Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

foiling jibe turning radius guide?

Reply
Created by Sandman1221 2 months ago, 25 Jul 2021
Sandman1221
921 posts
25 Jul 2021 12:31AM
Thumbs Up

Have come to the conclusion that I am making too tight of a radius on my foiling jibe attempts, and so the foil loses lift and I land on the water just as I flip the sail. Was thinking I need a reference for the turn radius, like watching the shoreline to see where I am in the jibe. On an AFS W95 with the F1080 wing usually when I practice jibes. Have tried on the F770 wing too, but going a lot faster then so not as comfortable trying things out.

Obviously, paying attention to board/foil speed is another way, I have been trying to feel my way with that and it has not worked, one second plenty of speed and then not enough.

What are you foiling jibers doing, or what did you do initially, to keep the turn radius large enough to keep the foil powered up through the jibe?

Sandman1221
921 posts
25 Jul 2021 3:05AM
Thumbs Up

So the important thing I need to remember is foils lose speed and so lift in turns, now that is for my wings, the big 2000+ cm2 wings probably do not lose as much lift since they are going slower to begin with.

Awalkspoiled
170 posts
25 Jul 2021 3:52AM
Thumbs Up

Don't know if this will help but what I've been doing is practicing really big S-Turns, taking it to just before the sail flip and then heading back upwind, noticing where the foil starts to lose power, and how tightly I can crank it before just dropping off the foil. Also gives me a better sense of where true downwind is. I can do half a dozen of these without dropping off foil, so it's less taxing than a touch-and-go jibe, and I'm starting to feel more confident maintaining level flight through the turn, and much more confident about sending it in a gust.

Sandman1221
921 posts
25 Jul 2021 4:29AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Awalkspoiled said..
Don't know if this will help but what I've been doing is practicing really big S-Turns, taking it to just before the sail flip and then heading back upwind, noticing where the foil starts to lose power, and how tightly I can crank it before just dropping off the foil. Also gives me a better sense of where true downwind is. I can do half a dozen of these without dropping off foil, so it's less taxing than a touch-and-go jibe, and I'm starting to feel more confident maintaining level flight through the turn, and much more confident about sending it in a gust.


Yeah, Awalkspoiled, when I started to initiate jibes late yesterday l backed off several when I felt my speed drop (gusts were getting shorter), but did not think to purposely do what you said, will give it a try, thanks!

chuckmaui
NSW, 50 posts
25 Jul 2021 8:01AM
Thumbs Up

I agree with above, practice S turns at speed, when you slow down, head back upwind and repeat more turns.
I find the more speed you carry thru turns the easier the jibes are, watch the videos of the PWA Tiberias competition to pick up the jibe sequence you will see there, long downwind jibe leg with speed, quick sail flip and tighten tun at last 15% of turn, complete jibe turn heading slightly off the wind on new tack. Repeat 1000 times ! or at least 100 times !

swoosh
QLD, 1863 posts
25 Jul 2021 10:36AM
Thumbs Up

You shouldn't really need to be powered through the gybe to fly through. The beauty of the foil its so efficient, that you can fly a foil gybe with not much speed, and no power. Can easily fly through gybes even in light winds if I enter at 13kts board speed, and exit often below 10kts. Quicker gybes I'm entering around 20kts, and probably only down to 15-16kts mid corner.

My gybe radius's vary from about 15m to 25m.

Nikita
QLD, 118 posts
25 Jul 2021 11:13AM
Thumbs Up

Gybe radius will depend on wind speed. If you carve too wide in light wind, you'll run out of speed, as you'll loose apparent wind quickly through the turn. If you carve tight in high wind, it's easy to loose balance during a gust.

So in light wind - tighter radius. High wind - wider radius.

In overpowered conditions I often carve extra wide just to wash off apparent wind through the turn.
If duck gybing, wind strength will change the rig flip timing. In light wind, duck super early. High wind, duck later.

Sandman1221
921 posts
25 Jul 2021 10:18AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Nikita said..
Gybe radius will depend on wind speed. If you carve too wide in light wind, you'll run out of speed, as you'll loose apparent wind quickly through the turn. If you carve tight in high wind, it's easy to loose balance during a gust.

So in light wind - tighter radius. High wind - wider radius.

In overpowered conditions I often carve extra wide just to wash off apparent wind through the turn.
If duck gybing, wind strength will change the rig flip timing. In light wind, duck super early. High wind, duck later.



Nikita, thank you that was very helpful, I usually practice foiling gybes in light winds, 8-10 knots, thought I was going too tight for the wind speed, will try tighter gybes next time.

Sandman1221
921 posts
25 Jul 2021 10:21AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
swoosh said..
You shouldn't really need to be powered through the gybe to fly through. The beauty of the foil its so efficient, that you can fly a foil gybe with not much speed, and no power. Can easily fly through gybes even in light winds if I enter at 13kts board speed, and exit often below 10kts. Quicker gybes I'm entering around 20kts, and probably only down to 15-16kts mid corner.

My gybe radius's vary from about 15m to 25m.


okay, thanks swoosh, will keep an eye on my radius, have some telephone pole posts (with boat speed warnings) I can use to gybe around and get a sense of my gybe radius.

WhiteofHeart
603 posts
25 Jul 2021 1:59PM
Thumbs Up

If you drop of the foil upon the sail flip you probably flip too late. Might not have much to do with your radius.

aeroegnr
290 posts
25 Jul 2021 7:38PM
Thumbs Up

Good advice guys. I'm here taking notes.

Sandman1221
921 posts
25 Jul 2021 10:10PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
WhiteofHeart said..
If you drop of the foil upon the sail flip you probably flip too late. Might not have much to do with your radius.


okay WoH thanks, I flip later rather than early, will keep an eye on that next time.

berowne
NSW, 541 posts
30 Jul 2021 11:12PM
Thumbs Up

Some good ideas from this infamous gyber...

boardsurfr
WA, 1416 posts
30 Jul 2021 10:02PM
Thumbs Up

Record your sessions with a camera (clew or mast mount), and add a decent (5 Hz+) GPS. That will tell you exactly what's going on. One issue I often have is incorrect foot position during the step. Sometimes, the new back foot is on the wrong side of the board, like my left foot on this picture:


That can make the board turn the other way in the middle of the turn, which you can see in 5 Hz GPS tracks:

With the board briefly turning back, you go downwind longer, which makes you loose speed. Worse, the sail flip can get more difficult, since the sail wants to flag out to the front, which will also make you loose speed.

The other thing that's easy to see on the camera footage is if you step forward to far with the new front foot. But that's probably not an issue if you use straps, and step right back into the strap.

An example of how you can use camera footage and GPS tracks to trouble shoot jibes is at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2021/07/foil-jibes-big-feet-and-forgetfulness.html
Your problems may well be different, of course.

Sandman1221
921 posts
30 Jul 2021 10:58PM
Thumbs Up

Hey berowne and boardsurfr thanks for the video and screen shots, will try to get out today wind permitting, think my main issue is need to flip sail early when still under full power, versus what I have been doing which is flipping it late when power has dropped off which feels safer but not enough power to stay foiling at the sail flip.

Sandman1221
921 posts
13 Sep 2021 9:45AM
Thumbs Up

So have been out and I think my problem is that when I move my rear foot across the board I "carve" the gybe (as in a fin power gybe) as I flip the sail, I do make the gybe with rear foot moving into front strap, but board ends up on the water due to loss of speed, next time will concentrate on keeping the board more level when I put my back foot on the far side rail, then my gybe will have a larger turning radius.

Daithidmg
25 posts
13 Sep 2021 9:17PM
Thumbs Up

Hey Sandmand,
Same set-up as you AFS W95 & 1080 wing. for me the gybe is about a constant medium radius, a little wider than a freeride fin gybe, too wide increases the apparent wind problem in the mid part particularly in lighter wind.

Key points I've found are
- Centre back foot first and then to the downwind side just in front of the back strap
- Focus on extending the front arm to set the entry, rather than just thinking about foot pressure
- Flip the rig first and relatively early for sub 6m ish no cam sails, switch the feet first for larger cammed sails.

I put this short video together last year when I was just playing around with some ideas, no exactly top$ production values but gives the general idea and good view of what the hands and feet are doing.

Paducah
1473 posts
13 Sep 2021 11:31PM
Thumbs Up

The jibe is definitely can be "carved" - it's one of the things that makes it fun once you begin to nail them consistently. It's important, though, to stop the carving while off the wind in the new direction (note in Daithidmg's video how he finishes off the wind in the drone shot and then climbs back up to a reach). If you try to carve back up to a reach, you'll run out of gas unless you are strongly powered going in. Spot the exit through the window of the sail as you begin. As you begin to sheet in going back on a reach, you'll get an extra bit of acceleration which will keep you foiling.

Jibe in the gusts (unless you are insanely overpowered). The power shuts off as you turn downwind so don't feel like you are going to blow up. You may have to over sheet for a split second to initiate the turn but very quickly open back up and keep your arms out away from you.

Nice vid, Daithidmg!

utcminusfour
280 posts
13 Sep 2021 11:33PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Daithidmg said..
Hey Sandmand,
Same set-up as you AFS W95 & 1080 wing. for me the gybe is about a constant medium radius, a little wider than a freeride fin gybe, too wide increases the apparent wind problem in the mid part particularly in lighter wind.

Key points I've found are
- Centre back foot first and then to the downwind side just in front of the back strap
- Focus on extending the front arm to set the entry, rather than just thinking about foot pressure
- Flip the rig first and relatively early for sub 6m ish no cam sails, switch the feet first for larger cammed sails.

I put this short video together last year when I was just playing around with some ideas, no exactly top$ production values but gives the general idea and good view of what the hands and feet are doing.



Smooth gybes! Great video and instruction! Thanks!

Sandman1221
921 posts
14 Sep 2021 2:03AM
Thumbs Up

Daithidmg, great video, thank you! So compared to you, I lean the board way over. You flip first, then switch the feet and that may help to keep the board level. I move rear foot across the board to opposite rail, lean the board into the gybe and then switch feet as I flip the sail, and continue to lean into the gybe.

Will try keeping board more level when I move rear foot to opposite rail, flip sail first, and then switch feet, that seems like it will keep the board more level.

I really like carving the gybe due-to the initial acceleration, but it is killing my speed in the end.

Paducah
1473 posts
14 Sep 2021 6:50AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Sandman1221 said..
Daithidmg, great video, thank you! So compared to you, I lean the board way over. You flip first, then switch the feet and that may help to keep the board level. I move rear foot across the board to opposite rail, lean the board into the gybe and then switch feet as I flip the sail, and continue to lean into the gybe.

Will try keeping board more level when I move rear foot to opposite rail, flip sail first, and then switch feet, that seems like it will keep the board more level.

I really like carving the gybe due-to the initial acceleration, but it is killing my speed in the end.


If you are doing a foiling "step jibe", you should be finished carving by the sail flip. Continuing to carve upwind is having a detrimental effect.

OldGuy3
21 posts
14 Sep 2021 8:59AM
Thumbs Up

Not sure if coincidence or cause and effect. The only few foiling jibes made have been large radius. Need to fiip the sail, sail switch, usually need to generate some lift, and then switch the feet. Speeds have been from maybe too slow to relatively fast. Using the SS i84 for learning to jibe. I think the slow stall speed helps.

LeeD
3142 posts
14 Sep 2021 9:42AM
Thumbs Up

Also old, but very slow in learning the foiling jibe.
My best attempts are always with the 600 sq cm front foil.....since it goes a little faster, and glides seemingly lots better, it finishes the turns with more exit speed. 72 kgs.

Sandman1221
921 posts
14 Sep 2021 10:20AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..
Daithidmg, great video, thank you! So compared to you, I lean the board way over. You flip first, then switch the feet and that may help to keep the board level. I move rear foot across the board to opposite rail, lean the board into the gybe and then switch feet as I flip the sail, and continue to lean into the gybe.

Will try keeping board more level when I move rear foot to opposite rail, flip sail first, and then switch feet, that seems like it will keep the board more level.

I really like carving the gybe due-to the initial acceleration, but it is killing my speed in the end.



If you are doing a foiling "step jibe", you should be finished carving by the sail flip. Continuing to carve upwind is having a detrimental effect.


Hey Paducah, I agree, I get caught in the carve and it is hard to get out (mentally and physically), will try less angle on the carve. Maybe my MTB experience going into tight banked turns is messing up my foiling.

Sandman1221
921 posts
14 Sep 2021 10:23AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
OldGuy3 said..
Not sure if coincidence or cause and effect. The only few foiling jibes made have been large radius. Need to fiip the sail, sail switch, usually need to generate some lift, and then switch the feet. Speeds have been from maybe too slow to relatively fast. Using the SS i84 for learning to jibe. I think the slow stall speed helps.


Yeah OldGuy, realize the AFS F1080 wing is not the easiest to learn on, the speed going into the gybe is a rush, but think I am pretty close if I can just open up my radius.

Paducah
1473 posts
14 Sep 2021 9:37PM
Thumbs Up

For 80kg and less, the F800/1080 is a lovely wing to jibe

Anyways... check out the jibes at 0:50 and 1:09. Notice that, as we were talking about, the carve is over at the sail flip. (And, those are pretty hard carves.)

Daithidmg
25 posts
14 Sep 2021 11:26PM
Thumbs Up

Thanks for the comments video.

I've been meaning to do an updated "step" gybe video, what I find works for larger / cammed sails so I though this was as good a time as any.

As you'll see I don't always nail the new front foot into the strap on the switch but if the body and rig position are right and you're somewhere close it'll look after itself.

Cheers,
Dave

boardsurfr
WA, 1416 posts
15 Sep 2021 2:16AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Paducah said..
Anyways... check out the jibes at 0:50 and 1:09. Notice that, as we were talking about, the carve is over at the sail flip. (And, those are pretty hard carves.)


I would not describe it like that - it's a more gradual thing than an all-or-nothing "it's over". The board does flatten out during the sail flip, but afterwards, the windward rail goes down again, and the foilers keep turning upwind. That's easy to see in the jibes at 0:50 and 1:25, or in the training videos by Sam Ross, Nico Prien, and others.

I guess what you mean is that there is a pronounced difference to the sail-first jibe, where you want to keep carving while the sail flips? Flattening out the board on a downwind course, with board speed less than wind speed, would just flag the sail out to the front, which usually results in a crash.

lwalker
49 posts
15 Sep 2021 5:30AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
boardsurfr said..
Record your sessions with a camera (clew or mast mount), and add a decent (5 Hz+) GPS.


I didn't even know 5HZ GPS logging was a thing, as I'm too slow for GPS speed sailing. I'd love to see high res plots of my jibes and 360 attempts. But, then I read your blog about the available choices for them. So, it's assemble your own from parts or buy an expensive one that is either very hard to get or is unreliable? Building one sounds kinda fun, but do I really want to have another piece of kit to find and sort out before going on the water? Eh, the $50 option sounds like a good winter project to occupy a rainy Saturday. Thanks!

Sandman1221
921 posts
15 Sep 2021 5:52AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Paducah said..
For 80kg and less, the F800/1080 is a lovely wing to jibe

Anyways... check out the jibes at 0:50 and 1:09. Notice that, as we were talking about, the carve is over at the sail flip. (And, those are pretty hard carves.)



Well I am 86 kg, and I think my carves were harder than those, thanks for the video.

Sandman1221
921 posts
15 Sep 2021 9:38AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Sandman1221 said..

Paducah said..
For 80kg and less, the F800/1080 is a lovely wing to jibe

Anyways... check out the jibes at 0:50 and 1:09. Notice that, as we were talking about, the carve is over at the sail flip. (And, those are pretty hard carves.)




Well I am 86 kg, and I think my carves were harder than those, thanks for the video.


Actually, I carve as much as they do, BUT they straighten out after the initial carve as they flip the sail, I on the other hand keep carving.



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing Foiling


"foiling jibe turning radius guide?" started by Sandman1221