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Foil wings and sail quiver

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Created by Poimax05 Monday, 29 Jun 2020
Poimax05
10 posts
Monday , 29 Jun 2020 8:50AM
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Hi,

I have a Moses Vento 85 with the 790 wing. I just bought a Naish lift 4.7, and this is a great combo for 10-20 knots of wind. I just had 3 great back to back sessions in those conditions. i am really surprised by the lift 4.7 , I am under the impression that it gets me going with the same wind as my North e-type 5.8 at 10-12 knots ( with pumping )

So I am wondering what should be my next purchase to increase my wind range. I am convinced that dedicated foil sails are worth it

I weigh 175 Lbs
First, for higher wind : I feel I am getting too much pull from the 4.7 sail at around 20 knots. I also feel the leach is acting and that the sail feel less stable. The foil is still manageable , I do not have too much front foot pressure, and I do not breach. I move my back foot forward as needed

So at this point , I am considering getting a Naish lift 3.7 or otherwise buy a Moses 720 mm Wing ( one or the other ideally , not both ). The goal is to cover gusts up to 25 knots comfortably. I am wondering if just switching the foil wing would be enough ? The 720 is a much smaller wing and can get up to 25 knots speed from what I read ( vs 20 knot for the 790). But would that change anything about the the sail pull ? I guess not , but I can be wrong.

Just for my interpretation , assuming that I would have both smaller sail and wing, when would you recommend to switch to the 720 wing? Should I use it with the 3.7 only , or also with the 4.7 ?
Now for the lighter wind range , I would need one larger sail optimal for 8-15 knots. I am wondering if all foil sails have similar grunt and pump ability as the Naish lift sails ?

I think that the Naish 6.4 is too large for my needs. And the 5.7 requires a 400cm mast which I do not have. So I am leaning toward a flyer 6.0 or a F-type 5.8 ( which would fit on my 439cm north gold). I just want to make sure that they will be the right complement to my 4.7, without overlap.




thanks

Max

thedoor
385 posts
Monday , 29 Jun 2020 9:47AM
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Poimax05 said..
Hi,

I have a Moses Vento 85 with the 790 wing. I just bought a Naish lift 4.7, and this is a great combo for 10-20 knots of wind. I just had 3 great back to back sessions in those conditions. i am really surprised by the lift 4.7 , I am under the impression that it gets me going with the same wind as my North e-type 5.8 at 10-12 knots ( with pumping )

So I am wondering what should be my next purchase to increase my wind range. I am convinced that dedicated foil sails are worth it

I weigh 175 Lbs
First, for higher wind : I feel I am getting too much pull from the 4.7 sail at around 20 knots. I also feel the leach is acting and that the sail feel less stable. The foil is still manageable , I do not have too much front foot pressure, and I do not breach. I move my back foot forward as needed

So at this point , I am considering getting a Naish lift 3.7 or otherwise buy a Moses 720 mm Wing ( one or the other ideally , not both ). The goal is to cover gusts up to 25 knots comfortably. I am wondering if just switching the foil wing would be enough ? The 720 is a much smaller wing and can get up to 25 knots speed from what I read ( vs 20 knot for the 790). But would that change anything about the the sail pull ? I guess not , but I can be wrong.

Just for my interpretation , assuming that I would have both smaller sail and wing, when would you recommend to switch to the 720 wing? Should I use it with the 3.7 only , or also with the 4.7 ?
Now for the lighter wind range , I would need one larger sail optimal for 8-15 knots. I am wondering if all foil sails have similar grunt and pump ability as the Naish lift sails ?

I think that the Naish 6.4 is too large for my needs. And the 5.7 requires a 400cm mast which I do not have. So I am leaning toward a flyer 6.0 or a F-type 5.8 ( which would fit on my 439cm north gold). I just want to make sure that they will be the right complement to my 4.7, without overlap.




thanks

Max



Glad you like the lift. I haven't tried moses stuff but I think the infinity 76 is close to the moses 790. The infinity 65 I think is different than the 720 but is is much smaller than the i76 just like the moses 720 is much smaller than the 790. Both the i65 and moses 720 have faster top speeds which limits the viability of the naish lift (in my opinion).

I have Naish lifts in 3.7, 4.7 and 5.7. I was using these sails exclusively with the i76 even up to 30 mph gusts.However, with my i65 they do not work so well. I think this is because either the i65 is a faster wing so the apparent wind across the sail is greater than the lift can handle, or because I have to increase the amount of sail on the i65 for a given windspeed relative to what I need to make the i76 go. So more recently I started using wave sails (hot sails maui SFME) for the i65, which are similar in some ways to the lift--the SFME handles more wind, have much shorter booms, but lack the low end of the lift.

For me the 3.7 lift has worked on my i76 in very strong wind. I think they work for the i76 but not the i65 because the i76 has a speed limit that prevents the apparent wind increasing much above the lifts tolerance. But since adding the waves sails I mostly go with those when using the i76 (and the 3.7 has not had much use the past few months). I use the 5.7 lift for my XL wing the infinity 99 and I use the 4.7 lift with my i76 (instead of the 4.7 wave sail) if there are big holes or if it looks marginal for the i76). If the moses 790 is similar to the i76 then you could probably make the 3.7 work upto 25 knots, but if the moses 790 has a top speed considerably faster than the i76 it may not work for you. But based on my experience you may want to look into wave or freestyle sails for higher wind.

Re do you need the moses 720? Generally for me, the i76 + 4.2 will handle lulls better than i65 + 4.7so I tend to have much more consistent sessions on the i76. I also prefer the i76 for swell riding. I mostly consider the i65 if it is relatively flat and the wind is strong and consistent. I I am dabbling in jumping which needs the i65

It's a shame you don't have a 400, cause the lift 5.7 would be the perfect compliment. The flyer is a great sail, so I have heard, but quite different than the lift.

PS: I agree that foil sails do work well and that many non-foiling sails do not work so good. But many freeride foilers people are riding freestyle sails or wave sails successfully. I think the trick is to find a regular sail you like for foiling.

PPS: Some popular regular sails with foilers include the goya 3 batten wave sail, the severne freek and I am sure there are many others that work. Perhaps other peeps on this forum can share what they like to use in heavy air.

segler
430 posts
Tuesday , 29 Jun 2020 11:42PM
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In the Columbia Gorge, where the wind is strong and usually gusty, quite a lot foilers use the i76 or 790 and nothing else. Ever. They don't even own a second wing. All they ever change is the sail size. Sails: Flyers, Goyas, Phantoms, Severnes, Ezzys, Northwaves, everything. I still like my 1999-vintage Sailworks XT and 2001-vintage Sailworks Revolution for foiling.

Paducah
983 posts
Tuesday , 30 Jun 2020 12:26AM
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The Lifts are special because they generate a lot of power for their size. The 5.7 seems to be equivalent to a 6.5 or 7.0 more normal sail. Their design seems to favor bigger wings because they aren't a slippery sail so you don't get the acceleration that you get with a foil specific bigger sail (say, Glide 7.0) or even normal freeride/freerace sail.

On the smaller side, as others have mentioned, most of us are just using wave/freestyle sails. They generally work well. The qualities that make a good foil specific sail - not too much twist, shorter boom, lighter weight - really start to merge with the behaviour a lot of smaller sails already have.

I wouldn't get too hung up on it on the smaller size. I do think that foil specific makes more of a difference as you get to 6.5 (for which the Lift 5.7 is a proxy) and above. That said, there are definitely some pretty cool smaller foil-specific sails such as the Flyer, Swart and Glide for example.

Poimax05
10 posts
Tuesday , 30 Jun 2020 7:56AM
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I sail in quite gusty conditons, so I guess I will stick with my 790mm wing and try a 4.2 North wave sail that I already have for stronger wind.

I guess it will probably a good step down from the Lift 4.7, and remains stable up to 25 knots +

The sails comes with North VTS, with indicators for downhaul (min and max). For foiling, I plan to use the min setting; but I am wondering if some go even beyond that min setting ?

For the lighter wind, I understand that my lift 4.7 is possibly as powerful as my 5.8 freeride sail, so there is no point to use that sail.

I have an S-type 7.3, but it does not work well without near max downhaul ; otherwise the top camber comes off. I tried it once, and found it was not really efficient to pump.

So I guess I should give a try my old 6.5 freeride sail...

But from what I read, freestyle and wave sails can work well, but not freeride.. so it does not look promising.

I found is this article, in which they compare the Naish Lift 5.7 with the Flyer 7.0... Which implies that the lift 5.7 has a similar range as the Flyer 7.0 ?
shop.wind-nc.com/blogs/windsurf-sup-foil-buyers-guides/foil-specific-windsurfing-sail-test-sailworks-flyer-and-naish-lift-review

When foiling with a I76 or a Moses 790 (which are large wing topping in speed at app 20 knots) , I am under the impression that the acceleration and pull from a sail like the flyer 7.0 would not be much useful ; the 5.7 sail would probably be enough to reach the wing top speed;

The 7.0 rather looks like a mean to achieve higher speed with a smaller wing (with less drag) but also much less stable than the I76 / 790 (justifying the need for cambers, etc.)

Naish came in with a Lift Freeride for 2020, which I think is going is trying to do what the flyer is doing (without camber )?

Bottom line, I think a Naish 5.7 is really what I need for my freeride objective ; but really wondering if the 6.4 could be an option. I will ask Naish tech support, let's see.

azymuth
WA, 1066 posts
Tuesday , 30 Jun 2020 8:29AM
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thedoor said..I also prefer the i76 for swell riding. I mostly consider the i65 if it is relatively flat and the wind is strong and consistent. PPS: Some popular regular sails with foilers include the goya 3 batten wave sail, the severne freek and I am sure there are many others that work. Perhaps other peeps on this forum can share what they like to use in heavy air.



Maybe keep trying the Infinity 65 for swell riding in stronger winds - 7 of us here are stoked with it.
The 76 is an awesome all-round wing but we find in 18+ and swells the 65 carves harder and is faster;
24 knots speed in 25 knot W winter winds and big chop - fast enough for me

Strong wind sails;
20 knots - Simmer Tricera 3 batten 4.5m
25 - Simmer Blacktip 4 batten 4.0
30 - Blacktip 3.7
35+ - Tricera 3.4

Slightly prefer the Triceras

utcminusfour
111 posts
Tuesday , 30 Jun 2020 8:14PM
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Poimax05 said..
Hi,

I have a Moses Vento 85 with the 790 wing. I just bought a Naish lift 4.7, and this is a great combo for 10-20 knots of wind. I just had 3 great back to back sessions in those conditions. i am really surprised by the lift 4.7 , I am under the impression that it gets me going with the same wind as my North e-type 5.8 at 10-12 knots ( with pumping )

So I am wondering what should be my next purchase to increase my wind range. I am convinced that dedicated foil sails are worth it

I weigh 175 Lbs
First, for higher wind : I feel I am getting too much pull from the 4.7 sail at around 20 knots. I also feel the leach is acting and that the sail feel less stable. The foil is still manageable , I do not have too much front foot pressure, and I do not breach. I move my back foot forward as needed

So at this point , I am considering getting a Naish lift 3.7 or otherwise buy a Moses 720 mm Wing ( one or the other ideally , not both ). The goal is to cover gusts up to 25 knots comfortably. I am wondering if just switching the foil wing would be enough ? The 720 is a much smaller wing and can get up to 25 knots speed from what I read ( vs 20 knot for the 790). But would that change anything about the the sail pull ? I guess not , but I can be wrong.

Just for my interpretation , assuming that I would have both smaller sail and wing, when would you recommend to switch to the 720 wing? Should I use it with the 3.7 only , or also with the 4.7 ?
Now for the lighter wind range , I would need one larger sail optimal for 8-15 knots. I am wondering if all foil sails have similar grunt and pump ability as the Naish lift sails ?

I think that the Naish 6.4 is too large for my needs. And the 5.7 requires a 400cm mast which I do not have. So I am leaning toward a flyer 6.0 or a F-type 5.8 ( which would fit on my 439cm north gold). I just want to make sure that they will be the right complement to my 4.7, without overlap.




thanks

Max


Max,
I agree with the comments above. I ride the 790 into the low 30 knot range with a 4.0 wave sail. I like that you can fly it slowly to stay in control and above the chop until you find a comfy moment to put the hammer down. I am not a fan of how the industry forces all these mast sizes on us but with that said I have four masts, well I had four. I just broke my 390 (hooked in cannon ball), and I have a 400 and 430 and 460 for a sail range of 4.0-7.0. I am not using the 460/7.0 much anymore.

In a nut shell I would recomend using that 4.7 for a while because you have it and you will see it handles the gusts better than the Naish. For breeze much above 25 you may want something smaller. The Naish design is great for getting going in the light stuff without the need for cambers so the 5.7 or the 6.5 would be a good bet. I have a Flyer 6.0 but my preference is the 5.7 Goya Fringe because it rigs easier and pumps better while working almost as good up range. Do not discount a bigger front wing. My current light air set up is a 1100 front wing and a Goya Frindge 5.7 and it is boosting my 100kg in 8-10 knots! Last night I was out with out a white cap in sight and was feeling like "this should not be happening"!

Heliboy999
70 posts
Wednesday , 1 Jul 2020 4:26AM
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I ride made my 5.7 Lift for light and gusty winds. It gets me up in 10-12mph on a i99 wing and keeps me going up to 20mph wind. Once the wind feels like its a steady 16 mph plus I will mostly go out on my 5.6 wave sail because its faster and I have the wind to pump against. All my sails are Simmer Black tips. They handle the wind gusts well and are light and easy to control.

I tend to use my i99 with the Lift and sometimes the 5.6 Blacktop but if I feel the wind is steady and above 16 mph I change to my i76 and stay with that all the way down to my 4.0m and around 30mph wind.

I rarely use my 6.4 lift because the 5.7 is so good. I don't really see the need to have smaller Lifts in windy conditions because they lack control in higher wind and you don't really need the grunt because you have wind.

Smidgeuk
5 posts
Thursday , 1 Jul 2020 11:19PM
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Heliboy999 said..
I ride made my 5.7 Lift for light and gusty winds. It gets me up in 10-12mph on a i99 wing and keeps me going up to 20mph wind. Once the wind feels like its a steady 16 mph plus I will mostly go out on my 5.6 wave sail because its faster and I have the wind to pump against. All my sails are Simmer Black tips. They handle the wind gusts well and are light and easy to control.

I tend to use my i99 with the Lift and sometimes the 5.6 Blacktop but if I feel the wind is steady and above 16 mph I change to my i76 and stay with that all the way down to my 4.0m and around 30mph wind.

I rarely use my 6.4 lift because the 5.7 is so good. I don't really see the need to have smaller Lifts in windy conditions because they lack control in higher wind and you don't really need the grunt because you have wind.


Can I ask how much you weigh and what board you are using? I also have i76 and i99, usually use the i99 with a 5.7 Blade rigged very full - wondering if a Lift (5.7 or 6.4) would be a good addition for the really light stuff. Thanks

NordRoi
304 posts
Thursday , 2 Jul 2020 8:45PM
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Hi, what do you mean by rigging very full? Min downhaul and min outhaul? I'm a newbie at foiling, 2 days out and really enjoyed it! This is how I rigged my wavesail. Now i've received a tips to max the outhaul, apparently it will bite way more in apparent wind. I receive also a second tips to max out outhaul and downhaul to even more working with the apparent wind unless the wind is very light or big slow foil. Any thoughts on that?

thedoor
385 posts
Friday , 2 Jul 2020 11:12PM
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NordRoi said..
Hi, what do you mean by rigging very full? Min downhaul and min outhaul? I'm a newbie at foiling, 2 days out and really enjoyed it! This is how I rigged my wavesail. Now i've received a tips to max the outhaul, apparently it will bite way more in apparent wind. I receive also a second tips to max out outhaul and downhaul to even more working with the apparent wind unless the wind is very light or big slow foil. Any thoughts on that?


Yeah the advice is confusing probably because a variety of things work depending on your experience level, how you foil (race v freeride) and what sails you are using.

I think the key thing is to try different micro adjustments, during one session, and see how you like it. I use regular downhaul but increase outhaul 1-2 inches to "flatten" out the sail. I don't think I would get the same "flattening" by applying less downhaul. If I switch back to windsurfing I will reduce my outhaul to normal. This is what I am doing now, who knows what I will be doing next year.

Early on, there was talk of under downhauling our sails to keep the leach tighter, but I think most people have scrapped that idea and rig their sails as normal.

PS IMO the naish lift needs an extra 10cm on the boom than the listed numbers because of the angled nature of the boom


Poimax05
10 posts
Friday , 2 Jul 2020 11:25PM
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On my end, started to use an adjustable outhaul on my 4.7 Lift to experiment faster on the outhaul.

I adjust it to manufacturer recommentation for easy pumping and lifting, and then as soon as I am up, I increase the outhaul 1-2 cm , up to 5-6 cm more when the gusts are strong. And I think going even further next time (up to +10 cm).

So far it works well in my gusty lake conditons ; it really helps tu get going without much effort (pumping efficiency of the sail is just unbelievable compare to a normal sial) , and then I flatten the sails once up to avoid being overpowered.

I know adjustable outhaul are only used in regular windsurfing with large sails, but I think it is different for windfoiling in gusty conditions and constantly changing average wind.

In one of the video online, Bruce from Sailworks strongly recommends it.

As for the downhaul on regular sail, I believe the best approach, in case you have a visual trim system like North/Duotone, is to downhaul to the minimum recommended, but not beyond that (otherwise, from experience, the sail will become unstable very quickly iif the wind picks up slightly).



Grantmac
315 posts
Friday , 3 Jul 2020 1:46AM
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I run bare minimum downhaul and maximum printed outhaul or perhaps a touch more. That is on wave sails which set with a lot of positive outhaul regularly.

sailpilot
QLD, 725 posts
Friday , 3 Jul 2020 3:00PM
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No expert but Im using my freeride and slalom sails for foiling but going a size down in masts for eg my most used foiling sail atm is an old KA koncept 6.6 which isnt typically a good pumpable sail it is slippery and stable for wsurf but the sail becomes softer and pumpable with less tension on a 400 mast instead of a 430. Ive also used half and half well, as long as the bottom half is the softer section. I'll get around to propper foiling gear in the future but can definately get away with alternatives at the start.

thedoor
385 posts
Saturday , 4 Jul 2020 4:07AM
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Grantmac said..
I run bare minimum downhaul and maximum printed outhaul or perhaps a touch more. That is on wave sails which set with a lot of positive outhaul regularly.


Maybe this could be standard advice given to newbies as a likely good place to start?

Grantmac
315 posts
Saturday , 4 Jul 2020 6:12AM
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thedoor said..

Grantmac said..
I run bare minimum downhaul and maximum printed outhaul or perhaps a touch more. That is on wave sails which set with a lot of positive outhaul regularly.



Maybe this could be standard advice given to newbies as a likely good place to start?


Works best with sails that set using positive outhaul. Specifically HSM Qu4ds respond great.

My neutral setting Goya Fringe doesn't get the same springy pumping ability but it is kind of a passive tractor of a sail that doesn't require as much active pumping.

thedoor
385 posts
Saturday , 4 Jul 2020 10:54AM
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Grantmac said..

thedoor said..


Grantmac said..
I run bare minimum downhaul and maximum printed outhaul or perhaps a touch more. That is on wave sails which set with a lot of positive outhaul regularly.




Maybe this could be standard advice given to newbies as a likely good place to start?



Works best with sails that set using positive outhaul. Specifically HSM Qu4ds respond great.

My neutral setting Goya Fringe doesn't get the same springy pumping ability but it is kind of a passive tractor of a sail that doesn't require as much active pumping.


What makes a sail have "positive outhaul"

Grantmac
315 posts
Saturday , 4 Jul 2020 11:29AM
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When it rigs with significant outhaul past neutral. HSM wave sails all seem to rig this way. I'm not sure on others.



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"Foil wings and sail quiver" started by Poimax05