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Foil Front Wing Sizes - Windfoiling vs Wingfoiling

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Created by eluviis 2 months ago, 11 Jun 2022
eluviis
60 posts
11 Jun 2022 12:19AM
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I'm wondering how the wing sizes for foil compare between wind and wing foiling in the same conditions. It appears that beginners winging are using anywhere from 1500cm2 to 2200cm2 front wings for light wind, specially if they are heavier riders. Experienced riders seem to be between 1100cm2 to 1600cm2, for winging in light wing. Give or take., How does this compare to wind foiling? And what if the wind picks up above 15knots?

thedoor
1658 posts
11 Jun 2022 1:04AM
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eluviis said..
I'm wondering how the wing sizes for foil compare between wind and wing foiling in the same conditions. It appears that beginners winging are using anywhere from 1500cm2 to 2200cm2 front wings for light wind, specially if they are heavier riders. Experienced riders seem to be between 1100cm2 to 1600cm2, for winging in light wing. Give or take., How does this compare to wind foiling? And what if the wind picks up above 15knots?

Wing area is not the best comparison as aspect ratio, angle of attack etc have a big impact on foil lift.

However, I feel I get more out the same size wing on windfoil versus wingding.

utcminusfour
443 posts
11 Jun 2022 3:07AM
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For the most part winging uses bigger foils.

eluviis
60 posts
11 Jun 2022 3:42AM
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thedoor said..

eluviis said..
I'm wondering how the wing sizes for foil compare between wind and wing foiling in the same conditions. It appears that beginners winging are using anywhere from 1500cm2 to 2200cm2 front wings for light wind, specially if they are heavier riders. Experienced riders seem to be between 1100cm2 to 1600cm2, for winging in light wing. Give or take., How does this compare to wind foiling? And what if the wind picks up above 15knots?


Wing area is not the best comparison as aspect ratio, angle of attack etc have a big impact on foil lift.

However, I feel I get more out the same size wing on windfoil versus wingding.


Someone told me that the sail is way more efficient that the wing. I think that's likely why the winging guys use bigger front wings.

I'm just getting into foiling and I have an actual winging setup. But I'm aware the front wing is too big for wind-foiling (1850cm2) and the fuselage is likely too short (60cm). So I'm planning ahead to get parts for wind-foiling.

CoreAS
707 posts
11 Jun 2022 3:47AM
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Correct the sail is much more efficient!

winging beginners generally use bigger front wings (lower aspect) because of the amount of pumping and the board speed is slower than wind foiling to get going.

Wind foiling you can plane the board longer before inducing lift and when you are experienced you generally use a smaller front wing for better top end speed and control.

Paducah
1919 posts
11 Jun 2022 3:50AM
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eluviis said..


Someone told me that the sail is way more efficient that the wing. I think that's likely why the winging guys use bigger front wings.

I'm just getting into foiling and I have an actual winging setup. But I'm aware the front wing is too big for wind-foiling (1850cm2) and the fuselage is likely too short (60cm). So I'm planning ahead to get parts for wind-foiling.


Front wing will be fine for starting out. The fuselage is much too short - it likely won't balance and will make learning very challenging. What brand and size mast do you presently have?

utcminusfour
443 posts
11 Jun 2022 4:04AM
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Paducah said..

eluviis said..


Someone told me that the sail is way more efficient that the wing. I think that's likely why the winging guys use bigger front wings.

I'm just getting into foiling and I have an actual winging setup. But I'm aware the front wing is too big for wind-foiling (1850cm2) and the fuselage is likely too short (60cm). So I'm planning ahead to get parts for wind-foiling.



Front wing will be fine for starting out. The fuselage is much too short - it likely won't balance and will make learning very challenging. What brand and size mast do you presently have?


+1
As you advance you may want smaller for speed. If Windfoil wave riding with no sail power turns out to be your thng you may want one bigger.

eluviis
60 posts
11 Jun 2022 5:21AM
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Paducah said..

eluviis said..


Someone told me that the sail is way more efficient that the wing. I think that's likely why the winging guys use bigger front wings.

I'm just getting into foiling and I have an actual winging setup. But I'm aware the front wing is too big for wind-foiling (1850cm2) and the fuselage is likely too short (60cm). So I'm planning ahead to get parts for wind-foiling.



Front wing will be fine for starting out. The fuselage is much too short - it likely won't balance and will make learning very challenging. What brand and size mast do you presently have?


That's the thing, I ordered an Armstrong kit with a (81cm) 32" mast and 1850cm2 front wing strictly for winging. The plan was to add a second wing, the 1550 v2, for average days and leave the 1850 for learning or really light days (common here).I didn't think it would be a problem for windsurfing later on, except I then discovered that Armstrong's longest production fuse is 70cm. I spoke to them and they told me they did produce a short run of 80cm fuselages but have since all sold out. They really need to produce an 80cm and a 90cm for wind-foiling guys.

Grantmac
1488 posts
11 Jun 2022 9:18AM
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Intermediate wingers run similar sized foils to fast freeride windfoilers, medium to high aspect 900-1300cm2 is common for 75-95kg wingers. Wingers can turn them tighter and ride them slower while being lower in top speed.
Meter to meter wings have more low end but less speed.

Sandman1221
2078 posts
11 Jun 2022 11:22AM
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All want to add is a 1080 cm2 wing is the biggest I would want for windfoiling (84 kg), and I only use it up to 11-12 knots max, and then switch over to a 770 cm2 wing. I know a light weight winger who teaches winging, they said a 894 cm2 wing was as big as they liked to use, and said the next step up in wing size felt like they were dragging a plastic bag in the water.

WhiteofHeart
751 posts
11 Jun 2022 1:06PM
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Wingfoil foils start getting smaller though. My setup has a 1280cm2 and 940cm2. Will be expanded with 740cm2 or 790cm2 in the future.

Those 1500+ foils are only for beginners, the average foil size for an experienced rider in all conditions will be around 1000.

6u1d0
67 posts
11 Jun 2022 2:04PM
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I am a winG beginer and I use a 1300. And it is a wing I use for winDfoil for carving and begining foilStyling. The experienced wingers using the same foil as me (Aeromod) are on the wings I use for windfoiling (800 and 1000). The more advanced are using slalom front wings (sub 800).

I have heard that the top 20 at defi winG at Gruissan mostly used kitefoil front wings.

Two days ago windFoil top gun friend of mine used a sub 400 (some phantom stuff I believe, and it looked loke my stab wing) chasing top gps while I was winDfoiling trying to turn round 360 with my 1300. He was on a windfoil specific 7m2 while I used a low aspec 4.2 wave sail.
IMHO, the size of the front wing is comparable the the volume of the board both for wind and wing. Sometime it is good to go back on a floaty because you wan't to consolidate sail technique to learn a trick, or just because you want to cruise the bay. Then when you want to smoke your top gps, you take the smallest kit you can handle.

boardsurfr
WA, 1692 posts
11 Jun 2022 10:46PM
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It's mostly a skill and experience thing, especially for winging. Windfoilers can learn on a sub-1000 front wing with a race/freerace setup, since they can get the board up to the required takeoff speed of more than 10 knots. It may require some pumping, but the pumping technique is pretty much the same as for windsurfing.

The pumping technique for winging is very different. Advanced wingers who use 1000 or smaller front wings are typically also on very small boards (volume below body weight). To get on the foil, they need not only good wing pumping technique, but also very well coordinated and aggressive board pumping. That skill takes some time to develop, with additional learning required when switching to smaller front wings.

For slalom windfoiling, the front wing sizes have gone down a lot over the last couple of years, with 400 square cm wings (and smaller) becoming common now. That's possible since the windfoil boards can plane, and going reaching a foil takeoff speed in the mid or even high teens is not a problem. For winging, going to wing sizes this small seems almost impossible with current gear. But if wing racing becomes more popular (we'll see the first wing race in our area next month), this may change.

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eluviis said..
I'm just getting into foiling and I have an actual winging setup. But I'm aware the front wing is too big for wind-foiling (1850cm2) and the fuselage is likely too short (60cm). So I'm planning ahead to get parts for wind-foiling.


The front wing is definitely not too big to learn windfoiling, unless you are very light weight (<60 kg). The 60 cm fuselage could theoretically be used for windfoiling, too. It is a lot shorter than typical fuselages, so it will make learning harder, but I know a windfoiler who used a 60 cm fuse and barely noticed a difference. She was quite good at that point already, though, and has since switched completely to winging. Since you already know how to wing, you may have a chance of learning to windfoil with the 60 cm fuse (or better, the 70 cm), if you also can windsurf already.

But the question is why you want to windfoil. If you're looking for more speed, then Armstrong is a dead end. You'll want at least a 95 cm fuselage. If you just want something different from winging, and perhaps play do freestyle or play with waves, then the 70 cm fuselage may work.

6u1d0
67 posts
11 Jun 2022 11:28PM
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boardsurfr said..
why you want to windfoil


Why does anyone need a reason to do something they want ?

Foiling (winG or winD) is either utterly stupid or absolute genius. In both case, one should try out.

Sandman1221
2078 posts
12 Jun 2022 2:02AM
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The other questions to keep in mind are, where do you plan on doing it (lake, river, bay, gulf, ocean) and in what conditions (flat, swell, waves).

eluviis
60 posts
12 Jun 2022 8:33AM
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boardsurfr said..
It's mostly a skill and experience thing, especially for winging. Windfoilers can learn on a sub-1000 front wing with a race/freerace setup, since they can get the board up to the required takeoff speed of more than 10 knots. It may require some pumping, but the pumping technique is pretty much the same as for windsurfing.

The pumping technique for winging is very different. Advanced wingers who use 1000 or smaller front wings are typically also on very small boards (volume below body weight). To get on the foil, they need not only good wing pumping technique, but also very well coordinated and aggressive board pumping. That skill takes some time to develop, with additional learning required when switching to smaller front wings.

For slalom windfoiling, the front wing sizes have gone down a lot over the last couple of years, with 400 square cm wings (and smaller) becoming common now. That's possible since the windfoil boards can plane, and going reaching a foil takeoff speed in the mid or even high teens is not a problem. For winging, going to wing sizes this small seems almost impossible with current gear. But if wing racing becomes more popular (we'll see the first wing race in our area next month), this may change.

eluviis said..
I'm just getting into foiling and I have an actual winging setup. But I'm aware the front wing is too big for wind-foiling (1850cm2) and the fuselage is likely too short (60cm). So I'm planning ahead to get parts for wind-foiling.



The front wing is definitely not too big to learn windfoiling, unless you are very light weight (
But the question is why you want to windfoil. If you're looking for more speed, then Armstrong is a dead end. You'll want at least a 95 cm fuselage. If you just want something different from winging, and perhaps play do freestyle or play with waves, then the 70 cm fuselage may work.


Thanks for this. I actually don't know how to wing-foil yet. I have been windsurfing for ages and at one point was a sponsored kiteboarder. I believe I may have made of mistake going with the large 1850 front wing and not having simply started on the 1550V2. I'm learning a lot about this new equipment, and like any newbie, I've already made a few mistakes that have cost me money and time, but I also feel I've done OK given the circumstances. I went with Armstrong because I thought they were the best... and in a way, the gear is amazing. But... had I gone Axis for example, I would have a bit more control over parts for both disciplines.And to answer the question as to why I want to wind-foil if I'm winging... I actually don't know. I know I love windsurfing and gave it up a long time ago for kiteboarding and while that part of my life was great, I don't want to just give it up again even if I'm winging. But I guess I'll find out soon. The hope is to do both.

eluviis
60 posts
12 Jun 2022 8:38AM
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Sandman1221 said..
The other questions to keep in mind are, where do you plan on doing it (lake, river, bay, gulf, ocean) and in what conditions (flat, swell, waves).


Right now I'm learning on a calm small bay. But I do have access to the ocean... generally light 10-15 winds here in San Diego. But I can travel a bit for better wind. I do have a lot of experience wave sailing in high wind and kiting in waves. In fact, the largest I'll go out (or used) on a windsurf board was about double overhead.. More comfortable around 8-10 feet at most. However, in Maui, kiting was a lot more confidence inducing because I can easily move out of the impact zone with a kite. (So long as I don't dump the kite of course). Because of this, I would often go out in 15-20 foot days at Kanaha and outer kitebeach. I did kite Hookipa (during a contest) and it was about 15 feet. Hookipa at 15ft hits A LOT harder than Kanaha or Kitebeach at 20.But anyway, as you can tell, I'm brand new to foils.

eluviis
60 posts
12 Jun 2022 10:15AM
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Having said all the above. Considering that an extra Armstrong fuse is about $500 and a smaller wing is $600... That's the price of a complete new alloy foil. THAT SAID, I could still use the smaller wing for winging, so really the only extra expense is the longer fuse.

thedoor
1658 posts
12 Jun 2022 11:29AM
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eluviis said..

Sandman1221 said..
The other questions to keep in mind are, where do you plan on doing it (lake, river, bay, gulf, ocean) and in what conditions (flat, swell, waves).



Right now I'm learning on a calm small bay. But I do have access to the ocean... generally light 10-15 winds here in San Diego. But I can travel a bit for better wind. I do have a lot of experience wave sailing in high wind and kiting in waves. In fact, the largest I'll go out (or used) on a windsurf board was about double overhead.. More comfortable around 8-10 feet at most. However, in Maui, kiting was a lot more confidence inducing because I can easily move out of the impact zone with a kite. (So long as I don't dump the kite of course). Because of this, I would often go out in 15-20 foot days at Kanaha and outer kitebeach. I did kite Hookipa (during a contest) and it was about 15 feet. Hookipa at 15ft hits A LOT harder than Kanaha or Kitebeach at 20.But anyway, as you can tell, I'm brand new to foils.


Respect! I gave up windsurfing in the early 2000s to kite and i don't want to do it again either.

Sandman1221
2078 posts
12 Jun 2022 8:55PM
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eluviis said..
Having said all the above. Considering that an extra Armstrong fuse is about $500 and a smaller wing is $600... That's the price of a complete new alloy foil. THAT SAID, I could still use the smaller wing for winging, so really the only extra expense is the longer fuse.





The thing to keep in mind is that a wing foil is built to handle the stresses of winging, and those stresses are different than windfoiling. If I wanted to wing and windfoil with the same foil, I would start with a windfoil because it is built to handle the stress from the sail/mast base and the typically larger and heavier board.

Same goes for a kitefoil versus a windfoil.

Over the last year or two I saw a few wingers at my spot, maybe 7 total (with 1-2 wingers at the same time) saw some of them a couple of times, but do not see any of them anymore.

segler
WA, 1251 posts
12 Jun 2022 11:23PM
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Yesterday at Roosevelt (Columbia R), it was all foilers in light conditions (12-20 mph). I was the only one with a sail (7.0 Flyer), there was one kiter (4 m kite, yes, you read that right), and 7 wingers (4.5-5.5). That's the general pattern in the Gorge now. After I stopped for the day, two more sails showed up and windfoiled. Winging is huge and is only getting bigger. One winger pulled up in a Tesla.

BullroarerTook
94 posts
13 Jun 2022 12:04AM
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thedoor said..

eluviis said..


Sandman1221 said..
The other questions to keep in mind are, where do you plan on doing it (lake, river, bay, gulf, ocean) and in what conditions (flat, swell, waves).




Right now I'm learning on a calm small bay. But I do have access to the ocean... generally light 10-15 winds here in San Diego. But I can travel a bit for better wind. I do have a lot of experience wave sailing in high wind and kiting in waves. In fact, the largest I'll go out (or used) on a windsurf board was about double overhead.. More comfortable around 8-10 feet at most. However, in Maui, kiting was a lot more confidence inducing because I can easily move out of the impact zone with a kite. (So long as I don't dump the kite of course). Because of this, I would often go out in 15-20 foot days at Kanaha and outer kitebeach. I did kite Hookipa (during a contest) and it was about 15 feet. Hookipa at 15ft hits A LOT harder than Kanaha or Kitebeach at 20.But anyway, as you can tell, I'm brand new to foils.



Respect! I gave up windsurfing in the early 2000s to kite and i don't want to do it again either.


Wait. what? Which don't you want to do again?

eluviis
60 posts
13 Jun 2022 1:07AM
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BullroarerTook said..

thedoor said..


eluviis said..



Sandman1221 said..
The other questions to keep in mind are, where do you plan on doing it (lake, river, bay, gulf, ocean) and in what conditions (flat, swell, waves).





Right now I'm learning on a calm small bay. But I do have access to the ocean... generally light 10-15 winds here in San Diego. But I can travel a bit for better wind. I do have a lot of experience wave sailing in high wind and kiting in waves. In fact, the largest I'll go out (or used) on a windsurf board was about double overhead.. More comfortable around 8-10 feet at most. However, in Maui, kiting was a lot more confidence inducing because I can easily move out of the impact zone with a kite. (So long as I don't dump the kite of course). Because of this, I would often go out in 15-20 foot days at Kanaha and outer kitebeach. I did kite Hookipa (during a contest) and it was about 15 feet. Hookipa at 15ft hits A LOT harder than Kanaha or Kitebeach at 20.But anyway, as you can tell, I'm brand new to foils.




Respect! I gave up windsurfing in the early 2000s to kite and i don't want to do it again either.



Wait. what? Which don't you want to do again?


Ahh ^^ I re-read my post. Sorry for the confusion. I see that it wasn't clear. What I meant was that when I started kiting in 2000, I was doing both for a while. But then in 2002 when I moved to Maui I sold all of my windsurfing gear and didn't windsurf again until 2010.What I'm trying to say is that now I'm starting wing-foiling... but I want to make sure still continue to windsurf / windsurf-foil.I say I'm not that interested in kiting anymore... but I might still do it here and there. I just haven't in about 10 years. I'm not as interested unless it's for wave-riding. Reason being, I'm never going to be be as good as I used to... comparing me in my 20s vs me in my 40s. Plus, I don't live on Maui anymore... so conditions play a big part. But winging and windsurfing foiling, I still have a lot I can learn.

eluviis
60 posts
13 Jun 2022 1:09AM
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segler said..
Yesterday at Roosevelt (Columbia R), it was all foilers in light conditions (12-20 mph). I was the only one with a sail (7.0 Flyer), there was one kiter (4 m kite, yes, you read that right), and 7 wingers (4.5-5.5). That's the general pattern in the Gorge now. After I stopped for the day, two more sails showed up and windfoiled. Winging is huge and is only getting bigger. One winger pulled up in a Tesla.


There are definitely benefits to winging... specially if you own a Tesla. Haha. I'm a truck guy and expect to always have one. That said, the last windsurf-foil board I ordered (not even here yet) I made sure it would fit IN my truck bed with the lid closed. Only problem is, the biggest mast that I stow back there with the lid closed is a 400cm.

eluviis
60 posts
13 Jun 2022 1:11AM
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thedoor said..

eluviis said..


Sandman1221 said..
The other questions to keep in mind are, where do you plan on doing it (lake, river, bay, gulf, ocean) and in what conditions (flat, swell, waves).




Right now I'm learning on a calm small bay. But I do have access to the ocean... generally light 10-15 winds here in San Diego. But I can travel a bit for better wind. I do have a lot of experience wave sailing in high wind and kiting in waves. In fact, the largest I'll go out (or used) on a windsurf board was about double overhead.. More comfortable around 8-10 feet at most. However, in Maui, kiting was a lot more confidence inducing because I can easily move out of the impact zone with a kite. (So long as I don't dump the kite of course). Because of this, I would often go out in 15-20 foot days at Kanaha and outer kitebeach. I did kite Hookipa (during a contest) and it was about 15 feet. Hookipa at 15ft hits A LOT harder than Kanaha or Kitebeach at 20.But anyway, as you can tell, I'm brand new to foils.



Respect! I gave up windsurfing in the early 2000s to kite and i don't want to do it again either.


Thanks. My brother still kites all the time. But yeah, I'd be interested in unhooked kiting in waves still.. But I'm not going to be be trying mobes and kiteloop handlepasses in my 40s... So it has kinda lost its luster.

Grantmac
1488 posts
13 Jun 2022 2:02AM
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If you are really dedicated to trying both foiling disciplines then you picked the wrong foil unfortunately. The Armstrong setup just doesn't work for windfoiling.

If I was picking one manufacturer for both it would be Axis. Second might be SAB but as a distant second.

thedoor
1658 posts
13 Jun 2022 2:45AM
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BullroarerTook said..

thedoor said..


eluviis said..



Sandman1221 said..
The other questions to keep in mind are, where do you plan on doing it (lake, river, bay, gulf, ocean) and in what conditions (flat, swell, waves).





Right now I'm learning on a calm small bay. But I do have access to the ocean... generally light 10-15 winds here in San Diego. But I can travel a bit for better wind. I do have a lot of experience wave sailing in high wind and kiting in waves. In fact, the largest I'll go out (or used) on a windsurf board was about double overhead.. More comfortable around 8-10 feet at most. However, in Maui, kiting was a lot more confidence inducing because I can easily move out of the impact zone with a kite. (So long as I don't dump the kite of course). Because of this, I would often go out in 15-20 foot days at Kanaha and outer kitebeach. I did kite Hookipa (during a contest) and it was about 15 feet. Hookipa at 15ft hits A LOT harder than Kanaha or Kitebeach at 20.But anyway, as you can tell, I'm brand new to foils.




Respect! I gave up windsurfing in the early 2000s to kite and i don't want to do it again either.



Wait. what? Which don't you want to do again?


give up

eluviis
60 posts
13 Jun 2022 6:35AM
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Grantmac said..
If you are really dedicated to trying both foiling disciplines then you picked the wrong foil unfortunately. The Armstrong setup just doesn't work for windfoiling.

If I was picking one manufacturer for both it would be Axis. Second might be SAB but as a distant second.


I kinda figured that. A bit late now since I've already used the Armstrong once. I'm not going to try and return it.

This can go two ways. I try a smaller wing that I would use for winging anyway, and if I like, I source a longer fuse... OR... I end up buying an axis foil setup and use that for wind-foiing. Yeah, it's a lot of money to have two... but you live and you learn, right?

A the end of the day, I can't see what a smaller high-aspect Armstrong front wing with a longer fuse would not work for wind-foiling. Armstrong obviously makes top of the line stuff, but they are focused on wing and wave... not windsurfing. But come on? It can't be THAT much different, can it?

KDog
202 posts
13 Jun 2022 7:18AM
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You might have to go the custom fuselage route look up Jim Stringfellow on Facebook. The hard part might be figuring out the distance from leading edge of mast to the front wing.As mentioned before most of the custom stuff is focused on winging also cost might come into play.

Sandman1221
2078 posts
13 Jun 2022 7:30AM
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eluviis said..

Grantmac said..
If you are really dedicated to trying both foiling disciplines then you picked the wrong foil unfortunately. The Armstrong setup just doesn't work for windfoiling.

If I was picking one manufacturer for both it would be Axis. Second might be SAB but as a distant second.



I kinda figured that. A bit late now since I've already used the Armstrong once. I'm not going to try and return it.

This can go two ways. I try a smaller wing that I would use for winging anyway, and if I like, I source a longer fuse... OR... I end up buying an axis foil setup and use that for wind-foiing. Yeah, it's a lot of money to have two... but you live and you learn, right?

A the end of the day, I can't see what a smaller high-aspect Armstrong front wing with a longer fuse would not work for wind-foiling. Armstrong obviously makes top of the line stuff, but they are focused on wing and wave... not windsurfing. But come on? It can't be THAT much different, can it?


Yes it is that much different, including geometry, design, and construction.

Sandman1221
2078 posts
13 Jun 2022 7:42AM
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Was out today windfoiling, saw a guy who has been trying to learn winging on a foil with what I guess is a swell/wave wing (3000 cm2) and a relatively huge board, he is probably 65 kg, was struggling for the last few months on that equipment, last time I pointed out the main issue (swell setup being used on flattish bay). But today he had a whole new wing kit, Naish foil and SB small wing board, he was going back and forth on the foil easily!

The other thing I noticed, since we were setting up next to each other, is how fast he was to get on the water with the wing kit, big plus.

But a guy watching us both wondered why he was not foiling like me (I was going out into the bay with hard upwind angles) but instead the winger stayed close and parallel to shore with an onshore wind. All the wingers do the same where I am, I explained it being due to the equipment and endurance. The big advantage with a windfoil kit is I got away from the jetskiers, while the winger was dodging them both ways since they tend to either stay close/parallel to shore so crowd the area, or go way out into the bay where they are spread way out. All the noise alone from the jetskiers is obnoxious on a weekend anyway, glad it is easy for me on a windfoil to get out into the bay where it is quiet



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"Foil Front Wing Sizes - Windfoiling vs Wingfoiling" started by eluviis