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Importance of team rider for sail development?

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Created by Nubie > 9 months ago, 7 Apr 2019
Nubie
70 posts
7 Apr 2019 3:32PM
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C7: How important are team riders and a professional world tour for a brand?

David Ezzy: Team riders are not very important for product development. Over the last 30 years, I've worked with a lot of big names and my sails have held many world titles. But through all that sail testing, only a few times have I been able to translate a team riders wants into anything useful design-wise. But I think I am in a different situation than most of the other sail designers because I windsurf practically every day either in the waves at Hookipa or flat-water at Kanaha. A lot of the other designers don't windsurf (or don't windsurf very much), so they might find rider feedback more useful. I am the first one to test every Ezzy sail.

www.continentseven.com/david-ezzy-interview/

Riders dont know nothing about aerodynamics/physics but isnt their feedback also important?
What do you think?

sailquik
VIC, 6066 posts
7 Apr 2019 6:40PM
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Good question.

I think trying to get an average answer would be like my mate Barney said about trying to describe the average Professor: "A professor is a human being who on average has one breast, one ovary and one testicle."

foolonhill
8 posts
7 Apr 2019 5:16PM
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I really guess it's all about the rider in charge of development. The best ones are able to put themselves in our average joe's shoes. They can forecast what will be good or bad for the guy who will buy the product and adapt their demands to the designer.
Some only think for their performance and personal feeling, even if the way they trim and sail is completely weird or extreme and no one will use the final product like they do.
This can lead to niche products, frustrating for most of the customers and as member of a test team (french mag), I think it still does happen sometime. But in any case, the good relationship between the rider and the designer/shaper is vital for getting a good product. Better no rider than a bad relation.

Nubie
70 posts
7 Apr 2019 5:16PM
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Can Lewis Hamilton design F1 car? NO
He can give feedback to his engineer who use this informations to improve car performanse.

But feedbacks are subjective things and can be different between riders,so here begins problem.(hmm maybe Ezzy is right)

On the end only "stopwatch" will tell if modifications on F1car are good ot not.

But where is "stopwatch" in windsurfing ?

Imax1
QLD, 4520 posts
7 Apr 2019 7:51PM
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I think for the pinnacle of development , pros input would be way better than mine and absolutely nessisary.
For joe average , ( that's me ) , my opinion would probably be a good thing . If a brand got ten of average me at different weights and averaged up our ideas we would come up with development that would souit 90 % of riders , and 90% of sales.
Unfortunately a pic of me doing my thing won't inspire many sales

PS : what ever happened to that modern sexy red full Dacron reaching sail I saw here a couple years ago ? I can't remember who was trying to make it .. It was sex on wheels . I'd buy that !

Madge
NSW, 469 posts
7 Apr 2019 7:56PM
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Very good point from Dave Ezzy but I recon that it all depends on the rider and their personal input and where they want to sell the sails, the European market and American markets like to see the stars from those country's competing etc.

second point is the way F1 works. A test drive isn't any good if they can't relay the correct info to the race engineers so test driving is exceptionally important and most test drivers are ex race drivers but just don't want to compete any more or are more useful to the team as a tester.

A lot of company's these days have really good sailors that don't compete but are really good at getting the info to the designer, what changes could be made etc.

I do recon Mr Ezzy is wrong about the designer not sailing, Kai from norths was a fine sailor in his time, RRD use John Skye who until recently was on the tour. Naish, well say no more everyone there sails.

Nubie
70 posts
7 Apr 2019 7:21PM
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Madge said..
I do recon Mr Ezzy is wrong about the designer not sailing, Kai from norths was a fine sailor in his time, RRD use John Skye who until recently was on the tour. Naish, well say no more everyone there sails.


I do not think that designer must sail.I think that is most important that they know about aerodynamics,also desing sail does not mean that you are good tailor,sewing is just way how sail is made..
Which designer study aerodynamics university or something similar?

In F1 is diffrent,you can not be baker or ex driver who develop "front wing" for Ferrari..You must be engineer.
Even they never sit in F1 car they do they job very good because they spent years at university to learn this knowledge.

So I think knowledge is the key.

Subsonic
WA, 2956 posts
7 Apr 2019 9:33PM
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Nubie said..


Madge said..
I do recon Mr Ezzy is wrong about the designer not sailing, Kai from norths was a fine sailor in his time, RRD use John Skye who until recently was on the tour. Naish, well say no more everyone there sails.




I do not think that designer must sail.I think that is most important that they know about aerodynamics,also desing sail does not mean that you are good tailor,sewing is just way how sail is made..
Which designer study aerodynamics university or something similar?

In F1 is diffrent,you can not be baker or ex driver who develop "front wing" for Ferrari..You must be engineer.
Even they never sit in F1 car they do they job very good because they spent years at university to learn this knowledge.

So I think knowledge is the key.



I know of at least one designer who has his team do thorough testing of designs/ concepts. He's an extremely good and multi talented sailor, but he will quite happily give a proto to a trusted local to try out/give feedback on. Especially if the sail is for a discipline that is not his forte. The proto sails that come back looking like a flogged out rag move forward in the design process. The proto's that come back still looking crisp, not so much.

The designer being a sailor most certainly is of benefit. An engineer might have the know how to make an efficient aerodynamic shape, but it has to interact with a board and rider. What looks good on paper sometimes doesn't make for a user friendly product.

Nubie
70 posts
7 Apr 2019 10:01PM
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Subsonic said

What looks good on paper sometimes doesn't make for a user friendly product.




If you give today slalom boards,wide,paralel outlines,hard rails etc to riders in 1990,they will say that board is very brutal to sail/jibe...
But sometimes riders must adapt to new stuff in purpose of performance.

In theory wide slalom board will allways outperform narrow long boards from past,but allways stay question why wide boards come in windsurifng so late,becasue theory was same in 1990....I suppose this is because of evolution process based on rider feedback(trial/error system)

Usually knowelage speed up evolution process compare to evolution which is based on trial /error philosphy..

Here Barry Spainer talk about diffrent ways of development;
"About ten years ago when Art Szpunar began working with me, I saw an artist with mathematical and scientific skills who, like me, had a lifelong love of sailing with the wind. He had the skills to immediately take my design catalog and convert it to much more sophisticated CAD/CAM technology. My own background was much more experiential and success came more from determined, controlled development rather than the math and science. Art had done a series of graphic look designs in a loose association with another brand, but the fundamental concepts of shaping and tension were totally new. We would meld them, together.By committing to pass all of my own long tested design principals to him with no reservations, we began a close working relationship that has taken me to the point where now I can only say, "Art is so much better than I ever was!""

forceten
1312 posts
7 Apr 2019 10:04PM
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Nubie said..

Madge said..
I do recon Mr Ezzy is wrong about the designer not sailing, Kai from norths was a fine sailor in his time, RRD use John Skye who until recently was on the tour. Naish, well say no more everyone there sails.



I do not think that designer must sail.I think that is most important that they know about aerodynamics,also desing sail does not mean that you are good tailor,sewing is just way how sail is made..
Which designer study aerodynamics university or something similar?

In F1 is diffrent,you can not be baker or ex driver who develop "front wing" for Ferrari..You must be engineer.
Even they never sit in F1 car they do they job very good because they spent years at university to learn this knowledge.

So I think knowledge is the key.


The aerodynamicist, engineer and more, design the front wing on the F1 car, wind tunnel, etc .F1 teams have a development 3rd driver to evaluate if a wing or whatever, works. Yes Louis couldn't design a car, Alonso maybe could.
the best designer, will need evaluations.


sails: David Ezzy : Rather structured in his thinking . He released one of first 4 batten sails, then 3, then foil. Most of his development is to continue to improve a existing sail, so improve the quiver lineup, sometimes only a little change from year to year. His son Graham,ultimate team rider, I'm sure has a vital role here. Kevin Prichard , is a Team Rider, for sure.
David doesn't support a full on scale sponsor in PWA nor IWT.
The requirements of a pro , like Kevin can be the same as me.
Hot Sails Maui: Jeff Henderson is the designer,he sails all the time, they do have riders with HSM support .

The use of both Ezzy and Hot Sails Maui sails clearly show that a sailor has been involved with design.

Davids factory in Sri Lanka, treats the workers very well. When David visits he tries to sweep the floor, they won't let him do such work. He provides a hot meal. They reached out to help when a tsunami damaged homes.
He will answer most emails very quickly, most times if I call, he answers the phone himself.On Maui , he will spend time for rigging question, or just conversation.

My point is Ezzy, doesn't need to invest in a Team support, other than what he has.

BTW, I'm not in the Lewis parade. He is a awesome talent. Kimi OTOH, is near the front of my Parade.



Pacey
WA, 525 posts
8 Apr 2019 12:36AM
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Nubie said..
C7: How important are team riders and a professional world tour for a brand?

David Ezzy: Team riders are not very important for product development. Over the last 30 years, I've worked with a lot of big names and my sails have held many world titles. But through all that sail testing, only a few times have I been able to translate a team riders wants into anything useful design-wise. But I think I am in a different situation than most of the other sail designers because I windsurf practically every day either in the waves at Hookipa or flat-water at Kanaha. A lot of the other designers don't windsurf (or don't windsurf very much), so they might find rider feedback more useful. I am the first one to test every Ezzy sail.

www.continentseven.com/david-ezzy-interview/

Riders dont know nothing about aerodynamics/physics but isnt their feedback also important?
What do you think?


I think you are underestimating what a good sailor Dave Ezzy is, back in the day he was at the very top of the wavesailing ladder, and I thought probably in terms of waveriding, as opposed to jumping, he was the best in the world. I can still remember watching him at a contest at Hookipa years ago and being amazed.

Add a massive amount of sailing and sailmaking experience over the past 30 years, plus being based on Maui, and you have a guy who is better positioned than the vast majority of sailmakers and sailors to make judgements about sail designs.

AUS3333
31 posts
8 Apr 2019 6:47AM
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Team riders are important , maybe not as beneficial as designers like( same as F1 driver is to its designers). But they get the gear on the water and help sales by proving the gear ,weather they break the gear or break a record we are watching ??

Gestalt
QLD, 14097 posts
8 Apr 2019 9:00AM
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What a dick thing to say david ezzy.

Mastbender
1972 posts
8 Apr 2019 7:01AM
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It all comes down to communication, the designer/engineer/crew chief needs to be on the same page as the driver/rider, using the same terminology in all aspects of performance.
"The car is loose in, fine in the middle, and plows on exit", says the driver, the crew chief has to know exactly what's needed.
Dave Ezzy has probably never had a rider with the communication skills that Dave can instantly understand or trust. I guess that goes for Graham as well, who knows, father/son relationships can be confusing. But Graham is a great ambassador for the brand never the less.

Mark _australia
WA, 22081 posts
8 Apr 2019 7:33AM
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Nubie said.. If you give today slalom boards,wide,paralel outlines,hard rails etc to riders in 1990,they will say that board is very brutal to sail/jibe...
But sometimes riders must adapt to new stuff in purpose of performance.




Quite the opposite I'd say.

Man you do push this slalom board agenda quite hard huh.

Paducah
2444 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:14AM
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Nubie said..

Subsonic said

What looks good on paper sometimes doesn't make for a user friendly product.





If you give today slalom boards,wide,paralel outlines,hard rails etc to riders in 1990,they will say that board is very brutal to sail/jibe...
But sometimes riders must adapt to new stuff in purpose of performance.


There were a lot of **** boards and sails in the mid 90s because, while they were fast, they were brutal to the average rec sailor. We didn't often have ,amy freeride options especially in larger slalom boards and sails. Modern kit outside of pure race kit is much more user friendly.

NR
WA, 516 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:32AM
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The F1 argument I think doesn't apply here. In this case, all they are trying to do is make the car as good as possible and suited to their one, maybe 2 drivers. That's all that matters at the end of the day regardless of what any other test driver says. Also, times are not subjective. If in testing, its quicker, more consistent. that's all that counts.

With windsurfing, they are producing sails for the market. Not their team riders. the team are just there to promote the sails and for marketing. I am pretty sure if a windsurf company could make more from not having a team, they would. They would just have testers. So if their market is the average joe, then as long as their market buys and is happy with the product, that's all that matters really. Obviously the market is heavily influenced by what the top people are doing with the kit, so trying to get this balancing act would be the key. Hence the range of sails each company comes up with.

forceten
1312 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:44AM
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Gestalt said..
What a dick thing to say david ezzy.


What a dick thing to say Gestalt.

forceten
1312 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:48AM
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Mastbender said..
It all comes down to communication, the designer/engineer/crew chief needs to be on the same page as the driver/rider, using the same terminology in all aspects of performance.
"The car is loose in, fine in the middle, and plows on exit", says the driver, the crew chief has to know exactly what's needed.
Dave Ezzy has probably never had a rider with the communication skills that Dave can instantly understand or trust. I guess that goes for Graham as well, who knows, father/son relationships can be confusing. But Graham is a great ambassador for the brand never the less.



Probably never had a rider that could communicate .. that David can instantly understand.
horse manure.

didnt you post a photo of Graham on a prototype Elite very recent? Father son relationship..confusing
more horse leavings, who knows...why print such crap.

I cant recall anyone calling David , Dave, ever.

Reflex Films
WA, 1437 posts
8 Apr 2019 11:11AM
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I think both approaches can be appreciated without polarising the other side.

We all win when the sail designer sails as well as it inarguably creates a development turbo boost effect.

I respect what Ezzy do - they have their own program, they don't go after the endless results and podiums. and i think they have a cool niche for durable sails that go well - with a bit of the weight being the price of that extended durability. His son graham is an awesome sailor - so hats off and respect.

Ben Severne has mad sailing skills - and can get feedback from himself - but the ability to have feedback from the best racers who are handling forces and dynamics none of us can imagine mean that the performance envelope can be developed accordingly. And don't even get me started on the insanity that Jaeger and Philip bring.

everyone here knows I have a Severne bias - but I am very pro windsurfing (and pro cinematography) so...

if you want a real feelgood story on a similar theme - check this out. Monty Spindler's Story


Nubie
70 posts
8 Apr 2019 1:53PM
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Reflex Films said..
Ben Severne has mad sailing skills - and can get feedback from himself -


Is he ex wsurfer ,did he work for some sail brands before Severne sails ,what is his education...?

some biography?

Mainbreak
34 posts
8 Apr 2019 2:17PM
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C7: How important are team riders and a professional world tour for a brand?

I agree with Dave on this one, I don't use Ezzy sails,
Team rides are genetically gifted they have a way higher skill level than average Joe. They just make the brand look good and are great for marketing propaganda.
Ideally an above average sailor making and designing the sails will make a more user friendly product. They should have a group of average sailors for feedback.

Gonewindsurfing247
WA, 966 posts
8 Apr 2019 2:22PM
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I love how Monty Spindler puts it "We are part fish, part bird and part man when we go windsurfing".

Reflex Films
WA, 1437 posts
8 Apr 2019 2:51PM
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Mainbreak said..
C7: How important are team riders and a professional world tour for a brand?

I agree with Dave on this one, I don't use Ezzy sails,
Team rides are genetically gifted they have a way higher skill level than average Joe. They just make the brand look good and are great for marketing propaganda.
Ideally an above average sailor making and designing the sails will make a more user friendly product. They should have a group of average sailors for feedback.



average sailors are important- when Svein rasmussen developed his hugely popular carve boards he was up in eveyones grill getting feedback-but you also need to find the edge of the envelope to understand your parameters and limits- a good team rider will deliver that.

AusMoz
QLD, 1382 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:15PM
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Just some clarification - is a team rider just another way to say someone is sponsored???

NotWal
QLD, 7426 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:35PM
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^ Sponsership.
It's just getting gifted performers; racers, freestylers, anyone with a lot of skill and exposure, to display your product. Compensation ranges from discounts on gear to significant payments.

scottydog
230 posts
8 Apr 2019 7:17PM
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Mark _australia said..

Nubie said.. If you give today slalom boards,wide,paralel outlines,hard rails etc to riders in 1990,they will say that board is very brutal to sail/jibe...
But sometimes riders must adapt to new stuff in purpose of performance.





Quite the opposite I'd say.

Man you do push this slalom board agenda quite hard huh.



Agree...... I was thinking hard parallel rails were a late 80's / 90's thing! The new boards gybe live wave boards in comparison and are far more forgiving!

forceten
1312 posts
8 Apr 2019 10:48PM
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AusMoz said..
Just some clarification - is a team rider just another way to say someone is sponsored???


Team Rider : being sponsored could mean they receive sails, ( like no payment ) to ride that brand. It could also mean they receive sails and money to compete . It can also mean they can purchase sails at the wholesale or cost price, to promote, also called an Ambassador.

for someone to provide feedback or development they would be a Team Rider. One doesn't need to be a epic rider ,
they would need to be able to communicate tests.

forceten
1312 posts
9 Apr 2019 1:27AM
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Nubie

the interview you quote , I'm fairly certain is from March 2013, 6 years ago.

get a life

NordRoi
621 posts
9 Apr 2019 3:33AM
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David is David. I love his sail, I hate when he snakes my waves and he is very binary, all the best ingredients to be a good sail designer!? ;-)

If F1 engineer could drives f1 cars and of F1 rider could be F1 engineer....maybe, but windsurfing sails are not rocket science also.

Probably depend who is your target audience also, but in the case of Ezzy, he is a good sailor and he definitely provide feedback for himself, but he was probably more trying to justify why he don't really sponsoring much PWA riders.

forceten
1312 posts
9 Apr 2019 5:31AM
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NordRoi said..
David is David. I love his sail, I hate when he snakes my waves and he is very binary, all the best ingredients to be a good sail designer!? ;-)

If F1 engineer could drives f1 cars and of F1 rider could be F1 engineer....maybe, but windsurfing sails are not rocket science also.

Probably depend who is your target audience also, but in the case of Ezzy, he is a good sailor and he definitely provide feedback for himself, but he was probably more trying to justify why he don't really sponsoring much PWA riders.


Are you drunk



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"Importance of team rider for sail development?" started by Nubie