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Where's your back foot on different maneuvers?

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Created by Kisutch 25 days ago, 27 Aug 2021
Kisutch
90 posts
27 Aug 2021 4:55AM
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Hey all,

On frontside bottom I put back foot on the rail over fin, then back to center, farther back near kickpad for top turn/ cutback -that's where I'm aiming at least:) But what about backside bottom turn- center or on rail? Or a frontside cutback where you do an arcing carve (I've never done one of these, lol only tried). And how bout pumping down line- foot center vs rail, how far back? I realize it depends a bit on the board and the wave, but curious to hear how people approach these turns, thanks

supthecreek
2258 posts
27 Aug 2021 8:35AM
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One of my older videos from back in the nose cam days.
Not a very becoming or watchable viewpoint, BUT.... it is great for watching foot placement on a wave.

It's all backside , but there's a good look at a cutback at 2:30

Also kinda fun to watch me buzz surfers who didn't make the effort to move out of my path

Kisutch
90 posts
27 Aug 2021 9:16AM
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Thanks this is great! I just got the thingy to attach a GoPro to mount on nose, need to try this.
so do you move back foot to rail on any heel side turn or just bottom turn?

supthecreek
2258 posts
27 Aug 2021 9:51AM
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Kisutch said..
Thanks this is great! I just got the thingy to attach a GoPro to mount on nose, need to try this.
so do you move back foot to rail on any heel side turn or just bottom turn?


every heel side turn.... it would be an awkward turn without the heel on the rail, unless on a very small board where you don't have to move your feet at all.

Note about backside surfing:
I have always felt backside SUP surfing was easier than frontside surfing on bigger boards

The heel transfers direct pressure to the rail and your butt hanging out over the rail gives backside a tremendous leverage advantage over frontside turns. This works particularly well on bigger, thick railed boards that are harder to sink a rail on. My first SUP was 36" wide with very thick rails... I only surfed backside because I couldn't turn it going frontside.

colas
4345 posts
27 Aug 2021 1:07PM
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More than the feet position, bending the knees (not the waist) is critical.

Moving your rear foot around can be counter-productive if you are learning to carve turns. It is kind of "cheating" and can mask mistakes in flexion/extension of the legs that will limit your progression. And it will make flowing between turns (rail to rail surfing) awkward and jerky, and make you either fall inside your turn, or have the board over-turn, killing your speed.

An analogy with airplanes would be that flexing/extending is like rolling the plane, moving your rear foot is using the rudder. A good pilot will use mostly rolling to turn, with small adjustments with the rudder. Using only the rudder will brute force turns in hard to control ways.
aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/55597/what-happens-if-only-rudder-is-applied-in-a-turn-without-ailerons-do-the-two-ha

Or for a bike analogy, leaning into the turn vs just turning the handlebar.

Moving your rear foot is important for turning. But first, you should look at surfing tutorials on how to flex/extend in turns. Then you can move your rear foot around, but it will be small adjustments that will not break your flow between turns.

Surlygringo
26 posts
28 Aug 2021 12:03PM
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Kitsutch,
Do you come from a shortboard, longboard or no surfing background? If you are a shortboarder or have no surfing background I think it is a lot easier to learn to surf top to bottom if you don't try to move your back foot from one rail to the other. You just have to make sure you get your foot all the way back on the kicker and compress a lot more than you think you are in the turns(also backside make sure you square off your shoulders). If you are a longborder then moving your feet may feel more natural. As a prone shortboarder when I sup I don't move my back foot much even on a board with a wide tail. I do compress a lot in the turns because even a 7'6" sup is a lot of board compared to a surfboard. Doesn't mean I don't admire the upright style of guys like Creek. However, I suspect it is way harder to pull that off than it looks and takes a lifetime of surfing longer boards to make it look as easy as he does.

Kisutch
90 posts
28 Aug 2021 11:59PM
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Hey all, thanks for helpful replies.

No surf background, lol watched every tutorial out there I feel like, whats left of paddlewoo podcast/vids, surf mastery podcast, surf simply vids (my fave but limited content), etc. Surf beach break that closes out bad, often I get one bottom turn and bail. Have been on a mission to get a proper bottom turn that gives me acceleration. I wrote in earlier posts that on bigger/steeper waves, it's been a game changer for me to get back foot toes on the rail (frontside). If I don't do that I fall on to my bracing paddle when I lean harder into turn. Do you think on a wide'ish tail board (8x29.5 JL Worldwide for my 80'ish kg) I should be able to do this turn without toes on rail? I've tried with foot centered on tailpad, but I felt like I did sort of a pivot skid around -- maybe it would work if I did this with more weight on front foot, something I'm working on.

I've gotten a much better feel for extension/compression by learning to pump this summer. But two questions if y'all can help me -- first, where is back foot when pumping upper half of wave down the line (my new favorite thing to do)? And when you are extending out of a bottom turn - do you push off slowly and evenly throughout arc, or more like one hard press at bottom?

Thanks a bunch for helpful info so far.

slsurf
65 posts
29 Aug 2021 2:10AM
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Well this might be a contrary opinion but I think you should move your foot rail to rail on every turn if you can until it becomes habit. I'm still trying to do it consistently. How far back you are on the board depends, I try to get my front foot back by the handle centered on board then the back foot moves to keep board trimmed for the situation, further forward for speed further back for steeper sections and more vertical surfing. If you already have your foot on rail for bottom turn you are half way there. It also depends on how tight you want to turn, an 8ft sup isn't going to turn very tight with the full rail in the water, so if you want to turn tighter you must have some pivot involved, that doesn't mean you aren't still banking the board.

Tardy
4104 posts
29 Aug 2021 5:34AM
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The question of where do you put your foot is depending on what board you are riding ,

I surf a few different boards ..11.4 nalu ,even my 14 ,in smaller waves
but mostly i ride a 8,7 placid, 8'8 flow ,9.1 acid ,i surf them all different and it has come natural to me to change
stances and foot position ,the 14 and 11,4 I do lots of walking up and down the board and do stand on the outside rail to turn ,
they are big boards and getting weight in the right position is a must to turn them and gather speed ..if you where to stand at the back only you would sink the tall and go nowhere ,so walking up for gathering speed ...walk down the back for turning and stopping nose dives ,
short boards ,start from the middle and work your way back ,and most times you stay there ,unless wanting more speed for racing waves ,
The 9,1 is the faster board and i tend to ride it further forward ,as it also can stall unless being in the pocket ,
the shorter board 8,7-8,8 ..i go straight to the tail and stay there pretty much ,every board will be different ,where to find the sweet spot to put your feet ..so you go searching with your feet ..to start ..when you find it ,you remember and go back to there each time ..
we are always shifting weight from one foot to the next ..i have found most of my weight is on the front until the turning starts ,but the back foot is the steering foot ..and the bending of the knees .It is hard to explain ..it really is just practice ..i learnt SUP surfing on a 10 foot 33 wide board ...until i found it too hard to turn ..then went to a 9,6 ,then just kept going smaller .Enjoy your learning ..good time ahead .it sure is fun .
heres a picture of my early days ,it was 8,8 long X 32 ''140 litres wide board .and i noticed in a lot of photos my front foot seemed to be more towards the turning rail ..




this one on the 9,1 gathering speed ,rear foot further forward .





8,8 flow on the tail is where you need to be on this one ,

colas
4345 posts
29 Aug 2021 12:07PM
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Tardy said..
It is hard to explain ..it really is just practice


Note that skateboarding can help, especially the "surf" skates, with a loose front truck.

See the vids of "Kale Brock" for instance.

Surlygringo
26 posts
29 Aug 2021 1:17PM
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Kisutch,
I do think you should be able to bottom turn the JL with your back foot centered on the board. If you are having problems sliding out front side when your foot is centered it could be that you are leaning over with your upper body rather than driving the board around a pivot point(your paddle on a sup) by pushing through your legs especially the back one.

I get that there are a lot of people that have found a system that works for them of moving their back foot from rail to rail. I am not saying that is wrong, it's surfing after all, not a math problem. I just think it is a harder way to surf as it puts you in a difficult position to pull off your next turn. In a steep closeout beach break it really is going to be easier to manage a quick hit off the top if you don't have to somehow as you are traveling up the face unweight your back foot and move it to the opposite rail to weight it again for the top turn. Moving your foot and your center of mass that far takes extra time that you may not have. I am not saying that it can't be done, just that it isn't the easiest way to do a quick two turn combo in a closeout.

I also did not mean to imply that you never move your feet for different manouvers. In general for speed you move them a little forward, to get more vertical you move them back. So for that high line pump that is your new favorite thing you might step your back foot more forward, but then when you want to sweep it into a tight cutback you would drop your foot back so you can pressure your board into a tighter turn. The whole time, however, your foot will be on or at least very close to the centerline.

You mention that you watch a lot of videos, so I looked for some good examples of what I am trying to explain. You could just watch any footage of a WSL surfer In somewhat normal surf and watch how their feet are pretty much always on the centerline and they generate their turns by driving really dynamically through their legs. In the sup world Dave Boehne the Infinity guy is a good example of the same thing. Watch him surf the Blurr V2. He puts his back foot on the kicker and surfs through multiple turns without moving it at all. What he does do is compress and release. For kicks you should watch some of the old video of him on the Phoenix which had a tail about as wide as your front door. Even on that board you can watch him head into bottom turns with his rear foot dead center. In the video I watched he wasn't riding a steep beach break and sometimes in a turn his feet were just a little bit staggered, however, his rear foot was nowhere near the rail and seriously "wide as a door."

Whether you have any luck keeping your feet on the centerline or decide my advice is crazy, good luck on your mission to make the best of your waves. One turn and a bail is surfing in my book.

colas
4345 posts
29 Aug 2021 3:15PM
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Surlygringo said..
You mention that you watch a lot of videos, so I looked for some good examples of what I am trying to explain.


I found this one by Jackson Close interesting: although on a 10' board, you can see that he moves his rear foot back and forth (necessary on a longboard SUP, and much more important than moving your rear foot laterally), but he keeps it quite centered: the leg/heel is on the stringer. But he leans into the turn, and you can see it let the time for the board to roll into the turn.


Kisutch
90 posts
29 Aug 2021 11:29PM
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Thanks everyone for more great stuff! Appreciate all this helpful info and it's making me really excited for my next session.

I'm psyched to put a GoPro on my nose to get a better understanding of my footwork and where things are on the turns that work/don't. Maybe see if my friends will switch off filming from shore too, have a telephoto lens collecting dust (I'm prepared to cringe when I see myself!). And I actually ordered a Carver C7 skateboard last week (they're hard to find right now), I spend a lot of time chasing my 3/5 y olds on their bikes so now I can do it while practicing turns.


It's tough for me to figure out where people's feet are in vids -

Love these bottom turns from Caio Vaz, think foot is is in middle of tail



It kind of looks like Boehne's back foot is moving to rail on older board here, but can't tell


or this Paddlewoo vid on Popdart - I think EA mentions he puts foot on rail for harder bottom turns

Surlygringo
26 posts
30 Aug 2021 12:23AM
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That's the video I watched of Boehne on the Phoenix. His back foot is dead center on most of his turns, occasionally he staggers it an inch or two but it is still 6 inches away from the rail. And again, that board has an extremely wide tail. Take a look at him riding in the Blurr V2 video. There are some drone shots where it is very easy to see his back foot, plus the Blurr is much more like what you are riding. Congrats on the skateboard, they are really fun I always keep one in my car.

slsurf
65 posts
30 Aug 2021 1:42AM
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Its funny how two people can see something completely different on same video, to me Daves foot is clearly moving rail to rail sometimes dramatically depending on the turn. Yes it doesn't have to be hanging over the rail but back foot shouldn't be centered for average punter maybe for a pro when they are all the way back in good waves on a 24 inch board they can just leave it planted in the center like a shortboard surfer. My main takeaway is keep moving your back foot, don't plant it.

Surlygringo
26 posts
30 Aug 2021 2:28AM
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Sisurf, we certainly do disagree on what Boehne is doing with his back foot. Perhaps he is moving it more side to side than I think when he is surfing that Simsup style board. I would still encourage Kisutch to take a look at Dave riding in the Blurr V2 as the V2 is similar to the Jl kisurch is riding(some width in the center, 29.5" or 30" in the 8'2" but with a narrower tail and 110-115ltrs.) I understand that you and others have a successful surfing technique utilizing a lot of side to side movement of the back foot. I am not trying to suggest your technique is wrong, merely that it may be a little harder biomechanicaly than keeping your back foot centered and using more compression and release.
I am only throwing the centered foot thing out there because I have always found it easier. Maybe it's just the size 12 feet??

Kisutch
90 posts
30 Aug 2021 3:22AM
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I did some living room training a couple weeks back that was actually super helpful for memorizing how far back the pad or fins are, though I felt like a giant dork.


colas
4345 posts
30 Aug 2021 3:43AM
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Kisutch said..
I did some living room training a couple weeks back that was actually super helpful for memorizing how far back the pad or fins are, though I felt like a giant dork.


Ah ah, same here... but I wait for the wife to be away :-)

Surlygringo
26 posts
30 Aug 2021 4:33AM
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Wait a minute, you mean you guys don't have a board that permanently sits in your living room on a cushion or balance disc? You know, right next to the indo board? :)

slsurf
65 posts
30 Aug 2021 5:39AM
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size 12 feet, say no more, I'm an 8... Hopefully I'll see some surf one of these days so I can ride something other than my keyboard

damandan
3 posts
1 Sep 2021 9:16AM
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Watching that video I see a lot of back foot movement in his turns. He appears to be putting his foot slightly towards the rail he's going to make his turn on. I personally always move my foot to the rail I'm going to turn on, even 1-2" off the center of the board can make a significant difference in your turns. Also keeping you front foot centered is important, only want to move your rear foot. When I initiate a hard turn I spread my stance out put my rear foot back to the kick pad (4-6") and favor the rail I'm turning on (1-2" off center).

Jradedmondo
NSW, 628 posts
2 Sep 2021 8:33PM
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Surfing a sup definitely requires you to move your feet, it is completely different to surfing a short board where you can almost plant your feet and go,
you need to move yourself forward and back on the board, to trim, and then if you hit dead spots, you will move back and forth less if the waves have some power,
where as if you are turning you may need to move your back foot towards the rail, so if you are pumping down the line you would probably have your foot in the middle of the tailpad or depending on the design of your board slightly to the inside rail, so you will need to shift your foot across the board

so its not just when your turning, its when your on the wave as a whole, you will need to be moving your feet and using our paddle, whether it is back and forth along the board or across the board


Jarryd

Souwester
WA, 1206 posts
3 Sep 2021 12:13AM
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Footwork is part of it all coming together, if you lean a lot without the feet on right part of board it won't work well, if you use your foot and don't lean at the right time it won't work well. To get the pressure on the right spot at the right time with your feet at the right spot all takes a bit of time and practice until it comes together and 'feels' natural in the right part of the wave.

For me it comes and goes with the amount I am getting to surf, if I am surfing a lot it comes together, if not very often it is harder - worse ways to spend your time!

I just love the Jackson Close clips, watch them over and over, he just nails the combination of all the elements needed on a 10'er or an 8'er, so good to watch, Dogman's early clips of Bells show what you can do with a full throttle attack - awesome stuff.

Kisutch
90 posts
7 Sep 2021 4:14AM
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Thanks for all the feedback. Had perfect day to experiment more with back foot position, head high waves and no one out, but I got injured again, took minor fall and did something to neck. So bummed! Gonna film my friends while I'm out and try to get them into the video feedback thing, think it will help a lot.



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"Where's your back foot on different maneuvers?" started by Kisutch