Hi all sailed a north ram f11 8.5 on my Fanatic falcon 159 light wind today for the first time since I purchased it and I was disappointed with the performance. Wind was 16/17kt and it felt heavy, cumbersome, slow and underpowered and difficult to get planing compared to my camless ezzy cheetah 8.5, plus I had trouble getting the middle cam to rotate around the mast properly, it was fine cracking it round after solid jibes but I had to push it with my hand after waterstarts/tacks etc. It was rigged right in the middle of the min/ Max downhaul settings and the outhaul for med height boom is 217 to 219, I had it at 220 to help with the cam rotation. I can't work out what went wrong, Its been a long time since I've sailed anything other than ezzy cheetahs, could it just be a matter of getting used to it and learning the characteristics of the sail. Should have just got a lion instead but got this one with a platinum mast both in mint condition for only $300 I couldn't say no. Anyone who's had one of these sails got any tips for me?
One good thing mobdog ,you have a excellent mast now to get the 8'5 lion ,one of my favorite sails .It has a lot more stability than the cheetah ,and top speed .
I have a 8'6 simmer race which really is a pain compared with the lion .even though top end is faster it's the rotation of 4 cams than need some banging after the gybe .so after you turn on the gybe you have to pull hard on the boom to get them to click into place .where the lion just falls into place .maybe try full DH on the north and loosen the batten ..
I used to use these sails a lot . F11,F12 , F13. .They are a heavy feeling sail at rest . Made very strong .They are good overpowered and don't get out of control . . You can take out the bottom cam on these sails to make them feel a bit lighter . I couldn't tell any difference in performance . Also remove the spacer behind the sticky cam . Try increasing batten tension and decrease outhaul. The cams make a solid bang when flipping over . Tug hard on the back hand when flipping over . It won't plane as early as your Ezzy but you can push it a lot harder .
Hope this helps .
Select to expand quoteTardy said..
One good thing mobdog ,you have a excellent mast now to get the 8'5 lion ,one of my favorite sails .It has a lot more stability than the cheetah ,and top speed .
I have a 8'6 simmer race which really is a pain compared with the lion .even though top end is faster it's the rotation of 4 cams than need some banging after the gybe .so after you turn on the gybe you have to pull hard on the boom to get them to click into place .where the lion just falls into place .maybe try full DH on the north and loosen the batten ..
Oh yeah forgot about batten tension. I rigged it and tuned in the back yard before sailing and that middle batten required a s!#t load of tension to get the wrinkles out, I'll back it off till the wrinkles just come back and try Max downhaul. Lucky I've got a power xt extension because there's no way I could downhaul it by hand, I'd hate to think what a warp and other race sails are like. I once had a gastra neutron 5 cam 9.5 that I got brand new cheap as a superseded model and I tried and failed to be able to rig it several times. Sold it 8 years later brand new and unused. The buyer was stoked and couldn't believe it. He must've been a lot stronger than me!
A down haul winch is a must for race sails ..bloody hands and back can't handle it anymore without ..lol.
I had the warps a few years back ..and yes they required a **** load of tension ,but go like hell .the new 3D north's are out soon ..but I reckon they will be $3000 plus ..Imax info sounds on it ,with my simmer I put a spacer on the second one of my simmer which reduced the tension on the 3 rd so it came more user friendly ,I also used a Ezzy cam for the bottom ,nicer rollers on the ezzy's cams .and have plenty laying around now I have 3 lions ,might pay to check the rollers on the cam too ..1 might have popped of ..which the north cams can do a times ..
Maybe there was a reason the "mint condition" combined sale of the mast & sail were on the market for cheap $300. Owner wanted to get rid of it asap.
Cut his losses & move it Kwik.
Appeared to work.
Buyer beware springs to mind.
On a positive note you're ahead with a good mast. Either sell the sail on OR embrace the new characteristics of the North challenge adjusting to the sail. Could just be familiarizing & adapting to this sail, first time out so maybe give it some time.
2022 is here happy sailing for the New year ahead!
I've had both Cheetahs and Lions in 8.5, but for me the Cheetah definately has better light wind performance.
It's the old argument cams vs no cam, but with a Cheetah you can go 1/2 meter smaller ie 8.5 Lion = 8m Cheetah
Select to expand quoteredrabbitz said..
Maybe there was a reason the "mint condition" combined sale of the mast & sail were on the market for cheap $300. Owner wanted to get rid of it asap.
Cut his losses & move it Kwik.
Appeared to work.
Buyer beware springs to mind.
On a positive note you're ahead with a good mast. Either sell the sail on OR embrace the new characteristics of the North challenge adjusting to the sail. Could just be familiarizing & adapting to this sail, first time out so maybe give it some time.
2022 is here happy sailing for the New year ahead!
Congratulations on winning the a-hole-of-the-year award, on the first day. Seriously, what is your problem ? This appears to be a case of not-enough-downhaul or some other sail-tuning.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
^^ +1
sticky cam or tuning required does not mean he got ripped.
Yep all good advice( except the one to get rid of it). Had it out twice more and it was much better than 1st time. Bit more downhaul and less outhaul did the trick. I have sailed it in 22kt on my falcon lightwind and it was really good didn't even feel overpowered and my heart rate never went higher than 128bpm in nearly 2hrs so I think that shows relaxed control. Only thing to sort still is that damn middle cam not fully rotating. Took the batten tensioner out with me and tried both more and less tension, no luck. I have now noticed that unlike other cammed sails all 3 cams are different lengths just wondering if they are all in the right batten which I don't think they would work any other way, they are too different in length. Photo of order they are in the sail, J shortest at the bottom,G longest one in the middle and E medium length at the top, I have noticed that it does not affect the luff profile or performance at all when not fully rotated so might be best to just forget about it.
Actually I have just realised they won't work in any other order due to the mast taper, Bit slow today, too many beers last night.
Select to expand quotecald said..
No Spacer on the sticky cam?
Yep no spacer on any of them, I was thinking that might make it worse if I put one on there so I think I will file a little bit of it with a round file and try that.
I have two north mast and they are slightly different in diameter that may be the problem ,a simmer will work ok on it too .
and they do differ from year to year and carbon content .my north 75% is large diameter than the north 100 ,I have a few old north sails in the shed ..if you want me to send you a cam
warps .sails are routed but the cams are still in ..trouble with sanding it it will may make the hole too big and you will get a sloppy cam .
a ezzy lion cam also may work .
also try a spacer on the top and bottom cam that will release some of the pressure of the middle one ...and make them equal in pressure and should rotate easier ..I have had a few north sails and they are really fussy with what mast you put in them ..ezzy ,they will work on anything ..I just brought a 100% simmer 490 for my 8,5 lion ..its bliss ..my north mast was 25 years old ,and showing the age ,the alloy mast cup had cracked so time to change .
I aslo have ground a cam down and glued a spacer on the end to get the size to fit the batten .put that platinum mast in your cheetah it will work a treat .
Select to expand quoteTardy said..
I have two north mast and they are slightly different in diameter that may be the problem ,a simmer will work ok on it too .
and they do differ from year to year and carbon content .my north 75% is large diameter than the north 100 ,I have a few old north sails in the shed ..if you want me to send you a cam
warps .sails are routed but the cams are still in ..trouble with sanding it it will may make the hole too big and you will get a sloppy cam .
a ezzy lion cam also may work .
also try a spacer on the top and bottom cam that will release some of the pressure of the middle one ...and make them equal in pressure and should rotate easier ..I have had a few north sails and they are really fussy with what mast you put in them ..ezzy ,they will work on anything ..I just brought a 100% simmer 490 for my 8,5 lion ..its bliss ..my north mast was 25 years old ,and showing the age ,the alloy mast cup had cracked so time to change .
I aslo have ground a cam down and glued a spacer on the end to get the size to fit the batten .put that platinum mast in your cheetah it will work a treat .
I took it out today and s#!t I think it worked. Rotated properly 90% of the time. I filed it maybe 3mm at most with a chainsaw file didn't make the hole any bigger it was definitely better. I reckon all I have to do now is put the thinner spacers top and bottom like you say and it will go round every time. I can't grasp that 3mm made such a difference but it did. I did try the platinum in the cheetah last week and your right, it actually seemed better than the hookipa, maybe cause it's a bit lighter I guess.
I remember several forum queries about North sails of that era as North had various diameters of masts (all SDM at the base). Fiddling with spacers and/or filing cams seemed to be the fix.
Select to expand quoteTardy said..
awesome .
I reckon the larger ezzys work better on SDM .
I have an Ezzy Lion 8.5m and swapped from a Simmer SDM 80% to Ezzy RDM and didnt notice much difference. At around the same time I also changed boards from a 2009 Fanatic Falcon 125l/73cm to an Exocet 125l/80cm from 2004, which means you cant really compare. The best 2 GPS 10s average are the Falcon/Simmer SDM but reckon thats more due to the board. Only 0.2 knots difference. The RDM seems to give more low end power, but again that could be the boards extra tail width, ofo of 57cm on the Exocet to 51cm on the Falcon. I would have thought the Fanatic would have been faster than the Exocet, maybe it is, but the Ezzy RDM is better than the Simmer. Who knows (or cares). More likely when flat out on an 8.5m I cant sail fast
interesting test Phil.I thought the falcon would of been faster too...I like the lightness of the 8,5 lions i use mine on a 120 litre 70 wide Frace Patrik ,and 140 Frace .
