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Gorilla glue for fin box install

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Created by col5555 A week ago, 10 Jan 2020
col5555
WA, 319 posts
10 Jan 2020 8:18AM
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Anyone used this stuff for fin box install.
Its water activated expanding type foam. Popular in America for box installs.

515
346 posts
10 Jan 2020 9:05AM
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I think the expanding foam is great if you have ripped a box out and can replace ripped out foam.
If you are putting a US fin box in my preference is high density foam with glass and carbon layers, then grind excess off and cap it with glass/carbon. This way you can run a 30cm plus fin no problem and will take a high speed turtle crash to do damage.
If you are inserting small side fin boxes then it could be handy.
Out of interest what are you doing and what is the board construction?

forceten
875 posts
10 Jan 2020 9:40AM
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No it's not. It's used for some repairs by people who don't do a proper repair.

to install a box, it should be surrounded by core cell or diviny cell or similar, or fill cavity with 8lb poor foam, install box using proper marine epoxy, wrapped in carbon.


col5555
WA, 319 posts
10 Jan 2020 10:27AM
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Just to clarify it is a foil box in a big block of divinycell.
Trying to decide if gorilla glue is ok for the buttering in or just use resin and micro ballons.

windwakerider
WA, 15 posts
10 Jan 2020 9:28PM
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Yep, works great but your working time is significantly reduced.

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tnstall+tuttle+box+with+gorilla+glue&view=detail&mid=8AA6DA277E91224DD0E38AA6DA277E91224DD0E3&FORM=VIRE

forceten
875 posts
10 Jan 2020 11:51PM
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Select to expand quote
col5555 said..
Just to clarify it is a foil box in a big block of divinycell.
Trying to decide if gorilla glue is ok for the buttering in or just use resin and micro ballons.


Even more stress on a foil box, I would think. The expense of this would dictate a proper install, IMO.

515
346 posts
11 Jan 2020 8:48AM
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Select to expand quote
col5555 said..
Just to clarify it is a foil box in a big block of divinycell.
Trying to decide if gorilla glue is ok for the buttering in or just use resin and micro ballons.


Both will work, if you haven't used the gorilla glue before maybe do a trial mix to see how reacts.
The resin micro ballons is going to work, the blue planet video talks about the heat but if you mix in a 4 lite ice cream container and work fast it's not a problem. Good luck

Grantmac
128 posts
11 Jan 2020 8:55AM
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Slow set epoxy won't get too hot. Make sure you tie that foil box into the deck too.

forceten
875 posts
Sunday , 12 Jan 2020 12:28AM
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West Systems epoxy, comes in Fast, normal, slow and tropical hardners. Fast would melt the EPS , or any if used in enough quantity.
Gorilla May work to a degree but it's not designed for this.

Mark _australia
WA, 19650 posts
Sunday , 12 Jan 2020 12:45PM
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I agree - do it right. People using foaming PU glues are usually using it to fill a foam void (from ripping the old one out). Use epoxy.

If doing it in WA this time of year a super slow hardener is a must

West 105 and their super slow 109 - be aware its 1:3 not 1:5 like all the other West stuff.
Mix with your q-cells, but addition of milled fibre with help a LOT with strength.
couple of layers of 4oz around the divinycell block too.
Grind it off after install then cap the bottom of the board with at least 2 x 4oz about half A4 paper size
Cap the deck as much as u can and as heavy as you can will really help.... think 5 or 6 layers of 4oz tapering out

forceten
875 posts
Monday , 13 Jan 2020 12:37AM
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West Systems, offer plungers that work on different size group containers. It dispenses the correct ratio of liquid. It's an additional expense, but makes it easy.

Im pleased to read that Mark , has noted ,that to do things right.

i use pour foam, 2 stage, it's not an adhesive, it's like said a filler.




col5555
WA, 319 posts
Monday , 13 Jan 2020 3:46AM
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Thanks all for your replys !
Will do it the traditional way with resin, q cells and milled fibre as Mark suggested.

The Americans love the foaming PU for box installs ?

forceten
875 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 12:50AM
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col5555 said..
Thanks all for your replys !
Will do it the traditional way with resin, q cells and milled fibre as Mark suggested.

The Americans love the foaming PU for box installs ?


I use pour foam, 2 stage, 8 lb.
i open the board with a router, hole being larger than the fin box being used. As 3/16 inch larger on the sides, and hole goes to the underside of the deck. Fill hole with the pour foam. The foam does not react to the EPS inner core. I then reduce the hole size, to allow the box to be wrapped, and hole filled with carbon, glass and epoxy, with the fin box inserted. The box gets overlapped on the bottom using glass, or combo carbon glass. This requires some removal to allow flush. I have done about 20 boxes , slot US, and ProBox
in this manner. I have tested the strength by swinging a weight at a mock fin installed, in a board section, so realistic, the real test is removing about 6, very strong . so confidant I installed in 2 brand new boards to create trifin's.

Mark _australia
WA, 19650 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 12:29PM
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^^ again that is popular in USA as you have that density of 2 part PU foams. We can only get about 2-3lb and its pricey.

Its an acceptable alternative to routing a big hole and setting a big block of divinycell / corecell etc into the board as its hard to find thick foam without buying a whole sheet (at around $1000)


However, for the Aussies, the same effect can be achieved by simply laminating off-cut strips of 5mm thick divinycell / corecell etc around the box and then setting the whole thing in the board (like a slot box is)
Especially if its just for small fins like a thruster conversion

forceten
875 posts
Wednesday , 15 Jan 2020 12:15AM
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I looked prior for pour foam, in Australia and posted the result .
www.rowetrading.com.au/foam-it15--rigid-polyurethane-foam-trial-smooth-on

part of issue is your pour foam is mostly listed at 34-36kg/m3, or such this is 2.1 lbs.

i can buy in 2 4 8 10 and 16 lbs density.
i can also purchase cell in smaller sections , in various thickness. Ie 12x12 size.

Paducah
669 posts
Wednesday , 15 Jan 2020 12:20AM
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So, is 8 lb pour foam the equivalent of using a divinycell block or just to fill up space?

forceten
875 posts
Thursday , 16 Jan 2020 12:22AM
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Paducah said..
So, is 8 lb pour foam the equivalent of using a divinycell block or just to fill up space?



Not so easy to answer. Divinycell or corecell or , comes in thickness which range from 1/8 - 1 1/4 inch. H80 Diviny H80 is 5 lb density. pour foam , does things like fills in irregular gaps, is easy to work with, on both install and removal of excess and finish.
fin box, a US box is some kinda plastic , on installation I epoxy around the sides of the box diviny in say 1/4 thickness, this then sets into the cavity of pour foam, wrapped in carbon/ glass. pour foam, can be used to fill a delam hole, then finish with carbon / glass.

I think an equivalent size block of cell, is lighter than pour foam, but insignificant IMO.
the advise I received from a board builder , was their are more than 1 way to make a cake.
the pour foam has worked for me so very well. It's waterproof .

hoop
WA, 1812 posts
Thursday , 16 Jan 2020 1:18AM
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Why do people still insist on using imperial measurements?
I blame the Seppo's. Why couldn't hey just move to metric like the rest of the planet did 50 years ago?

Imax1
VIC, 2368 posts
Thursday , 16 Jan 2020 6:55PM
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Why do some people wrap the box in glass before gluing into the foam ?
Isn't that just putting a layer of hardness around an already hard box . Whats the benefit ?

forceten
875 posts
Friday , 16 Jan 2020 11:28PM
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Imax1 said..
Why do some people wrap the box in glass before gluing into the foam ?
Isn't that just putting a layer of hardness around an already hard box . Whats the benefit ?



The glass and or carbon, is a reinforcement, it adheres to the box and the material the box is going into, so chemically infused to both. If ever you remove a box that was installed in this manner it becomes apparent, by what comes out.
Foam you mention , hopefully is something more dense , unless it's pour foam, or cell .
the core on windsurf board is EPS, this needs some further strength, in my very humble opinion.

Imax1
VIC, 2368 posts
Friday , 17 Jan 2020 7:32AM
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Select to expand quote
forceten said..


Imax1 said..
Why do some people wrap the box in glass before gluing into the foam ?
Isn't that just putting a layer of hardness around an already hard box . Whats the benefit ?





The glass and or carbon, is a reinforcement, it adheres to the box and the material the box is going into, so chemically infused to both. If ever you remove a box that was installed in this manner it becomes apparent, by what comes out.
Foam you mention , hopefully is something more dense , unless it's pour foam, or cell .
the core on windsurf board is EPS, this needs some further strength, in my very humble opinion.



I understand what your saying but still don't get it
When I install boxes I rout out the correct size hole in the laminate then gouge out the eps a good inch wider and deeper than the box . Then fill with hard two part expand foam . Then re rout . Just as strong or stronger than a cell block because your leaving more of the original laminate . I use this method when adding boxes , repairing boxes , putting boxes in during a build and plug inserts. Waffling now .
I still don't understand what wrapping the box does .
Resin sticks the same to a box weather it's glassed or not and the same to the cell block ,the way I understand is wrapping the box just slightly makes it bigger . It's still going to fail the same where it joins to the cell. or am I missing something .?
I get it if the box is pushed into a glass lined hole and there is excess glass that gets feathered out sideways onto the foam or laminate.
Confused.

col5555
WA, 319 posts
Friday , 17 Jan 2020 5:05AM
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Mark _australia said..
I agree - do it right. People using foaming PU glues are usually using it to fill a foam void (from ripping the old one out). Use epoxy.

If doing it in WA this time of year a super slow hardener is a must

West 105 and their super slow 109 - be aware its 1:3 not 1:5 like all the other West stuff.
Mix with your q-cells, but addition of milled fibre with help a LOT with strength.
couple of layers of 4oz around the divinycell block too.
Grind it off after install then cap the bottom of the board with at least 2 x 4oz about half A4 paper size
Cap the deck as much as u can and as heavy as you can will really help.... think 5 or 6 layers of 4oz tapering out


Interested in why "cap the deck as much as you can" I would have thought more on the bottom to take the vertical loads.
Anyways I will put plenty on top and bottom.
Carbon or glass ? any benefit in using expensive carbon in this situation

Mark _australia
WA, 19650 posts
Friday , 17 Jan 2020 9:31AM
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Just glass Col.
The reason I said cap the deck lots is to avoid the upwards 'push out' and its easier to refinish compared to blending out more than a couple of layers on the bottom.


Imax - I believe in wrapping the box with glass for a couple of reasons
Same as putting in a divinycell block, it spreads load more. The glass is much higher tensile strength that just the filler of resin an q-cells or whatever, so for one end of the box to try and sink by point loading the foam underneath becomes much harder.
Further the glass protrudes above the deck and is then ground off flat, and the deck laminate bonds to it. Again, the glass is stronger and will resist the box movement better than just a filler-to-deck-laminate bond will.

gorgesailor
242 posts
Saturday , 17 Jan 2020 11:01PM
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Select to expand quote
Imax1 said..

forceten said..



Imax1 said..
Why do some people wrap the box in glass before gluing into the foam ?
Isn't that just putting a layer of hardness around an already hard box . Whats the benefit ?






The glass and or carbon, is a reinforcement, it adheres to the box and the material the box is going into, so chemically infused to both. If ever you remove a box that was installed in this manner it becomes apparent, by what comes out.
Foam you mention , hopefully is something more dense , unless it's pour foam, or cell .
the core on windsurf board is EPS, this needs some further strength, in my very humble opinion.




I understand what your saying but still don't get it
When I install boxes I rout out the correct size hole in the laminate then gouge out the eps a good inch wider and deeper than the box . Then fill with hard two part expand foam . Then re rout . Just as strong or stronger than a cell block because your leaving more of the original laminate . I use this method when adding boxes , repairing boxes , putting boxes in during a build and plug inserts. Waffling now .
I still don't understand what wrapping the box does .
Resin sticks the same to a box weather it's glassed or not and the same to the cell block ,the way I understand is wrapping the box just slightly makes it bigger . It's still going to fail the same where it joins to the cell. or am I missing something .?
I get it if the box is pushed into a glass lined hole and there is excess glass that gets feathered out sideways onto the foam or laminate.
Confused.


I agree, it is useless with one caveat: If you fillet the top edge of the cavity so that as you wrap the glass around the box you also lap it out onto the skin, then you are more effectively connecting the box to the outer laminate - in effect hanging it on the the skin & thin when you go back over the top of the box you create a nice seal & connection. If it is a single fin box it should be tied to the deck as well IMHO...

forceten
875 posts
Saturday , 18 Jan 2020 12:16AM
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Well...ahhh, I disagree Gorge Sailer, and further do agree with Marks discussion.
if I'm installing boxes in a brand new board or a $50 swap meet one, I want to do the job once, and strong enough.
US box have no provision to "tie into the deck". They were designed for small fins , I use the same procedure with them as any other I install.
powerbox and tuttles are primarily used on long fins, so need even more structor support. I do recall Starboard used tuttles on wave boards, some years back. Notable are Mikes Labs, from the Bay Area in California, who used tuttles on near everything. My use of materials started with my first tri fin conversion, like 2006, yawn bored bla bla, I used the recommendations, do several builders, most notable Bouke of Witchcraft.
as I said before, more than one way to bake a cake.

the OP question was the use of Gorilla Glue, what is your opinion on that ?


LeeD
950 posts
Saturday , 18 Jan 2020 2:20AM
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Woodies with US box can tie to deck.



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"Gorilla glue for fin box install" started by col5555