Forums > Windsurfing General

Harness line length

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Created by shmish 24 days ago, 3 Feb 2020
shmish
23 posts
3 Feb 2020 12:32PM
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I have some very old DaKine adjustable harness lines and I'd like to get some new fixed lines. Mine are pretty floppy so they tend to twist which can make it hard to hook in. When I place the middle of my palm on the boom, the ends loop around my elbow and the distance from the boom to the loop is about 13.5". Double that and I'm basically at 28". The thing I don't get is that long lines are relatively popular and 28" is on the longer side of the median offerings. However, I'm not very big or tall, I'm about 5'5" / 166 cm. So it seems odd to me that I might be ordering longish harness lines. Can anyone confirm that 28" is reasonable for someone my size?

kato
VIC, 2649 posts
3 Feb 2020 5:15PM
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Im 6 ft and use 28. Go with what works

Subsonic
WA, 1887 posts
3 Feb 2020 6:36PM
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Im not much taller than you. And went through the "trial and error" method to find the right size . Gave everything from 26 to 32 a go.


After much error, i found 28 was the size that worked for me. Enough space between the boom and me to hold good stance and not feel like going over the handlebars, but not buttkissing the waves.


like kato said it is a personal thing, go with what works for you, but 28 seems to be a good number for many sailors i know (big and small).

Roy
VIC, 93 posts
3 Feb 2020 10:25PM
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Just one comment, one brands 28" can be quite different to another brands 28". Best to take your old lines into the shop when buying a new set if thats possible.

Mr Milk
NSW, 1807 posts
3 Feb 2020 11:37PM
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Doesn't it all depend on how high you set your boom? I use 24" lines with a waist harness and boom usually sitting about 2/3 of the way up the cut out.

JakeNN
103 posts
3 Feb 2020 8:48PM
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most of the wave pros use 30 to 34" FWIW .. maybe only a few at 28".

FormulaNova
NSW, 10138 posts
3 Feb 2020 11:50PM
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Select to expand quote
shmish said..
I have some very old DaKine adjustable harness lines and I'd like to get some new fixed lines. Mine are pretty floppy so they tend to twist which can make it hard to hook in. When I place the middle of my palm on the boom, the ends loop around my elbow and the distance from the boom to the loop is about 13.5". Double that and I'm basically at 28". The thing I don't get is that long lines are relatively popular and 28" is on the longer side of the median offerings. However, I'm not very big or tall, I'm about 5'5" / 166 cm. So it seems odd to me that I might be ordering longish harness lines. Can anyone confirm that 28" is reasonable for someone my size?


I think its more about arm length, and Peter Hart even wrote an article about this after noticing that his guests on his trips all had different setups on their gear that was independent of their height. He figured it was more related to arm length which makes sense when you think about it.

I find 28 is fine, and 32 or 34 are too long. Keep in mind though that using long harness lines generally requires a change in your posture and you drop down a bit more than out... *I think.

forceten
902 posts
3 Feb 2020 11:48PM
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I have blue eyes. I use 26-28 depending on the brand, which mostly is DaKine UNIs, and several Severne in a multi color red, those are 28. simce near everyone uses inches on these I have not included cm.
This sentence coming from someone who pointed out the US doesn't use metric , like most of the world.
go figure

LeeD
1008 posts
4 Feb 2020 12:36AM
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24", brown eyes, seat, both ws and foil.

duzzi
189 posts
4 Feb 2020 1:14AM
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Select to expand quote
shmish said..
I have some very old DaKine adjustable harness lines and I'd like to get some new fixed lines. Mine are pretty floppy so they tend to twist which can make it hard to hook in. When I place the middle of my palm on the boom, the ends loop around my elbow and the distance from the boom to the loop is about 13.5". Double that and I'm basically at 28". The thing I don't get is that long lines are relatively popular and 28" is on the longer side of the median offerings. However, I'm not very big or tall, I'm about 5'5" / 166 cm. So it seems odd to me that I might be ordering longish harness lines. Can anyone confirm that 28" is reasonable for someone my size?




I am 4-5 cm taller and use 28-30, but as others have said it does depend on arm length. Anything shorter is not such a great idea. Do remember that depending on how you set the distance between the straps on the boom the effective length varies, so you have some adjustment. If you are at 13.5" now getting a DaKine fixed 28 would seem fine, if a bit short, but again if that turns out to be the case just narrow the space btw the straps, or the opposite if too long.

LeeD
1008 posts
4 Feb 2020 3:10AM
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Harness tightness shortens lines.
Loose harness lengthens lines.

Grantmac
155 posts
4 Feb 2020 3:41AM
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28" would be about right for your height if using modern equipment and technique.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6875 posts
4 Feb 2020 11:12AM
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Select to expand quote
shmish said..
I have some very old DaKine adjustable harness lines and I'd like to get some new fixed lines. Mine are pretty floppy so they tend to twist which can make it hard to hook in. When I place the middle of my palm on the boom, the ends loop around my elbow and the distance from the boom to the loop is about 13.5". Double that and I'm basically at 28". The thing I don't get is that long lines are relatively popular and 28" is on the longer side of the median offerings. However, I'm not very big or tall, I'm about 5'5" / 166 cm. So it seems odd to me that I might be ordering longish harness lines. Can anyone confirm that 28" is reasonable for someone my size?


Im your size and that sounds about what I use. Maybe mine are a bit longer.
I have adjustable. I've started using a 7m NCX on my waveboard and with the boom at the bottom of the cut out it's still too high ( chin height ) so I extend them out.This is in .on and off the plane conditions with a more upright stance than slalom.

elmo
WA, 8019 posts
4 Feb 2020 8:52AM
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I feel an important question should be

Waist or seat harness?

SongofWind
10 posts
4 Feb 2020 10:09AM
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Boom at shoulders height, seat harness, 22" lines, much easier upwind, less tiring

shmish
23 posts
4 Feb 2020 11:58AM
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Select to expand quote
elmo said..
I feel an important question should be

Waist or seat harness?


I bought a waist harness this year, whereas I had a seat harness before. I didn't adjust the line length. I haven't used the waist harness much yet. That would explain part of the reason why my lines are at 28". Now that I think about it, I never experimented with shortening them after getting the waist harness because of the very old knots and kinks in the line.

boardsurfr
WA, 994 posts
4 Feb 2020 12:01PM
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See if can get Duotone adjustable harness lines. They are just about as stiff as fixed lines, and definitely don't twist like many adjustable lines are likely to do. They are also surprisingly affordable, can easily be shortened and lengthened while sailing, and can be put on and taken off without taking the boom apart. Those are by far the best adjustable lines I have ever used. They have 2 or 3 different size ranges; the shorter ones (22-28 in) should work for you. Fully extended, they are about the same length as 30 in fixed Chinook lines.

Sometimes, it's quite useful to be able to adjust harness line length - for example lengthen the lines in chop, and shorten them on flat water (or when foiling). Adjustable lines may also be more likely to break in a catapult, which is a great thing - if something has gotta give, harness lines are the cheapest thing to break. If they don't break, chances of making hard contact with your mast or boom are increased. The old Chinook race lines were great in this respect; I don't know yet if the Duotone lines also break, though.

Sea Lotus
92 posts
5 Feb 2020 8:41PM
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I am 165cm, i used to use 32", i had my but slapped by waves all the time, now i started to use 28" and its better. 30" might be perfect but haven't tried it yet. Lines are Severne fixed, seems to be shorter than Gunsails lines. I use waist harness.

I put my elbow at lines, then i can touch the boom with the end of my palm (where my fingers start).

Basher
158 posts
6 Feb 2020 5:15AM
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There are some good replies here and then there are those answers from people still using old stance - and that's why advice varies so much on this topic.

Whatever length lines you are happy with is good - but take some time to understand why there's still so much variation - and it's to do with the rise and fall of boom height with your chosen/preferred stance. .

'New stance' is where the rig is set more upright and that means the mast foot is set nearer the board tail and your front foot is nearer the mast. Once you shift the mast back or the front straps forward then you need longer lines because you're no longer sitting under the rig with the mast raked back.
Instead, you are standing more upright on the board and better able to manoeuvre both the sail and board. The modern stance is one where your body is mostly straight and the rig is held at arms reach. (This stance is commonly known as the perfect 7 stance, because your body and arms look like a 7 when viewed from the front. )

With this topic, people frequently mistakenly talk about hook height, assuming a seat harness needs longer lines than a waist harness, but in fact with upright stance the hook height makes little different to harness line length. When you view the sailor in perfect 7 stance from the front the hook is simply on a radius fixed by line length.

Once you are in this upright stance the maximum line length is a simple function of your arm length, and for normal or average height people the maximum is about 32inches, with tall people on 34inch lines. With 28inches your arms can be more bent. Any shorter and your probably choking the rig.

I'm 5ft 6inch tall and use a low boom but I'm on 32 inch lines. I never use the front half of the mast tack on any wave board.


With bigger sails, such as used on longboards and slalom gear then this issue can get more complicated - simply because the rise and fall of the boom height is greater when sailing that sort of gear - with the boom lowering a lot more from slogging position to fully planing in the straps and, say, driving slalom gear off the fin. You can feel more secure when sitting in the lavatory position when driving a big rig, but the top slalom guys still use pretty long lines.
With a longboard is gets more complicated because you have a sliding mast track and often have multiple footstrap positions.

PhilUK
19 posts
6 Feb 2020 5:50PM
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Select to expand quote
shmish said..
I have some very old DaKine adjustable harness lines and I'd like to get some new fixed lines. Mine are pretty floppy so they tend to twist which can make it hard to hook in. When I place the middle of my palm on the boom, the ends loop around my elbow and the distance from the boom to the loop is about 13.5". Double that and I'm basically at 28". The thing I don't get is that long lines are relatively popular and 28" is on the longer side of the median offerings. However, I'm not very big or tall, I'm about 5'5" / 166 cm. So it seems odd to me that I might be ordering longish harness lines. Can anyone confirm that 28" is reasonable for someone my size?


The palm on the boom line ends round the elbow sounds about right to me. It doesn't sound too short given your height. If that's what you are comfortable with stick with that. Perhaps try them a few times adjusted longer to make sure.

PhilUK
19 posts
6 Feb 2020 6:09PM
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Select to expand quote
Basher said..
There are some good replies here and then there are those answers from people still using old stance - and that's why advice varies so much on this topic.

Whatever length lines you are happy with is good - but take some time to understand why there's still so much variation - and it's to do with the rise and fall of boom height with your chosen/preferred stance. .

'New stance' is where the rig is set more upright and that means the mast foot is set nearer the board tail and your front foot is nearer the mast. Once you shift the mast back or the front straps forward then you need longer lines because you're no longer sitting under the rig with the mast raked back.
Instead, you are standing more upright on the board and better able to manoeuvre both the sail and board. The modern stance is one where your body is mostly straight and the rig is held at arms reach. (This stance is commonly known as the perfect 7 stance, because your body and arms look like a 7 when viewed from the front. )

With this topic, people frequently mistakenly talk about hook height, assuming a seat harness needs longer lines than a waist harness, but in fact with upright stance the hook height makes little different to harness line length. When you view the sailor in perfect 7 stance from the front the hook is simply on a radius fixed by line length.

Once you are in this upright stance the maximum line length is a simple function of your arm length, and for normal or average height people the maximum is about 32inches, with tall people on 34inch lines. With 28inches your arms can be more bent. Any shorter and your probably choking the rig.

I'm 5ft 6inch tall and use a low boom but I'm on 32 inch lines. I never use the front half of the mast tack on any wave board.


With bigger sails, such as used on longboards and slalom gear then this issue can get more complicated - simply because the rise and fall of the boom height is greater when sailing that sort of gear - with the boom lowering a lot more from slogging position to fully planing in the straps and, say, driving slalom gear off the fin. You can feel more secure when sitting in the lavatory position when driving a big rig, but the top slalom guys still use pretty long lines.
With a longboard is gets more complicated because you have a sliding mast track and often have multiple footstrap positions.





I bought a waist harness last year, having previously always used a seat, for use with sails under 6m when the water is rougher. My 32" lines were too long. I bought some adjustable lines, but they were floppy and one side didnt always stay at the intended length. So I used some older 28cm lines I had in the garage. They felt ok to start whilst I got used to the waist harness but now feel a bit short. I've found some older 30" lines in the garage so will give them a go. My boom is lower when I use the waist harness.

Basher says:
"With this topic, people frequently mistakenly talk about hook height, assuming a seat harness needs longer lines than a waist harness, but in fact with upright stance the hook height makes little different to harness line length. When you view the sailor in perfect 7 stance from the front the hook is simply on a radius fixed by line length."

I've seen that written elsewhere as well. That makes sense if your torso is in line with the legs in the "perfect 7" stance as the hook is higher up the body, so it will be a bit further away from the boom. In the recent thread about stance www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Extending-arms?page=1#22
you can see the difference in recent pictures where the "perfect 7" was used in 2005 but no longer. So if the torso is upright and the waist harness hook is higher up the body then you need shorter lines. For freeriding the same. Well I dont use it when well powered. The only time I use it is going upwind or when under powered.

For wave sailing, have a look at Philip Koster here, 1:58 in. He starts out on the inside with lighter wind, legs and torso in line "perfect 7" style, but as he gets some wind the hips sink, bends at the hips, and the torso is upright, ready for jumps and tricks.
?t=103
Thats Pozo last year. If you look at the PWA site for the event the livestreams are available. The 1st in the list is the under 17s in lighter winds, and there doesnt seem to be many "perfect 7" stances.

At Sylt in lighter winds there is more of a "perfect 7" stance, 9'44 in.
?t=591

The other thread ended with the conclusion"Using analysis of forces and their application, one could come up with an ideal stance for speed in the perfect set of conditions. But conditions are never perfect or constant and compromises have to be made for control and lots of other reasons. That is why perspectives and emphasis on skills varies."

Same here. Adapt stance for conditions.

MarkSSC
QLD, 380 posts
6 Feb 2020 11:07PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
PhilUK said..

Basher said..
There are some good replies here and then there are those answers from people still using old stance - and that's why advice varies so much on this topic.

Whatever length lines you are happy with is good - but take some time to understand why there's still so much variation - and it's to do with the rise and fall of boom height with your chosen/preferred stance. .

'New stance' is where the rig is set more upright and that means the mast foot is set nearer the board tail and your front foot is nearer the mast. Once you shift the mast back or the front straps forward then you need longer lines because you're no longer sitting under the rig with the mast raked back.
Instead, you are standing more upright on the board and better able to manoeuvre both the sail and board. The modern stance is one where your body is mostly straight and the rig is held at arms reach. (This stance is commonly known as the perfect 7 stance, because your body and arms look like a 7 when viewed from the front. )

With this topic, people frequently mistakenly talk about hook height, assuming a seat harness needs longer lines than a waist harness, but in fact with upright stance the hook height makes little different to harness line length. When you view the sailor in perfect 7 stance from the front the hook is simply on a radius fixed by line length.

Once you are in this upright stance the maximum line length is a simple function of your arm length, and for normal or average height people the maximum is about 32inches, with tall people on 34inch lines. With 28inches your arms can be more bent. Any shorter and your probably choking the rig.

I'm 5ft 6inch tall and use a low boom but I'm on 32 inch lines. I never use the front half of the mast tack on any wave board.


With bigger sails, such as used on longboards and slalom gear then this issue can get more complicated - simply because the rise and fall of the boom height is greater when sailing that sort of gear - with the boom lowering a lot more from slogging position to fully planing in the straps and, say, driving slalom gear off the fin. You can feel more secure when sitting in the lavatory position when driving a big rig, but the top slalom guys still use pretty long lines.
With a longboard is gets more complicated because you have a sliding mast track and often have multiple footstrap positions.






I bought a waist harness last year, having previously always used a seat, for use with sails under 6m when the water is rougher. My 32" lines were too long. I bought some adjustable lines, but they were floppy and one side didnt always stay at the intended length. So I used some older 28cm lines I had in the garage. They felt ok to start whilst I got used to the waist harness but now feel a bit short. I've found some older 30" lines in the garage so will give them a go. My boom is lower when I use the waist harness.

Basher says:
"With this topic, people frequently mistakenly talk about hook height, assuming a seat harness needs longer lines than a waist harness, but in fact with upright stance the hook height makes little different to harness line length. When you view the sailor in perfect 7 stance from the front the hook is simply on a radius fixed by line length."

I've seen that written elsewhere as well. That makes sense if your torso is in line with the legs in the "perfect 7" stance as the hook is higher up the body, so it will be a bit further away from the boom. In the recent thread about stance www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Extending-arms?page=1#22
you can see the difference in recent pictures where the "perfect 7" was used in 2005 but no longer. So if the torso is upright and the waist harness hook is higher up the body then you need shorter lines. For freeriding the same. Well I dont use it when well powered. The only time I use it is going upwind or when under powered.

For wave sailing, have a look at Philip Koster here, 1:58 in. He starts out on the inside with lighter wind, legs and torso in line "perfect 7" style, but as he gets some wind the hips sink, bends at the hips, and the torso is upright, ready for jumps and tricks.
?t=103
Thats Pozo last year. If you look at the PWA site for the event the livestreams are available. The 1st in the list is the under 17s in lighter winds, and there doesnt seem to be many "perfect 7" stances.

At Sylt in lighter winds there is more of a "perfect 7" stance, 9'44 in.
?t=591

The other thread ended with the conclusion"Using analysis of forces and their application, one could come up with an ideal stance for speed in the perfect set of conditions. But conditions are never perfect or constant and compromises have to be made for control and lots of other reasons. That is why perspectives and emphasis on skills varies."

Same here. Adapt stance for conditions.


The stance may also vary according to the type of board and position of the footstraps. Freestyle boards can be sailed differently to slalom boards, so the stance may appear to be different. Guy Cribbs articles suggest that the modern style is to have a more upright rig with longer harness lines. Where I sail there is a mixture of both methods, so there would appear to be some merit in using the system that is best suited to your individual style.

Sea Lotus
92 posts
6 Feb 2020 9:22PM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Harness tightness shortens lines.
Loose harness lengthens lines.


If thats true, then boom thickness olso effects line length of same line on different booms.

Sea Lotus
92 posts
6 Feb 2020 9:35PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
MarkSSC said..

PhilUK said..


Basher said..
There are some good replies here and then there are those answers from people still using old stance - and that's why advice varies so much on this topic.

Whatever length lines you are happy with is good - but take some time to understand why there's still so much variation - and it's to do with the rise and fall of boom height with your chosen/preferred stance. .

'New stance' is where the rig is set more upright and that means the mast foot is set nearer the board tail and your front foot is nearer the mast. Once you shift the mast back or the front straps forward then you need longer lines because you're no longer sitting under the rig with the mast raked back.
Instead, you are standing more upright on the board and better able to manoeuvre both the sail and board. The modern stance is one where your body is mostly straight and the rig is held at arms reach. (This stance is commonly known as the perfect 7 stance, because your body and arms look like a 7 when viewed from the front. )

With this topic, people frequently mistakenly talk about hook height, assuming a seat harness needs longer lines than a waist harness, but in fact with upright stance the hook height makes little different to harness line length. When you view the sailor in perfect 7 stance from the front the hook is simply on a radius fixed by line length.

Once you are in this upright stance the maximum line length is a simple function of your arm length, and for normal or average height people the maximum is about 32inches, with tall people on 34inch lines. With 28inches your arms can be more bent. Any shorter and your probably choking the rig.

I'm 5ft 6inch tall and use a low boom but I'm on 32 inch lines. I never use the front half of the mast tack on any wave board.


With bigger sails, such as used on longboards and slalom gear then this issue can get more complicated - simply because the rise and fall of the boom height is greater when sailing that sort of gear - with the boom lowering a lot more from slogging position to fully planing in the straps and, say, driving slalom gear off the fin. You can feel more secure when sitting in the lavatory position when driving a big rig, but the top slalom guys still use pretty long lines.
With a longboard is gets more complicated because you have a sliding mast track and often have multiple footstrap positions.







I bought a waist harness last year, having previously always used a seat, for use with sails under 6m when the water is rougher. My 32" lines were too long. I bought some adjustable lines, but they were floppy and one side didnt always stay at the intended length. So I used some older 28cm lines I had in the garage. They felt ok to start whilst I got used to the waist harness but now feel a bit short. I've found some older 30" lines in the garage so will give them a go. My boom is lower when I use the waist harness.

Basher says:
"With this topic, people frequently mistakenly talk about hook height, assuming a seat harness needs longer lines than a waist harness, but in fact with upright stance the hook height makes little different to harness line length. When you view the sailor in perfect 7 stance from the front the hook is simply on a radius fixed by line length."

I've seen that written elsewhere as well. That makes sense if your torso is in line with the legs in the "perfect 7" stance as the hook is higher up the body, so it will be a bit further away from the boom. In the recent thread about stance www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Extending-arms?page=1#22
you can see the difference in recent pictures where the "perfect 7" was used in 2005 but no longer. So if the torso is upright and the waist harness hook is higher up the body then you need shorter lines. For freeriding the same. Well I dont use it when well powered. The only time I use it is going upwind or when under powered.

For wave sailing, have a look at Philip Koster here, 1:58 in. He starts out on the inside with lighter wind, legs and torso in line "perfect 7" style, but as he gets some wind the hips sink, bends at the hips, and the torso is upright, ready for jumps and tricks.
?t=103
Thats Pozo last year. If you look at the PWA site for the event the livestreams are available. The 1st in the list is the under 17s in lighter winds, and there doesnt seem to be many "perfect 7" stances.

At Sylt in lighter winds there is more of a "perfect 7" stance, 9'44 in.
?t=591

The other thread ended with the conclusion"Using analysis of forces and their application, one could come up with an ideal stance for speed in the perfect set of conditions. But conditions are never perfect or constant and compromises have to be made for control and lots of other reasons. That is why perspectives and emphasis on skills varies."

Same here. Adapt stance for conditions.



The stance may also vary according to the type of board and position of the footstraps. Freestyle boards can be sailed differently to slalom boards, so the stance may appear to be different. Guy Cribbs articles suggest that the modern style is to have a more upright rig with longer harness lines. Where I sail there is a mixture of both methods, so there would appear to be some merit in using the system that is best suited to your individual style.


I hunch down and move weight back bend back leg at gusts, "7"ish at normal cruising, "7" but with a little bent front leg and weight forward at lulls.
I olso stay at 7 out of straps near mast to slow down and rest while slowly moving upwind.

Similar thing applies to downwind and upwind direction, hunch down going downwind and 7 going upwind.

robbo1111
NSW, 507 posts
7 Feb 2020 7:17AM
Thumbs Up

The longer the lines the less frequent and less painful the catapults, and if you're wearing a waist harness the less it will ride up



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"Harness line length" started by shmish