Forums > Windsurfing General

How Fast in Chop?

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Created by Gorgo > 9 months ago, 30 Nov 2016
Ian K
NSW, 2874 posts
1 Dec 2016 6:29AM
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mr love said..
Define chop


If we could define various categories of chop we'd open up a whole new ballpark of speedsailing. It'd be hugely popular. But all chop is different, swell, fetch, reflections off reefs all mixed in. I don't think it's possible to determine the level the playing fields.
It's a pity to have speedsailing stuck in the shallows but there's no way out.

choco
SA, 3437 posts
1 Dec 2016 6:13AM
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Anders Bringdal at 40.2 Knots breaks Maui Open Ocean Speed Sailing Record – Again
Maui, HI — With steady winds in the 30-35 knot range Anders Bringdal became
the first to break 40 Knots in the 3rd session of the Maui GPS V-Max Challenge.
After setting a new mark of 39.6 kts the previous day Anders was perfectly
tuned to take full advantage of the conditions.He used the same setup,5.2 Naish
Stealth 08 pre-production sail, 54 cm wide AB+ board and 24 cm asymmetrical
AB+ fin. Both board and fin are from Anders own company.
Read more at boards.co.uk/news/2260-anders-bringdal-breaks-maui-open-ocean-speed-record-again.html#zYKYjSiX8aj7k5Ot.99

Ezric
NSW, 180 posts
1 Dec 2016 8:30AM
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I'd like to see the GPS tracks on the open ocean course in Maui. The link; mauivmax.blogspot.com.au/ shows photos of them doing the speed run down the inside of the reef which does have smooth water between the waves in the shallows if you line it up right. Still an amazing achievement but I don't think it is out in the open ocean chop(beyond the surf), judging by the website.
There is just too many variables between sailing sites. Best to get yourself a GPS and compare your speeds with other peoples tracks on KA72, at the same locations in similar conditions.

azymuth
WA, 666 posts
1 Dec 2016 6:35AM
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Ian K said..






mr love said..
Define chop








If we could define various categories of chop we'd open up a whole new ballpark of speedsailing. It'd be hugely popular. But all chop is different, swell, fetch, reflections off reefs all mixed in. I don't think it's possible to determine the level the playing fields.
It's a pity to have speedsailing stuck in the shallows but there's no way out.




Agree with Ian - perhaps we simply acknowledge slow and fast ocean (deep water) spots.
In Perth I reckon Pinnaroo and South Freo are slow - Leighton, Woodies and Safety Bay are fast.

A benefit of chasing speed on the ocean compared to flat water is you need less wind. 20 to 25 knots is enough. You might choose to sail at a faster beach but competitive flat water speedsailing seems restricted to certain spots too.

AFAIK Slowy (surprise) tops the 2 sec at Leighton with 36 knots, a few others with 34's.

I reckon a 30 Ocean Deep Water NM is a great yardstick - even at the easiest ocean spots

JJ

Faff
VIC, 660 posts
1 Dec 2016 8:37AM
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Ian K said..

mr love said..
Define chop



If we could define various categories of chop we'd open up a whole new ballpark of speedsailing. It'd be hugely popular. But all chop is different, swell, fetch, reflections off reefs all mixed in. I don't think it's possible to determine the level the playing fields.
It's a pity to have speedsailing stuck in the shallows but there's no way out.


Port Philip - "confused chop" and swell. Inverloch - egg carton chop.

Roo
640 posts
1 Dec 2016 6:46AM
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Going fast in chop is all about commitment and big balls. It's the most exhilarating type of speedsailing and to do it really well you are always on the edge of control and could stack at any moment. The key is reading the water and working out the fast track through the bumps, a few degrees difference in wind angle can line everything up and give you an extra couple of knots. In the Gorge when the west wind is a blowing we get every type of chop imaginable in the space of 1 km. You've got wind against current, ground swell, cross chop and shoal chop, every direction and all in the space of one run. Get it right and you can pull 37 to 38 knot peaks and it makes you feel alive!

srtgumbee
89 posts
1 Dec 2016 6:58AM
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Here is Tom Hammerton (sail designer for Hotsails maui) doing a speed run in Maui:



I believe this is the speedsurfing log of the sailing session: www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=42169&uid=2626

Although this is not a record breaking or a PB run, it gives an idea of the conditions they sail in.


sboardcrazy
NSW, 6598 posts
1 Dec 2016 1:07PM
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Belly25 said...
I'm with Lyds on this one. The other day I was out on an underpowered Hucker having a bit of bump and jump fun. Steve Walsh was on the same tack about 200 metres back, thought I'd try and stay ahead of him, lasted about 10 seconds, he came whistling past me (literally thanks to his North Platinum Boom that is prone to make loud noises at high speed) like I was standing still.
The goal right now is to see who is going to crack 40knots on Lake Macquarie first. It's a 3 horse race between Walshy, B-Mac, and Hugo (sorry Andy)
I love Budgewoi but flying over clean, cool water, nothing better

Im waiting for the day when I can get comfortable in chop again and do decent gybes..

decrepit
WA, 9237 posts
1 Dec 2016 12:12PM
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Well I'm a very average sailor, being 379th on the GTC 2sec all time ladder. Here's my 31kt open ocean tracks.



I've since improved this by a knot or so, but can't remember when.

I think this would be classed as "fast ocean", you can see the lines of swell bend around here to be parallel to a great bear off angle, so it's more like a rollacoaster ride than a chop bash. Until you hit the estuary outflow that is, then it turns into moguls! A NM here wouldn't be very fast.

I'm sure a one of Perth's better sailors could get very close to 40 here in ideal conditions.


decrepit
WA, 9237 posts
1 Dec 2016 12:17PM
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And here's the NM challenge,
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/WA-Nm-Challenge/?SearchTerms=leighton,nautical,mile
Leighton is open ocean, looks like somebody got a 38 there, probably hit over 40 to manage that.

azymuth
WA, 666 posts
1 Dec 2016 12:38PM
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^^^

Looks fishy - perhaps AA on a secret mission?

AUS 808
WA, 226 posts
1 Dec 2016 12:45PM
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decrepit said..
And here's the NM challenge,
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/WA-Nm-Challenge/?SearchTerms=leighton,nautical,mile
Leighton is open ocean, looks like somebody got a 38 there, probably hit over 40 to manage that.


Just a combination of a dodgy GPS Watch & KA72

AUS1111
WA, 3329 posts
1 Dec 2016 2:07PM
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azymuth said..
^^^

Looks fishy - perhaps AA on a secret mission?


Yep - I don't buy it either. Nobody can sail 38 knots on the NM at Leighton. Who is sailor C anyway??

sailquik
VIC, 4669 posts
1 Dec 2016 8:42PM
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Magic Ride said..
If you really wanna know if your GPS is accurate, test it in your car against your speedometer. I did that with mine, plus against my Garmin GPS in my truck and everything matched up. So I know Mytracks is an accurate source.


Define 'accurate'.

(Rolling about holding my sides and laughing my arse off!)

Magic Ride
719 posts
1 Dec 2016 7:44PM
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Sailquick,

How much more accuracy do you want? Lol

decrepit
WA, 9237 posts
1 Dec 2016 8:08PM
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Magic Ride said..
Sailquick,

How much more accuracy do you want? Lol


Obviously a lot more than the average car speedo.
I've no idea what happens in the states, but here it's legislated that speedos can overestimate by, I think 5% (or is it 10% ?) as long as they don't underestimate.
Over here we calibrate our speedos with a gps, that lets you know how fast you can really go with out getting a ticket.

Spotty
VIC, 1292 posts
2 Dec 2016 12:10AM
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Sailing low 30's in certain chop can feel like 40, and takes what Roo mentioned above and a lot of practice at your local to be constantly picking a line whilst managing moments of on the edge of control. I never thought doing 40knots on the bay in onshore chop at Rye was possible let alone a 37 500m & 35.7 NM.

at this point I was doing ~37...

Magic Ride
719 posts
1 Dec 2016 10:25PM
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Decrepit,

If you recall, I also wrote that my Speedometer and garman GPS also matched up with Mytracks as well. That's two different sources. Do I need to buy an Acura to prove my point to you?

boardsurfr
WA, 808 posts
1 Dec 2016 10:26PM
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I have a hard time even dreaming about going as fast as Spotty .. but that looks pretty flat to me!

boardsurfr
WA, 808 posts
1 Dec 2016 10:39PM
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Magic Ride said..
Decrepit,

If you recall, I also wrote that my Speedometer and garman GPS also matched up with Mytracks as well. That's two different sources. Do I need to buy an Acura to provoke my point to you?


Smiley faces don't make an offensive message funny. Using two devices that are known to be inaccurate can never prove that a third device is accurate. All you get is that the accuracy may be similar - from a single run, change the "may" to a "might". If you'd do your test with a GPSLogit phone, you'd come to the same conclusion. If you do a more careful test against more accurate devices, you find that many phones overstate speed by about 1 mph.

If you want to get an idea if your top speed is somewhat real, load the data into GPSResults or GPS Action Replay, and compare your 5x10 speed against your 2 second speed. Your 5x10 should be within a knot or two of your 2 second speed (check gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2016-11-30&team=12 and other team sessions for examples). If the difference is bigger, your "top speed" may just be an artifact.

Magic Ride
719 posts
1 Dec 2016 10:52PM
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Didnt mean to upset you, but Just for sh!ts n giggles, I tested mytracks just now to my girlfriend's car, which is brand new, and my Dad's car, and mytracks is still dead on. Why don't you down load the app and check it for yourself to see its accuracy. You will be very surprised. I can't seem to prove that mytracks is not accurate. That must say something for the product right? I can tell you, if mytracks wasn't accurate, I wouldn't be using it.

Roo
640 posts
2 Dec 2016 12:43AM
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Going fast in chop is fantastic training for doing it on flatwater. It builds up leg strength and teaches you to do minute adjustments to maximise speed in an instant whilst reading the water conditions. Also the feeling of being on the edge of the envelope gets rid of the fear factor and prepares you to be maxed out on the speed course. It opens up a huge number of locations for going fast so you're not always waiting for the perfect day on billiard table smooth water. Using the speech function on GPSLogit is a great help and one of the best ways to improve your speed in chop or flatwater. Add in your favorite music track for inspiration and you'll be a chop hero in no time. Arriba, Arriba! Andale as Speedy Gonzales would say.

[Img][/Img]

mr love
VIC, 1778 posts
2 Dec 2016 5:24AM
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Magic Ride said..
Didnt mean to upset you, but Just for sh!ts n giggles, I tested mytracks just now to my girlfriend's car, which is brand new, and my Dad's car, and mytracks is still dead on. Why don't you down load the app and check it for yourself to see its accuracy. You will be very surprised. I can't seem to prove that mytracks is not accurate. That must say something for the product right? I can tell you, if mytracks wasn't accurate, I wouldn't be using it.



Car speedos generally overestimate and can do by 8% so I would not be trusting that to check your GPS speed accuracy.

Sailing fast in chop is a buz and something I really enjoy, why I have been on a quest for the last few years to design boards that can be fast in rough conditions. The reason I asked " define chop" though is that there is chop and there is CHOP. I often see posts where people say "way too choppy today for speed", then see some photographs and think...well if that is choppy I would love to see what they describe as flat water. I can't see how we could have any sort of "open water" categories for speed as the conditions vary so enormously.
That said...get out there and try to go fast in rough water, it is a huge Buz and as Roo describes really improves many aspects of your sailing and definitely makes you faster when you do get on flat water.

35 knots at Pookipa this Summer is my challenge to myself . Sounds lame but will be really hard to do and %^&*( scary!!! Love it.

Magic Ride
719 posts
2 Dec 2016 4:30AM
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I hear ya, I love blasting around to see how fast I can go. It's an adrenaline rush, no questions asked. I remember I was at Odel Lake, Or and the wind was cranking, and I was on my 6.0 sail just scooting across the water. The wind chop was 4-5 feet tall that day, so everything I did had to be done carefully and dailed in, because any mishaps will throw ya overboard. Well I hit some chop at a slightly different angle than anticipated and it threw me over my board into a catipult. As soon As I landed in the water, I said oh sh!t!! As soon As I looked at my board and found no damage I started laughing. What a day.

Windsurfing is my addition, this is what I live for. I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way.




This is Odel Lake on a calmer day, beautiful place to sail.


Then of course Klamath Lake, below is my favorate spot, 5 minutes away from me, and the largest lake in Oregon.




LeeD
536 posts
2 Dec 2016 5:19AM
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Any of you catch the video of the Austrian windsurfer Tomas trying to sail around Cape Horn in Argentina?
Ben Van der Steen was one of the sailors, along with another former World Cup Slalom sailor.
I think they could have made it, but Tomas wasn't up to the task, getting really sick and giving up, while Ben and the other guy seem to have few problems, sailing along just fine, jibing back to keep an eye on Tomas. Partway through the journey, a Southerly swell came up to mix in with the prevaling WSW swell, and the chop caused the support boat to rock like a motor boat, instead of leaning like a sailboat that it was...another problem.
Anyways, they used 6 meter slalom race sails and medium wind slalom boards. Probably should have used floaty FSW type boards to handle the big seas, wind chop, and confused swells.
Sorry, just something I watched yesterday on TV.
A couple of my buds sailed from AgateBeach in Marin County California to North Farallon Islands, a trip of around 23 miles one way, in the spring, in 7-12' wind waves from the prevailing NW winds of 17-28 mph. They've tried it more than 5 times, finishing the journey once.

LeeD
536 posts
2 Dec 2016 5:26AM
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Oh sorry...
Friend of mine used to sail a Seatrend 8'6" from Kalala to Molokai, and even attempted a landing once, but the breeze was blocked on the SW shore.
I sailed out with him once on a Haut 8'10" until I could just see the hills of Molokai, then chickened out and turned around barely finding the Kahala Hilton Hotel once I neared Diamond Head. That was a particularly calm state of the seas, and he arrived back around 3 hours later after claiming he sailed right up to Lanai.
I was sailing as slow as possible, maybe 17 mph, weaving between the swells and chop, and I doubt I'd want to exceed 25 mph in waters that are 6,000 feet deep.

Shifu
QLD, 1201 posts
2 Dec 2016 7:53AM
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Here's the Redcliffe Speed Strip. If your spot is not like this it's not really choppy:









Mastbender
1901 posts
2 Dec 2016 6:13AM
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Where we sail in the ocean, (about half way between Los Angles and San Francisco, Ca.) we have a kelp bed that starts about 300 meters out from the beach, and then extends about another 400 meters out, with a gap in the middle. In the middle of that is a gap which is almost perfectly perpendicular to the prevailing wind, is what we call the BB run (see the red line in the pic) which is a speed run. In the pic, taken during the spring when the kelp bed thin due to the large winter swells, that kelp bed will get very thick, but we keep the down wind side of it trimmed off using our fins. As the kelp bed fills in, we will make a long straight line like a trimmed hedge, then we sail right up next to that trimmed edge for the length of the run. We will try to keep the upwind rail of our boards almost touching the edge of the kelp, with our bodies hanging out over it, the speeds we reach become unbelievably fun. We call it the BB run because it feels like our boards are skimming along on top of BBs, tiny chop about 1" tall making the boards hum with vibration. All this going on while the surrounding area could be totally choppy with white caps about 3 to 4 feet tall while blowing 25 to 30, but not in the BB run thanks to that kelp bed.
If you look carefully, you can see one windsurfer going out just past the waves, to give you a sense of scale.
We have no idea how fast we are going, we are all on wave boards (around 85 lts.) and wave sails, but we all feel that we are going about as fast as our equipment will allow, serious fun when there are no waves on the inside, speed tears fun. But even if there is a large swell it will still be fun going over big wide rollers out there, going just as fast.

Magic Ride
719 posts
2 Dec 2016 6:46AM
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Mastbender,

Is this Leo Carrillo you're talking about? I used to windsurf their before I moved to Oregon.

LeeD
536 posts
2 Dec 2016 7:44AM
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Good catch!
It's Beach, just around the corner from SteamerLane, has the same setup, a kelp bed keeping the chop down to glassy conditions, while 20-27 mph winds can make most of the sailing area a bump and jump playground.
But I think sailing in ocean chop is really more about sailing much farther outside the kelp beds, in deeper waters, like sailing from Gladstones to in front of Manhattan Beach, but 4 miles off the shore line.



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"How Fast in Chop?" started by Gorgo