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Retro Fitting a Foil onto a Surfboard Warehouse BamBam SUP

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Created by benwgrozier 23 days ago, 2 Feb 2018
benwgrozier
WA, 2 posts
2 Feb 2018 12:12PM
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Hi all, what do the masses think about retro fitting a GoFoil onto one of the Surfboard Warehouse Bam Bam SUPs (looks like i'd need to buy second hand as they don't seem to make them anymore)

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Atlantis-Bam-Bam?page=1

The shape looks similar to the $2700 Naish Hover: www.oceanaddicts.com.au/shop/stand-up-paddle/2018-naish-hover-120-sup-hydrofoiling-board/ - 120L vs 124L

Would love your thoughts.

Ben

colas
2363 posts
2 Feb 2018 3:33PM
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I had a Gong Fatal, of which the BamBam was a (unauthorized) copy.

It would make a nice foil board, light and compact, with the caveat that it is quite tricky to paddle on if you are not used to very short SUPs. It is short, wide, and with a curved outline, so it had tons of row effect. The Naish Hover is more of the Tomo shape: it is a bit longer, narrower, and with a straighter outline, so it will be simpler to paddle if you are not used to very short SUPs. If you look at the current Gong line, its current hybrid SUP/foil board is based on this kind of "Tomo" shape (The Gong Mob) rather than the Fatal shape.

So I guess the BamBam should make a decent foil board, but not the easiest to learn on.

The Gong line had also at the time a similar board, but with a straighter outline, the "One", that would be more adapted to foiling, but I do not think it was copied by Atlantis.

The straps inserts will be of course very useful for foiling.

If you get a BamBam, I would advise to keep twin keel fins in the rear boxes to help with the row effect for your first attempts.

Seajuice
NSW, 148 posts
2 Feb 2018 6:45PM
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It might be ok. But I believe the Bam Bam would be harder to get your speed up before lifting onto the foil due to the rails & rocker. Plus Naish has done their homework to get the best out of their boards to get up & foil.
In saying that. I think it would still be possible with the Bam Bam once up on the foil as it is short & the right size to manouver the foil. I think the hardest part would be getting up on the foil & also recovery when the Bam Bam makes contact with the water.
If the Bam Bam has got good paddle speed, then this will help more so.
I have tried a Coreban Hyper 7ft. It is difficult to get up & running behind a boat due to its excessive nose rocker that pushes water & slows paddle speed. The boat can overcome this. Plus the foil wasn't set exactly parallel to the board.
I am in the process of installing a track mount block in my Coreban Hyper. I will have to pack up the mount plate by up to 15mm at the rear bolts. Plus I have just received a large wing foil similar to a Slingshot H4 wing to try & get it up & running as early as possible with very little pumping I hope! Lol!
The Coreban Hyper is very similar in shape to the Bam Bam & I think it may be a little slower. The Bam Bam seems to have less rocker so maybe more speed to get up & running.

spartacus
NSW, 75 posts
2 Feb 2018 7:44PM
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Hi Benwgrozier,

I stuck a foil mount onto a old 7" 2 ' Bam Bam I had to get an idea of what size board I could foil on (that I I couldn't wait to try the Naish foil out & it was the ****est board I had to sacrifice). The stick on mount did delaminate the board within a month. Some boards can handle the mounts (Naish) but cheapo Bam Bams cannot.

Even though the mast angles were not 100%, it paddled like I was dragging a sea anchor. Only way to get onto a wave was to take the peak. Might as well been on my short surfboard. Once on the foil, the swing weight was awesome - have a great time.

Then it's time to paddle back out!!!!

I've since put the foil onto a Sunova Foil SUP - 7" 8'. this is definitely easier to paddle, but still a lot of work to get swell speed to catch the waves. I'm sure this is me & once I learn to paddle & pump in the take off I'm sure this will be OK.

7" 8' seems to be bugger all swing weight once you are foiling. But I am thinking about putting some tracks into an old 9" board until I get the take off speed better.

colas
2363 posts
2 Feb 2018 5:05PM
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"The stick on mount did delaminate the board within a month" - Stick on mounts will delaminate all boards, especially those without a sandwich construction on the bottom. Basically, you need to anchor also the box(es) to the deck to have any hope of having a durable setup.

"it paddled like I was dragging a sea anchor" - this means your foil wing was at a negative angle. With a neutral or slightly positive, paddling with a foil is not much slower than without (but the balance is different). This is the problem with retrofitting foils on standard SUPs: people do not realize how much they must tilt the mast forwards to compensate the rocker, especially if they place it close to the tail

Learning to foil is much easier with a board long enough that you can apply full paddling power to get maximum paddling speed without any row effect. At least for the 10 first sessions. It is very similar to learning to surf actually: you cannot hope to take off on a shortboard until you master your body movements so that popping up helps taking off rather than stop you: in the meantime, using the longboard that you just motor up to speed for taking off, impervious to your body movements is the key to learn fast.

stevet73
NSW, 26 posts
2 Feb 2018 9:48PM
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Have the same bam bam but just finished getting thr h4 slingshot hover glide installed on retro fitted 7"8 hypernut.....10 mins ago!

Feedback seemed to be, getting a board with parallel rails and reasonable wave catching ability....so sourced the used hypernut.

All screws lubed. My virgin ride behind a boat fell through so going for it with the short (L plates) mast early tomorrow.... note safety gear ready in photo.

A bit nervous but bloody excited mainly. Going to a place with no people around....to kill....or laugh at me....

Not sure if I will throw two smaller quad find on the back.....

juandesooka
111 posts
3 Feb 2018 10:24AM
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stevet73 said..


Have the same bam bam but just finished getting thr h4 slingshot hover glide installed on retro fitted 7"8 hypernut.....10 mins ago!

Feedback seemed to be, getting a board with parallel rails and reasonable wave catching ability....so sourced the used hypernut.

All screws lubed. My virgin ride behind a boat fell through so going for it with the short (L plates) mast early tomorrow.... note safety gear ready in photo.

A bit nervous but bloody excited mainly. Going to a place with no people around....to kill....or laugh at me....

Not sure if I will throw two smaller quad find on the back.....


Great tips in this thread, thanks to all.

Steve: board looks great! I am only 5-6 sessions ahead of you. My last one, I took off the fins, found it made the board very squirrelly to paddle. I figure it might be good take them off later, but while learning I think it's better to keep them on. Good call on the safety gear. Those first couple sessions, I cut my wetsuit on wing or mast. Scary wipeouts....I thought maybe a mouthguard or face shield would be nice security for teeth. A tip that helped me: once you start to lose it, don't try to save it, jump off and push it away, above all you don't want to fall on the wings. Also, going too slow can be dangerous: leads to what I call the "Switchblade" wipeout, where you fall to the side, pushing deck to other side away from you, which quickly lifts the wing to where you're falling. That's the bad one. Fun once you know how. :-)

benwgrozier
WA, 2 posts
3 Feb 2018 11:50AM
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What a community. I'm blown away by the quantity and quality of responses. Thanks so much.

Agree re the straighter rails and the preference for the Tomo / Evo shape like the Hover. I hadn't even given consideration to performance / stability once you come down from foiling. I doubt the Bam Bam will cope with this well.

The wipeout story you tell @juandesooka is the 4th i've heard in very quick time and the first one of the 4 that didn't end with some talking of a very big gash. I'll be grabbing the safety gear for sure.

@colas - thanks for you observations re retrofitting the foils.

I'm having a 90 lesson with Balmoral Paddle Surf next week where I hope the get the tips and time to really get off to a good start.

Thanks again everyone.

Ben

colas
2363 posts
3 Feb 2018 5:23PM
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stevet73 said..
just finished getting thr h4 slingshot hover glide installed on retro fitted 7"8 hypernut.....10 mins ago!


Hi steve, it is difficult to see on the picture, but it looks like your foil wing will not be parallel to the water surface when paddling, but angled downwards, which will be horrible. Check it by setting up the board like it would sit on the water like paddling and checking the wing angle, like:



And add a wedge under the plate to correct the angle.

stevet73
NSW, 26 posts
4 Feb 2018 12:33PM
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Thanks colas. Have the wedge in already, about 7mm, and fuselage seems parallel to the mid point if the board-as there is rocker at each end. The bonzer type channel running into the tail also contributes to the 'sloping away' appearance. Foil almost looks a tiny bit up, again comparing to flat point in middle of board. A second, or third, opinion would be most appreciated though.

Had the virgin session yesterday. Short mast in...no brainer for learning. Actually had no wipe outs. Got a 3m, 5m, 5m and super fun 30m run. Kept session short to minimise fatigue/crash factor. Had big poo stance with my 6"1 chicken legs with 'front foot!' mantra looped in head. Even pumped a tiny bit to hop the foil up....it is definitely tricky but found the first session far more fruitful than I would have expected.

Ican see addiction potential... even as a long time short board, sup, and kite surfer.

Thoughts on my foil angle?


Piros
QLD, 4972 posts
4 Feb 2018 1:02PM
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Thoughts on my foil angle

It looks like it's a bit angled forward which is much better than laying back , so I would reduce wedge size , it means you with have to surf nose up when you are up on the foil . 90 degrees to the deck is optimal.

stevet73
NSW, 26 posts
4 Feb 2018 3:57PM
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Thanks piros. I thought so too...but then I tried to set board as equal as possible to water level....see photo.

Looks pretty much 90 degrees....but I don't have an experienced eye...

Is a bit up up if compared to tail....but seems about 90 degrees to main/middle board....

....I've looked at it too long now and don't know if I'm Arthur or Martha!



colas
2363 posts
4 Feb 2018 3:08PM
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Second picture seems perfect!

stevet73
NSW, 26 posts
4 Feb 2018 7:15PM
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Thanks piros. You may note, if u zoom in on previous photo, I've grinded down 2 old fins to help with the row affect.

It wasn't really all that bad (didn't use the fins for virgin session) but thought they couldn't hurt during learning phase.

As it's a quad, I wasn't sure whether to but at most rear or in the forward position-as in photo.

One thing I'm mindful of is if/when/how fins may grab when board slams back into surface during novice practice (going out to far in front of wave)

Make much difference?

colas
2363 posts
4 Feb 2018 8:03PM
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I also use cheap plastic keels grinded to 2" depth on my 6'11" SUP foil on rear boxes. They are quite useful when you touch down by the tail actually, as often a wide tail will have a tendency to skip sideways.
I guess you do not need fins on longer boards, or board specifically designed for foiling (thick square or bodyboard-like rails). But on short boards with wide tails and surf rails, they have no drawbacks and help a lot on takeoff in imperfect conditions where the waves are unpredictable, so you can apply power on a whim.

stevet73
NSW, 26 posts
5 Feb 2018 2:06PM
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Good tip colas...and apologies for calling u piros in last post...ha.

colas
2363 posts
5 Feb 2018 3:32PM
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No worries :-)
I would add that the rear boxes will be better, as they have often less toe-in.
Also, avoid any cant. I tried some bonzer fins with lots of cant, and it was horrible, the rear rails would catch and dig deep all the time.

stevet73
NSW, 26 posts
7 Feb 2018 11:32AM
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Another good tip. Will move fins to rear.....

OceanAddicts
QLD, 321 posts
Site Sponsor
8 Feb 2018 10:52AM
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colas said..
I also use cheap plastic keels grinded to 2" depth on my 6'11" SUP foil on rear boxes. They are quite useful when you touch down by the tail actually, as often a wide tail will have a tendency to skip sideways.
I guess you do not need fins on longer boards, or board specifically designed for foiling (thick square or bodyboard-like rails). But on short boards with wide tails and surf rails, they have no drawbacks and help a lot on takeoff in imperfect conditions where the waves are unpredictable, so you can apply power on a whim.




Im not sure i understand your reasoning on using fins Colas. The foil mast itself is like 15 fins stacked on top of themselves which make any board track reasonably well. Maybe your foil is placed too far forward in the board? I personally prefer no fins as they just add to drag when paddling in. With foiling we want to paddle in super early so the fastest paddling board possible will make that easier.

Cheers,

Ryan

Windgenuity
NSW, 173 posts
Site Sponsor
8 Feb 2018 12:30PM
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OceanAddicts said..

colas said..
I also use cheap plastic keels grinded to 2" depth on my 6'11" SUP foil on rear boxes. They are quite useful when you touch down by the tail actually, as often a wide tail will have a tendency to skip sideways.
I guess you do not need fins on longer boards, or board specifically designed for foiling (thick square or bodyboard-like rails). But on short boards with wide tails and surf rails, they have no drawbacks and help a lot on takeoff in imperfect conditions where the waves are unpredictable, so you can apply power on a whim.





Im not sure i understand your reasoning on using fins Colas. The foil mast itself is like 15 fins stacked on top of themselves which make any board track reasonably well. Maybe your foil is placed too far forward in the board? I personally prefer no fins as they just add to drag when paddling in. With foiling we want to paddle in super early so the fastest paddling board possible will make that easier.

Cheers,

Ryan


Agree, fins are just extra drag and not needed. Good foil placement and technique will alleviate any need for extra tracking.

colas
2363 posts
8 Feb 2018 2:23PM
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OceanAddicts said..
I personally prefer no fins as they just add to drag when paddling in.




Just try them, and you will realize that fins can actually reduce a lot the drag: having a board perfectly aligned with the water flow has a lot less drag than if it is slightly moving sideways. Plus the surface of the 2" fins is negligible compared to the wetted board surface.
And big fins in front can benefit from small fin(s) in rear: just think of the benefits of a small trailer fin for twin fins, or a nubster for quads. Add to this that the foil mast is a single point of rotation around which the board can pivot freely...

Of course, I only need them on my 6'10", and in rough conditions. No need for fins on a 8', or on my 6'10" on glassy water where I can better control my paddling. But I leave them even for glassy conditions, as they have only advantages and no drawbacks.

OceanAddicts
QLD, 321 posts
Site Sponsor
9 Feb 2018 9:48AM
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colas said..

OceanAddicts said..
I personally prefer no fins as they just add to drag when paddling in.





Just try them, and you will realize that fins can actually reduce a lot the drag: having a board perfectly aligned with the water flow has a lot less drag than if it is slightly moving sideways. Plus the surface of the 2" fins is negligible compared to the wetted board surface.
And big fins in front can benefit from small fin(s) in rear: just think of the benefits of a small trailer fin for twin fins, or a nubster for quads. Add to this that the foil mast is a single point of rotation around which the board can pivot freely...

Of course, I only need them on my 6'10", and in rough conditions. No need for fins on a 8', or on my 6'10" on glassy water where I can better control my paddling. But I leave them even for glassy conditions, as they have only advantages and no drawbacks.


Hi Colas,

Yes i have tried fins before. When SUP foiling was new everyone suggested it, and even said they were essential. But i soon realized they served no purpose if you have decent paddling technique. They definitely do catch when you lean your board over and do restrict you in terms of late takeoffs as you often have to pivot the foil off the mast axis very quickly. They also make it harder to paddle over white wash. The increased drag of even a single fin is huge when paddling!! A small trailing fin for a twinny defeats the purpose of a twinny, and nubsters are a fad. If you think you need 5 fins in a board you should film yourself surfing because you aren't using your boards rail . As your paddling skills progress you should be able to take them out. Do you paddle race boards at all? I would suggest you do a little bit of cross training on them if not because they do improve your technique exponentially as you have less variables acting on you.

The only time they would benefit is if your foil is a long way forward. But your foil should be positioned at the rear of the board. A centrally placed foil changes the surfing feeling. More board in front allows you to surf more on the back foot, which what surfing is all about. You will find it much harder to go "rail to rail" with a centrally placed foil.

"Add to this that the foil mast is a single point of rotation around which the board can pivot freely..." excellent description and exactly what we want. With the mast at the rear of the board your paddle stroke can control the direction with ease.

Cheers,

Ryan

colas
2363 posts
9 Feb 2018 2:59PM
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OceanAddicts said..
restrict you in terms of late takeoffs as you often have to pivot the foil off the mast axis very quickly.



Then I guess you never tried the fins stevet73 and I use. With them, the board still can make a U-turn instantly.
Sounds like you used regular, deep fins.
As for paddling technique... I have been using 6'+ SUP boards for six years.

And for your opinion on trailer fins, I would just say:
- With the FCSII system, I have had lots of sessions where I was swapping fins around between waves on the water. Adding/removing a trailer, using assymetrical fin setups, ... Try it, it will both open your mind and have a reality check instead of preconceptions.
- There is a reason people now use thrusters and quads rather than twin fins (or single fin). Having fin(s) at a central pivot point is less reliable than having fins at different place longitudinally. And nubsters definitely help when your quad board have a "shopping trolley cart" feel in the rail-to-rail transition. But not all boards have it.
- "The increased drag of even a single fin is huge when paddling!!" so you should paddle faster with no fin, then. This is absurd and show that, as always in surfing, everything is a compromise. In case of fins for paddling, a compromise between drag from the fin and drag from the board moving somewhat sideways. What I say, and stevet73 discovered, is that 2" deep mini keels can provide this optimal compromise for some boards.

And on piloting from the rear of the board, I think foiling is more flying a plane than surfing. Look at the future of foiling as shown by Austin Kalama lastest videos in Florida for instance. His front foot is now even closer to the nose than his rear foot from the tail... (pic below) If you want to foil with your back foot, you should try canard foils, that will have the main wing under your rear foot, and that people who ride them tell me they feel like surfing (and I am eager to test them myself).In a nutshell: keep and open mind, and actually test things.

coxy31
NSW, 120 posts
9 Feb 2018 8:12PM
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colas said..

OceanAddicts said..
I personally prefer no fins as they just add to drag when paddling in.





Just try them, and you will realize that fins can actually reduce a lot the drag: having a board perfectly aligned with the water flow has a lot less drag than if it is slightly moving sideways. Plus the surface of the 2" fins is negligible compared to the wetted board surface.
And big fins in front can benefit from small fin(s) in rear: just think of the benefits of a small trailer fin for twin fins, or a nubster for quads. Add to this that the foil mast is a single point of rotation around which the board can pivot freely...

Of course, I only need them on my 6'10", and in rough conditions. No need for fins on a 8', or on my 6'10" on glassy water where I can better control my paddling. But I leave them even for glassy conditions, as they have only advantages and no drawbacks.


We are foiling here, what is the board doing in the water??

colas
2363 posts
9 Feb 2018 9:26PM
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coxy31 said..
We are foiling here, what is the board doing in the water??


Yeah, why do planes have even wheels, or brakes, they don't need them!

juandesooka
111 posts
10 Feb 2018 1:18AM
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I am a sup foil noob, maybe 6-7 sessions in. I removed the fins to try it out, but found that the board felt too squirrely when paddling. Maybe I don't use the right paddling technique, but seems to me that each stroke on one side will pull the board that way, which is why you have to switch back and forth. With fins, I can do 3-4 paddles on each side without switching. But if the mast is the only "fin"', because it's centred below me, the board spins on this axis ... so it felt like paddling a sup without any fins at all. This was most noticable taking off on a wave: the fin not only holds the track while paddling, but also keeps the board straight for that initial acceleration. Once up on the foil, no more need for it, fin is out of the water.

My sup has quad fins, not a large single fin. I put the small trailing fins back on.

Seeing all the videos online of the pros, with no fins on these boards, I expect this might be a beginner thing -- training wheels. Once fully competent, I will experiment with removing them.

Piros
QLD, 4972 posts
10 Feb 2018 5:15PM
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colas said..

Yeah, why do planes have even wheels, or brakes, they don't need them!



haha I'll pay that one Colas , yes fins do help when you paddling especially on super short foil boards , BUT paddle technique does overcome this as you get better on the foil. I don't use them but some of my mates still do who are really good sup foilers. If you feel more comfortable with them just leave them in .The majority of custom boards don't have them because they are built for advanced riders.

colas
2363 posts
10 Feb 2018 5:19PM
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juandesooka said..
I expect this might be a beginner thing -- training wheels.



Yes. But is no shame in having gear adapted to ease the learning curve. This is why you do not learn surfing or SUPing on a 6' board.

And this is why we add little wheels for our kids first bike attempts, rather than letting them fall again and again till they get it (or get disgusted).

Remember, we are on the water (or 2' above in this case) to have fun... we are not teenagers anymore, doing things mostly from peer pressure.

On fins, I saw once a picture of Keahi kite foiling with fins on (don't remember if it was here or on facebook). I asked him why, he told me that he was lazy this day and didn't bother removing the fins for this foiling session...

stevet73
NSW, 26 posts
14 Feb 2018 8:09PM
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I'll take anything to soften the learning curve. The little fins did seem to make the hypernut a little less rowy with the foil.

Got out, finally, with the longer 60cm mast..... that's why I wasn't crashing on the learner mast! 100% crashes on the tall mast! But! It was still fun. Conditions were overhead peaks. Clean but with a lot of side and in/out wobbles/wedges. So I wasn't disappointed that I didn't have to much success.

I'm pretty sure that wedge factor, plus the larger peaks, did not make for a easy virgin session on the big mast (Note: Feel free to agree with me here to massage my fragile male ego).

I was a bit anxious to be honest. I was completely solo, had the big mast, and would have preferred a little smaller. But, after a few spectacular swan dives with the safety kit on I realised I could eject safely from if/when needed. So, it was a good confidence booster (even if not aesthetically pleasing).

With favourable learning conditions next time, I'm still really enjoying being a complete kook!



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"Retro Fitting a Foil onto a Surfboard Warehouse BamBam SUP" started by benwgrozier