Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Replacing mast box on Wizard 125 - hits, tips, or tricks?

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Created by jims Two weeks ago, 19 Jun 2022
jims
115 posts
19 Jun 2022 10:16AM
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Took a very minor spill on the Wizard 125 today, held onto the boom as I'm supposed to, but found that I what I was holding on to was no longer attached to the board... The mast foot ripped out of the mast box. :-/

I'm now faced with having to replace the mast box - never done anything like this before, but figure it should be within my basic skills, if I've got the proper materials and information.

Anyone done a mast box replacement on a Wizard 125 before? (This is the green/blue/white color scheme model.) Is the box just glued into foam, or does it go all the way through the board to the bottom, or attach to some other internal structure? Do I order a generic mast box, or do I get something from Slingshot? (And if the latter, how does one go about that?) Any and all constructive suggestions are appreciated! :-)

It was truly a minor spill - this is clearly something that'd been lurking for a while. I'm just glad it finally let loose on the calm waters of my local lake, vs a mile or two out into a choppy body of water with no land on one side, LoL.

I was able to put the base back on by shoving it all the way forward in the mast box, and managed to get back to shore, but MAN that thing will NOT go upwind with the mast all the way forward. Thought for sure I was going to have to swim it back. It was one of the most frustrating and fruitless upwind efforts since I first set foot on a sailboard!!

Sandman1221
1996 posts
19 Jun 2022 10:23AM
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pictures?

jims
115 posts
19 Jun 2022 11:00AM
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The photos may look like 2 pics of the same side, but those are opposite sides of the mast box - both sides ripped out.








Mr Hooper
WA, 139 posts
19 Jun 2022 11:28AM
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It's very repairable. It's important that it's done correctly though.
It will be a bit of a mission if you haven't done a repair of this extent before.
Be picky about who's advice you take on this forum.
Good luck !

thedoor
1562 posts
19 Jun 2022 12:48PM
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might want to post it on the general windsurfing forum to get more input.

I dont think it goes all the way through but I would not be surprized if the board delaminated in the area around the mast foot which will need to be fixed too. I cracked my foil tracks and the guy who fixed it needed to replace all the glass/carbon on the back half of the board

Mark _australia
WA, 21491 posts
19 Jun 2022 2:29PM
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This is major surgery and is not just gluing in a new mast track. I encourage anyone to have a go at board repairs but this is the kinda one you do after many other smaller ding repairs etc. So no insult but what's your experience first

Then will u have access to big block of PVC core foam like divinycell etc - thats the stumbling block for many people as its not common

As an aside, never seen one fracture like that, looks like they've used a longboard fin box, not anything like the Chinook mast track we typically use on windsurfing boards. Pretty weak option.

Sandman1221
1996 posts
19 Jun 2022 7:24PM
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Any signs that it was leaking before hand?

Mark _australia
WA, 21491 posts
19 Jun 2022 8:46PM
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^^ totally irrelevant its clearly broken the track and torn the t-nut thru.
Refer to Mr Hooper's post above....

utcminusfour
423 posts
19 Jun 2022 8:54PM
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Bummer jims! It can be fixed.
Mark raises some good points and if you have a shop that can fix it that might be your best option. If you have the basics of glass work sorted and the gumption you can do it.
I have successfully used high density (5# or more) pour foam for mast and foil tracks instead of a block of divinycell.
Here is how I might go after it, I will let the others on this forum correct me if I am wrong.
I would find and mark the end of the delaminated area. If you tap it with the plastic end of a screwdriver you can hear the delam, it will sound dull compared to the good areas. Then cut out the old track out, going wider than the track by a couple inches in all directions including below. If any of the delam is still left you can cut the flaps free with a grinder. Then grind the edges of the good laminate to a bevel with a slope that is 12 times as long as the thickness of the laminate. Next install the new Chinook track, either in a block of diviny glued in with gorilla glue or use pour foam. For pour foam you're going to need to find a way to hold the track in place with wood strips and screws or something so it stays in place as the foam expands. Cover the top of the track with tape to keep the foam out of the track. Sand the cured foam flush. Do your best to match the original laminate. If it's black it's probably carbon, no biggie its just like glass except it cost more and is black. Try to match the fiber directions (you can't see the middle layers so assume alternating fiber direction 0/90/45) and definitely match or exceed the original thickness. Laminate right over the track and out completely over the 12/1 bevel. Use fairing putty and sanding to smooth things up trying not to sand into the fibers. Cut the track open with a trim router then use your favorite paint sprinkled with non skid additive. Don't worry what it looks like, now you can sail without fear of scratching your board!

Mark _australia
WA, 21491 posts
19 Jun 2022 9:26PM
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Please no gorilla glue. It needs moisture to cure so often does not cure all the way thru.

If using 2 part PU foam I'd suggest you fill the hole with no track, then router the slot for track and install it properly with resin/ q-cell butter and a couple layers glass. Using only foam around the track isn;t sufficient

utcminusfour
423 posts
19 Jun 2022 9:42PM
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Thanks Mark,
I had not heard that about gorilla glue. I spray it with water as directed and have had good luck.
I agree with your comments about the foam, that's a stronger way.

boardsurfr
WA, 1622 posts
19 Jun 2022 9:48PM
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I agree with Mark. Only addition is that if you are not familiar with using a router, you may end up making the slot for the track wider than it needs to be, which then would require a lot of resin with q-cells. I have used a mixed strategy when that happened: first glue the track in with resin, then use pour foam to fill any remaining larger holes. Since the track is already glued down, the foam won't move it around. And unlike resin, it will fill any hidden little crevices.

Of course, it's better to use the router so the track (or the track surrounded with d-cell) just fits, but that requires experience or talent.

Gwarn
140 posts
19 Jun 2022 9:51PM
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This is the inside of a 105 New deep tuttle install







I think the best advice will be from Mark or Mr. Hopper as they both do it for money (living)













Here's a couple extra misc. pictures of a SS 105
I must have taken off 2LBS of filler and paint ( Tijuana body shop)

utcminusfour
423 posts
19 Jun 2022 11:10PM
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Gwarn,
I agree with you that Mark and Mr Hooper are professionals and great sources for this info. They were not giving advice before I spoke up, they were just saying it's hard and be carefull who you listen to. It is not that hard and it's a board that before it broke was worth about $500. Just effin cut it, grind it, fill it, glue the track in, glass it and sail it. If I was not so fired up about this sport I would not take the abuse this forum dishes out when I am just trying to help.

Sandman1221
1996 posts
19 Jun 2022 11:26PM
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Select to expand quote
utcminusfour said..
Gwarn,
I agree with you that Mark and Mr Hooper are professionals and great sources for this info. They were not giving advice before I spoke up, they were just saying it's hard and be carefull who you listen to. It is not that hard and it's a board that before it broke was worth about $500. Just effin cut it, grind it, fill it, glue the track in, glass it and sail it. If I was not so fired up about this sport I would not take the abuse this forum dishes out when I am just trying to help.



Hear you, not everyone is a mature self aware adult, from what I can tell there are a few people with the mentality of young teenagers running around on this site! When I see immature comments from a person I just hide their posts, out of sight out of mind

ZeroVix
288 posts
19 Jun 2022 11:39PM
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Select to expand quote
Sandman1221 said..


utcminusfour said..
Gwarn,
I agree with you that Mark and Mr Hooper are professionals and great sources for this info. They were not giving advice before I spoke up, they were just saying it's hard and be carefull who you listen to. It is not that hard and it's a board that before it broke was worth about $500. Just effin cut it, grind it, fill it, glue the track in, glass it and sail it. If I was not so fired up about this sport I would not take the abuse this forum dishes out when I am just trying to help.




Hear you, not everyone is a mature self aware adult, from what I can tell there are a few people with the mentality of young teenagers running around on this site!



It takes one to know one. We know who are credible and not. Just saying. Sandman1221 is not credible. Keep going.

Sandman1221
1996 posts
19 Jun 2022 11:42PM
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Select to expand quote
ZeroVix said..



Sandman1221 said..





utcminusfour said..
Gwarn,
I agree with you that Mark and Mr Hooper are professionals and great sources for this info. They were not giving advice before I spoke up, they were just saying it's hard and be carefull who you listen to. It is not that hard and it's a board that before it broke was worth about $500. Just effin cut it, grind it, fill it, glue the track in, glass it and sail it. If I was not so fired up about this sport I would not take the abuse this forum dishes out when I am just trying to help.







Hear you, not everyone is a mature self aware adult, from what I can tell there are a few people with the mentality of young teenagers running around on this site!






It takes one to know one. We know who are credible and not. Just saying. Sandman1221 is not credible. Keep going.




And sure enough one of those people I was talking wants to prove my point! Thanks zerovix, and good bye! The hide feature is just the perfect solution.

jims
115 posts
20 Jun 2022 3:01AM
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I appreciate everyone's input and advice - keep it coming, please! (Particular Big Thanks go out to utcminusfour and Gwarn for the very detailed descriptions and photos - I really appreciate the time you put into those responses!)

I take no offense to the question of my experience - it's very valid, and somewhat of a concern for me. I've had the distinct (dis)pleasure of doing a lot of epoxy/fiberglass work while gutting and replacing the interior structure of my boat (stringers and floor), so I'm pretty familiar with the overall epoxy/fiberglass/peanutbutter/filler process, albeit on a larger, rougher scale. I've done some CF layup work in my radio control glider hobby, so feel Ok with that, albeit on a much smaller scale. I'm hoping maybe the sailboard would meet somewhere in the middle. :-) I'm Ok with a router, and I never route *anything* w/o a template, so I'm reasonably confident that I could make space for a new box w/o destroying the whole board.

Not to minimize the skills needed, but probably my greater concern is materials availability and cost. I have no idea how much it'd cost for a professional to do this repair, but it would involve me driving the 6-7 hours to the coast to even drop the board off. With current gas prices, that'd probably about double the cost of the repair, LoL. But, if I have to buy a bunch of specialty, expensive materials (possibly in a greater quantity than I'd ever use), it may not be a huge savings to do it myself. What order of magnitude would I likely be looking at to have it professionally done? ($250? $500? $750?) As pointed out, it's not a real valuable board to start with, so there's a question of how much money to sensibly throw into it.

It would seem that the riskiest part is just my lack of knowledge about sailboard construction. For instance, the black plastic part of the box that broke - there appears to be a while plastic structure behind/beside that. Is that part of the mast box, or is that integral to the board, and the mast box fits into that? I hadn't considered that the top sheet(s) have now been delaminated possibly a fair distance from the box, but that makes perfect sense. I assume it'd be pretty critical to get the top surface nice and flat, so that the mast base would sit firmly once snugged down for use.

Bottom line, my first preference would be to farm this out to someone, if it can be done for a few hundred bucks. But, I fear that is unlikely, and the prospect of having to transport it far away, have the work done, then make another trip to transport it back, make maybe digging into it myself the more sensible approach. Can anyone recommend good source(s) for the pour foam (I'm sold on the pour foam idea!), the mast box, appropriate CF cloth, etc? (I used TotalBoat Epoxy for my boat project, and West Systems epoxy for my RC glider projects, so I assume that a similar slow-cure epoxy (around 6 hr 'fast' cure, 10 hr slow cure) would be appropriate?

Thanks Again for the help!!

duzzi
718 posts
20 Jun 2022 3:17AM
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jims said..
The photos may look like 2 pics of the same side, but those are opposite sides of the mast box - both sides ripped out.









To be on the safe side, and to avoid further surprises, I would take out the old mast box completely, and put in a new one nicely surrounded by hard foam. Basically cat the deck around the box, cutting out 2-3" more on each side, take out box and foam, install the new box embedded in hard foam, glass over. Not a minor job. Unfortunately the "Board Lady" does not have an example on her web page, but this might help boardlady.com/jppowerbox.htm.

(I have noticed a lot of failures with Slingshot boards and foils ... this one gets a special mention!)

Grantmac
1426 posts
20 Jun 2022 4:07AM
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Where are you located Jims?

jims
115 posts
20 Jun 2022 5:16AM
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Select to expand quote
duzzi said..

(I have noticed a lot of failures with Slingshot boards and foils ... this one gets a special mention!)


Yeah, that's not a club I ever endeavored to get into, LoL... ;-)

jims
115 posts
20 Jun 2022 5:41AM
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Select to expand quote
Grantmac said..
Where are you located Jims?



I'm in Blacksburg, VA, US. (About 6-7 hrs from the NC Outer Banks, where I'm sure I'd find a shop plenty qualified to do the work - it's just a long-a$$ trip. I may head down there w/ my son to do a little surfing sometime next month, though, so perhaps could drop it off then. It'd actually be a relief to him, as he's not a big windsurfing fan, LoL!)

I'll admit that while part of me (most of me...) dreads it, I am sort of intrigued about doing it myself. @duzzi's mention of the 'Board Lady' provided some helpful links for suppliers, and it looks like the pour foam can be had in reasonable quantities. The other materials, I know where I can get. (I've got no idea about the weight or weave of the CF used in the topskin layup, though...) I assume one can just do a hand layup, and that a vacuum bag setup is not strictly required?

It looks like the 'Q-cell' filler is just microballoons? I've got a fair bit of silica thickener left over from the boat project, but that stuff is brutal to sand once it's set. I've used microballoons on the RC gliders before (much more sandable), and probably have a bit lying around, but I'm sure not nearly enough for a project on the scale of the mast box.

For pour foam, it looks like the choices are 2lb and 8lb - I assume one would want 8lb for surrounding the mast box?

Anyway, I'm going to call around down in the Outer Banks area, and see if I can get hold of someone who could do the work, see if/when they'd be available, gauge roughly how much they think it'd be, then make a call on whether to chance DIY'ing it, or take it to a pro. (BTW, if anyone knows of any reputable repair places in the VA/NC area, I'd be interested in hearing!)

utcminusfour
423 posts
20 Jun 2022 6:07AM
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If you have fixed your boats and gliders you got this jims! One of the mind games I play is to not count epoxy supplies and carbon for any one project unless it is large quanties for a new build. I think of those things as stock supplies needed on hand for repairs like the one you have.
Roughly 6 oz 3K plain weave carbon will do and not brake the bank.

Yes Q-cell = colodial silica or west system 406. Use it for structure. Use some thing like west systems 407 to fair before paint. No need for a bag because it is all working down on flat surfaces.

Don't discount that you have a great board now and you had to drive along way to get it. A new board will cost way more and you will have to drive or pay to ship it. Once you fix your board you will ride it like you stole it cause you know you can fix it again.

Here are some vendors that have been usefull to me. Good luck Mate!

www.jamestowndistributors.com/home?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkruVBhCHARIsACVIiOy9gBrAilYee_U22q3tTZQGHA5DrwECARH_tDqDTPqQk_lKBXajqAQaArDXEALw_wcB

compositeenvisions.com/product/carbon-fiber-fabric-plain-weave-3k-50-127cm-5-7oz-193gsm-hexcel-as4/

compositeenvisions.com/product/two-part-liquid-urethane-expanding-foam-8-lb-density/

www.carbonfiberglass.com/composite-materials/Carbon-Fiber-Fabric/5-7oz-3K-2x2-Twill-Carbon-Fiber-Fabric-Yard-50.html

Mr Hooper
WA, 139 posts
20 Jun 2022 8:23AM
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Hi Jim's, I think UTC has a few good points here.
With your experience it would be worth you having a go at it, especially seeing as the board's not worth a whole lot . If it's a bit rough it's probably ok.
Here's a few tips.
Rout old box out going down approx 5mm at a time. Try and do it as neatly as possible so you don't need to fill too much.
Before you install the new track rough it up as much as possible (36 grit)
Use Qcell/ resin mix to glue track in, not sillica.
I wouldn't bother with carbon over the track. 4 layers of 160gr glass will be do and it will be a lot cheaper and easier to work with than carbon.
If you can't be bothered and decide to get someone else to do it, go and see Mike Burns at Ocean Air Sports if you're around the Outer Banks Area. I'm sure he'll know of a good repair guy.

Cheers, Hoops

jims
115 posts
20 Jun 2022 1:20PM
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Thanks a bunch for the further info an encouragement! You guys' encouragement will likely end up costing me the 'idiot fee' assessed when a failed DIY project is finally taken to a pro to unscrew, LoL... (I appreciate the tip on calling Mike at Ocean Air - I'll do that tomorrow, and see who he can recommend, just so I have some idea of what that option looks like.)

So, it sounds like:

1. Open things up and remove the original mast box. (there's still the matter of that white plastic bit surrounding the part of the box that broke - I have no idea if that is part of the board, or part of the original track, nor how big it is and thus how big of a hole it'll leave behind if I can mange to remove it in a semi-finesse-ful, non-catastrophic manner.) I also need to figure out how far back the top sheet is damaged, and cut that out. (as well as prepare the edges with the proscribed bevel)

2. Determine how much gap there is between the new scary hole in my board and the new mast box. Depending on the size of the hole, either fill it all with pour foam, then route out a new slot for a snug fit of the new box, or if lucky enough to have the scary hole be a fairly decent fit for the new box, proceed directly to step 3. (It sounds like the advice is to NOT just pour-foam the new box into an oversize scary hole though, huh?)

3. Epoxy/q-cell the new box into the snug slot. (recessing the top surface of the box by the thickness of the intended topsheet layup)

4. Do a 3-layer layup to entomb it all in. (Whether glass or CF yet to be determined. Also, find some means of preventing epoxy from filling up the brand new mast box... That'd be a hoot to find that full of epoxy in the end, eh??)

5. Excavate down to the (hopefully empty) box slot, and clean the topsheet edges up up so that I can actually get a mast base down in there in order to sail.

6. Finish in some manner that meets my very low aesthetic standards, but that hopefully doesn't create a slick area upon which I try to dance while tacking. (I've got some Re-Deck, which I've had very limited success with, but which I guess is a tiny bit better than a baby-bottom-smooth surface.)

Please let me know where there are holes (literal or figurative) in my plan.

Thanks!!!

Mr Hooper
WA, 139 posts
20 Jun 2022 7:47PM
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In all of my years of board building I've never heard the term "entombed" I like it , I'm gonna use that from now on

boardsurfr
WA, 1622 posts
20 Jun 2022 9:25PM
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With your experience, you should be able to do the repair. Assuming you have none of the materials, you'll end up spending about $250 total ($100 West Marine epoxy, $50 glass, $50 PU foam, and some small stuff like q cells and sandpaper). If you don't have a router, add $100 for one from Harbor Freight tools.

The cost is perhaps similar to driving to Avon and having a pro repair is, which would be a good alternative, especially if you're don't mind spending a few days there. But if you do it yourself, you'll have plenty of material left for future repairs like nose jobs.

Paducah
1862 posts
20 Jun 2022 9:30PM
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step 3 - hoping that for brevity you excluded wrapping the glass around the mast track before inserting. take the extra and smooth it flush to the deck, then sand smooth.

step 6 - a number of non-slip options available. the pros will probably puke at this but you can also (after painting) wet with clear coat, sprinkle acrylic non-skid available at a hardware store and recoat with clear coat to fix the non-skid. Works pretty well if you don't want to do the sugar deck thing.

cf is not necessary, imho. If you do want something stronger than normal glass, get a bit of s-glass. Approaches the strength of cf but not as stiff or light which isn't a big deal for your board.

Recently moved mast track on an old board. It's not that hard, just take your time. It's a little more involved than, say, a nose ding because you need more specialized materials (e.g. high density pour foam, etc) and you can't as easily skimp on the steps.

good luck!

edit edit: Jims has enough experience it sounds like to know this but for anyone else doing any sort of repairs: PLEASE wear a mask when sanding, mixing bog (q-cells, microballoons). This stuff is absolutely nasty and you don't want it in your lungs. Gloves, too, when using epoxy.

edit - found pics of current project.

8lb/ft3 density foam routed out for new track. you can see where the original track was more forward. This is why I suggest caution when trying to foil with older boards as I spend a year trying to yank this board out of the water before getting a proper foil board with the mast track in the proper spot for foiling.


track installed and wrapping glass sanded smooth


3 layers of glass on top (2 s-glass, 1 e-glass) will fill/smooth with bog coat with the rest of the mods later on, rout out, finish, etc

Sandman1221
1996 posts
20 Jun 2022 9:49PM
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I would just add that it really is not that hard, just take your time. If something goes wrong, no big deal, just cut out the mistake and start over! There are those that like to think of themselves as professionals when repairing boards, which makes it sound difficult, but I just do not think it is something that qualifies as being a "profession". Sure, they like to think of themselves as such, but repairing surfboards and windsurfing boards just does not make it into the realm of "professional" IMO. Certainly not something you can get a degree in, and that is what professional really applies to, a field of study that leads to a degree from an accredited institution of higher learning. Yeah, they will be bitching over this, but who would not if they thought they were going to lose their self appointed degree and title of professional?

And when you talk about a real professional, you expect them to act professionally, a couple of these guys act like teenagers who have no sense of what professionalism stands for. No, I am not going to name them, that would be unprofessional, but they know who they are.

segler
WA, 1228 posts
20 Jun 2022 11:10PM
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Definitely read Board Lady's stuff. She might not have your exact application on her website, but there are many common themes to her various repairs. The more knowledge you have about all this, the better.

Sandman1221
1996 posts
21 Jun 2022 12:41AM
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Select to expand quote
Paducah said..
step 3 - hoping that for brevity you excluded wrapping the glass around the mast track before inserting. take the extra and smooth it flush to the deck, then sand smooth.

step 6 - a number of non-slip options available. the pros will probably puke at this but you can also (after painting) wet with clear coat, sprinkle acrylic non-skid available at a hardware store and recoat with clear coat to fix the non-skid. Works pretty well if you don't want to do the sugar deck thing.

cf is not necessary, imho. If you do want something stronger than normal glass, get a bit of s-glass. Approaches the strength of cf but not as stiff or light which isn't a big deal for your board.

Recently moved mast track on an old board. It's not that hard, just take your time. It's a little more involved than, say, a nose ding because you need more specialized materials (e.g. high density pour foam, etc) and you can't as easily skimp on the steps.

good luck!

edit edit: Jims has enough experience it sounds like to know this but for anyone else doing any sort of repairs: PLEASE wear a mask when sanding, mixing bog (q-cells, microballoons). This stuff is absolutely nasty and you don't want it in your lungs. Gloves, too, when using epoxy.

edit - found pics of current project.

8lb/ft3 density foam routed out for new track. you can see where the original track was more forward. This is why I suggest caution when trying to foil with older boards as I spend a year trying to yank this board out of the water before getting a proper foil board with the mast track in the proper spot for foiling.


track installed and wrapping glass sanded smooth


3 layers of glass on top (2 s-glass, 1 e-glass) will fill/smooth with bog coat with the rest of the mods later on, rout out, finish, etc





Paducah thanks for the detailed info. and pictures, but what do mean exactly when you say wrap fiberglass around mast track?, do you mean the bottom and sides of the track with the excess glass flanging out on the deck?



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"Replacing mast box on Wizard 125 - hits, tips, or tricks?" started by jims