singles.
Thanks again!
t

ghost4man
307 posts
9 Sep 2019 5:37AM
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Troxaris said..
Hi everyone!

Warmest greetings.

I had a question to you specialists on a stability issue I have had since I bought a new SUP.

I was previously on a 10'6 X32, 190lt Mistral monster and decided recently to go for a Fanatic Stubby 8'7 X 29,5, 120lt which I found at a good price.

Problem is that the areas where I most SUP-Surf (eastern Meditteranean, Greece) are very choppy (+windy) with mediocre (5-6 sec) wave duration especially in the summer. As a result I found it hard to remain on the board and to stably paddle to waves plus my wave catching ratio really decreased compared to that on my 10'6 board. I know I probably need more time on the Stubby but I had a question re: possible ways to increase stability on choppy sea.

Would it make sense/difference to change the fins of the board? It comes with 3 five-inch (thruster) future fins from Fanatic. I think there's no way to buy a single long fin (which was my first thought) but the board does have 5 (future type) boxes so a quad might be an option. Also I realize that future thruster and quad fins are not categorized by inch but by size as in small-medium-large. Does anyone know which size it would make sense to get (large?) in order to increase stability?

Any thoughts would be really welcome.
Thanks

T


There is a detailed thread on the forum where we discuss at length the techniques involved in promoting better stability.

I have personally invested much time in this as I ride two board sizes - 7"2 x 27 and now a 7"7 x 29 which are well under what you are riding.

I'll find the link to it but basically you bring your feet much much closer together with a split stance that depends on your sweet spot as well.

The intuitive approach seems to be to widen the stance but in fact the exact opposite is what works.

colas
3370 posts
9 Sep 2019 12:33PM
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ghost4man said..
There is a detailed thread on the forum where we discuss at length the techniques involved in promoting better stability.


Here it is:
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Mastering-lateral-balance-on-a-small-SUP-board

At your level, you should just remember to have a narrow stance.
Try to have supple knees, look straight ahead, use your paddle as a third leg but having it in the water to balance on, not in the air, ...
Try to roll your board yourself, to feel in control rather than fearing the chop, ...
... and practice.

Troxaris
8 posts
Yesterday , 17 Sep 2019 5:54AM
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Hadn't conceived of narrow stance usefulness-- thanks guys! Yes-- absolutely on paddle as third leg and will try more to roll the board. Reading the other thread too-- really useful.

FRP
326 posts
Yesterday , 17 Sep 2019 1:15PM
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Troxaris said..
Hadn't conceived of narrow stance usefulness-- thanks guys! Yes-- absolutely on paddle as third leg and will try more to roll the board. Reading the other thread too-- really useful.



Troxaris,

There is a small thing that I do when paddling in significant chop. The "head dink"....he waits for the laughter to subside. This is a common kayaking bracing technique that I brought with me to standup paddling. It goes like this. If you are falling to the right there is an almost overwhelming desire to throw your head and shoulders to your left which oddly moves your Center of gravity slightly more to your right and you fall in to your right. If on the other hand when you are initially falling to your right you "dink your head" slightly to your right combined with a small brace with your paddle on your right your Center of gravity will shift slightly to your left and ...... you regain your balance. Weird and it is an unnatural movement but it does keep me upright more often than not.

Cheers

Bob

colas
3370 posts
Yesterday , 17 Sep 2019 1:47PM
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FRP said..
If you are falling to the right there is an almost overwhelming desire to throw your head and shoulders to your left which oddly moves your Center of gravity slightly more to your right and you fall in to your right.


Thanks a lot! I have been observing this phenomenon, but tried to focus on leg movements to counter it by "rag dolling" my left leg to force by body to fall to the left, my reasoning was to avoid the lifting left rail to push my body to the right through a stiff left leg.

I will try your "dink your head" technique, seems great!

surfinJ
433 posts
Yesterday , 17 Sep 2019 3:25PM
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FRP said..

Troxaris said..
Hadn't conceived of narrow stance usefulness-- thanks guys! Yes-- absolutely on paddle as third leg and will try more to roll the board. Reading the other thread too-- really useful.




Troxaris,

There is a small thing that I do when paddling in significant chop. The "head dink"....he waits for the laughter to subside. This is a common kayaking bracing technique that I brought with me to standup paddling. It goes like this. If you are falling to the right there is an almost overwhelming desire to throw your head and shoulders to your left which oddly moves your Center of gravity slightly more to your right and you fall in to your right. If on the other hand when you are initially falling to your right you "dink your head" slightly to your right combined with a small brace with your paddle on your right your Center of gravity will shift slightly to your left and ...... you regain your balance. Weird and it is an unnatural movement but it does keep me upright more often than not.

Cheers

Bob


You know, I sometimes avoid a fall by doing I think this. Each time it felt weird and I did not really get what I did.
I am going check it out. A bit chopped up with an onshore wind but the bouy has gone from 3 to 6 and the tide is dropping.
Gonna grab a large and wide one and try some dinking.

Mark Horn
WA, 12 posts
Yesterday , 17 Sep 2019 5:18PM
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FRP said..


Troxaris said..
Hadn't conceived of narrow stance usefulness-- thanks guys! Yes-- absolutely on paddle as third leg and will try more to roll the board. Reading the other thread too-- really useful.





Troxaris,

There is a small thing that I do when paddling in significant chop. The "head dink"....he waits for the laughter to subside. This is a common kayaking bracing technique that I brought with me to standup paddling. It goes like this. If you are falling to the right there is an almost overwhelming desire to throw your head and shoulders to your left which oddly moves your Center of gravity slightly more to your right and you fall in to your right. If on the other hand when you are initially falling to your right you "dink your head" slightly to your right combined with a small brace with your paddle on your right your Center of gravity will shift slightly to your left and ...... you regain your balance. Weird and it is an unnatural movement but it does keep me upright more often than not.

Cheers

Bob



Talk about timing! I was only just thinking this very thing this morning walking to the bus. My thought was, is there something that seems counter intuitive that would actually aid balance. I was focusing on my hips though. Move your hips one way and your head dinks the other. Dink your head one way and your hips move the other. Now that I know I'm onto a good thing I'm never going to fall off, FRP has confirmed it

ghost4man
307 posts
2 hours ago , 18 Sep 2019 1:32AM
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Select to expand quote
FRP said..

Troxaris said..
Hadn't conceived of narrow stance usefulness-- thanks guys! Yes-- absolutely on paddle as third leg and will try more to roll the board. Reading the other thread too-- really useful.




Troxaris,

There is a small thing that I do when paddling in significant chop. The "head dink"....he waits for the laughter to subside. This is a common kayaking bracing technique that I brought with me to standup paddling. It goes like this. If you are falling to the right there is an almost overwhelming desire to throw your head and shoulders to your left which oddly moves your Center of gravity slightly more to your right and you fall in to your right. If on the other hand when you are initially falling to your right you "dink your head" slightly to your right combined with a small brace with your paddle on your right your Center of gravity will shift slightly to your left and ...... you regain your balance. Weird and it is an unnatural movement but it does keep me upright more often than not.

Cheers

Bob


5 o'clock at the airport in Hawaii and reading this quite tired but not really getting it.

Can you do a drawing or something to show what's going on please.

Any videos of this in kayaking as an example.

Cheers.

FRP
326 posts
1 hour ago , 18 Sep 2019 2:22AM
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Hi Ghost
Yes this is a fairly basic kayak bracing maneuver. Dropping your head towards the side you are falling. It doesn't have to be much of a motion. If you are falling to the right just "dink" you head towards your right shoulder is often enough to counter the tendency to move your head to the left. Below is a kayak link to the description. Obviously on a SUP we are connected to the craft only with our feet but it seems the principle is the same. Hope this helps.
Cheers
Bob

FromDeReimer Adventure KayakingBraces and the Body; what's the connection?This is one of a three part series designed to transform your brace into a bombproof skill that will work in most river situations and never hurt your shoulder. First we cover what the body does. Next we'll cover using the paddle in the low and high brace positions.What you'll discover is that your BODY rights the boat. The PADDLE centers your body over the righted boat. In a bomber brace, these two actions occur simultaneously. Because it's difficult to learn more than one counter-Intuitive motion at a time, first learn the action of the body to right the boat effortlessly.Believe it or not, the head bone's connected to the hip bone, the hip bone's connected to the knee bone, and the knee bone's connected to your boat! Therefore, it is what you do with your head that is the overriding factor in whether the brace you're doing is effortless and effective.DrillSit on the floor as though you are in your kayak. Tilt your "boat" on edge by lifting one cheek off the floor.Balance yourself by keeping your hands in the air below and in front of your shoulders on either side of your body.Notice that your spine curves toward the high hip/knee in an effort to counterbalance. When the river puts you in this position the instinctive response is to keep the head as far above the water as possible. This however, only serves to pull up harder on the knee that's already too high for balance. This negative spiral continues until, despite all efforts with the paddle, your head succeeds in pulling your boat far enough off balance that it causes you to flip. The river provided the initial instability, your head caused your flip!To right an over-edged boat, the knee that's going underwater must pull up to level things out. Knowing that the head bone is circuitously connected to the hip/knee bones, you can switch the direction that the head moves to succeed in pulling up on the correct knee!
What? Drop your head into the fall?Yep, by dropping your head toward the water you:1. lower your center of gravity2. disengage the knee that's pulling the boat over and3. ENGAGE the knee that rights the boat.The hinge point of this motion is at the waist - laterally. Another way to get full use of this righting motion Is to drive the rib-cage-under-you're-armpit, inward toward the spine. Remember though, the head and knee are the "ends" of this hinge so to get the fullest range of motion use the head to pull the knee up.

FRP
326 posts
1 hour ago , 18 Sep 2019 2:36AM
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Hi Ghost
Here is a little video. Watch how his head moves towards the side he is falling towards. It is subtle and stupidly hard to get your head to do this. It is not a natural movement but for experienced kayakers it is instinctual and integral to staying upright. I have not really figured out why this works for SUP but my guess is that by "dinking" your head you move your Center of gravity and unweight the leg on the side you are falling towards.

cheers
Bob



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"Fin and stability question" started by Troxaris