Forums > Windsurfing General

What actually is a Bump and Jump board/sail?

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Created by nosinkanow > 9 months ago, 22 Nov 2010
nosinkanow
NSW, 441 posts
22 Nov 2010 3:53PM
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Can someone please explain B&J, is this a marketing moniker coined by one of the manufacturers to extend their product line? Or is it now a recognised discipline of what was once called chop hopping or wave jumping or both? And what makes the equipment different to wave, freestyle/freestyle wave or freeride gear? In my modest assumption and experience (in a previous life) any board that can plane can jump. Do we really need another category to confuse an already wide product range to a limited market?...I'm confused (scratches head).

Trousers
SA, 556 posts
22 Nov 2010 3:40PM
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i agree, it's confusing to me as well. here's my opinion (which may be way off), I think B&J gear is tailored to the recreational sailor. they enjoy blasting (mostly flat water) and are not going for flakkas, nor smacking the lip. straight line, a gybe and a chop-hop here and there. comfort is the key driver. i'd consider myself one of these sailors.

B&J boards and sails favour comfortable riding, instead of on-the-edge and tend to be less technical (more forgiving) than the slalom/racing gear.

B&J does not need to ride backwards or have especially loose tails like modern freestyle. freestyle sails will favour transitions and early planing over high-end stability.

B&J does not need serious rocker to ride waves, nor the pinched tails for slashing manoeuvres on a wave face. once again wave sails favour low-end power and transitions (and durability)

so that leaves freeride, which to be honest I can't tell the difference with B&J.

is B&J a legitimate sub-discipline. probably not. if Robby can loop a one design*, I guess any board can be used for any purpose.

*and _did_ he? or is this just urban legend?

Mark _australia
WA, 17064 posts
22 Nov 2010 1:47PM
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I've never seen a B&J board or sail? Just that we refer to that style of sailing to denote back n forth with a few little jumps.

IMHO is it is pretty flat, maybe up to knee hi chop a freeride will do it.
Bit bigger, maybe Gorge style chop or proper waves you are hitting at 90deg (unlike chop) even if they're only knee high - a FSW is best.

For either you want any stable sail that is strong so a freestyle sails, power wave sails of camless freerides with a bit of reinforcement to them. I think about the only one that comes close to dedicated B&J is Sailwork's Hucker designed for the Gorge

KenHo
QLD, 1353 posts
22 Nov 2010 4:41PM
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Or, in contrast to the above patronising reply, B&J can be thought of as what happens when you get serious wind in anything but very protected waters. The term has been around at least since I bought my first decent board in 1995, as it was called a B&J board by the shaper.
I consider myself a B&J sailor primarily, because, as much as people blather on about down-the-line wave sailing, very few people spend much time doing it. I prefer going fast on a back-side tack to bobbing out and cruising back on a wave face that may or may not be going very fast. GIve me a speed blast any day.
Most "wave" sailors spend most of their time in cross-onshore waves torn up by the wind, creating lots of ramps for jumps, some of which can be huge. That's B&J. Rough water, lots of wind.
Sailing in the Gorge, for example, or Maui summer is B&J.
A B&J board can be anything that's not going to trip over the rail if it's landed a bit wonky or gets slammed sideways by a big gust, and usually a fin that is bigger and more upright than a wave fin, without being a full-on slalom fin. Positive bouyancy is usually a feature too.
Getting upwind is handy, so you have some room to pop back-side airials and run down wave faces.
B&J boards are respectably fast, without being too hard to control in rough water. The speed helps big jumps.
Freestyle, FSW, smaller slalom boards and larger wave boards are the usual choice, though smaller wave boards work too, if there is enough wind.

grumplestiltskin
WA, 2323 posts
22 Nov 2010 2:48PM
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KenHo said...

Or, in contrast to the above patronising reply



what the hell was patronising about that answer, thought it described B&J as a style rather than a board/sail type quite eloquently

KenHo
QLD, 1353 posts
22 Nov 2010 5:00PM
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"sailing back and forth with a few little jumps", patronising to me






grumplestiltskin said...

KenHo said...

Or, in contrast to the above patronising reply



what the hell was patronising about that answer, thought it described B&J as a style rather than a board/sail type quite eloquently


Trousers
SA, 556 posts
22 Nov 2010 5:39PM
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KenHo said...

"sailing back and forth with a few little jumps", patronising to me...


so Ken was refering to my guess (not Marks comment). I guessed wrong and didn't mean it to be patronising. I'll wear that on the chin. It's good that windsurfers are a passionate bunch and it's easy to spark a religious war (I wear a seat dammit)

I enjoyed reading his response, and I've been on the internet long enough not to be sensitive, so in my book, no foul.


KenHo
QLD, 1353 posts
22 Nov 2010 5:13PM
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No, it was Mark's post I quoted.
So long as you are not wearing boardies over that seat harness....

I think the "Dale Cook jump" qualifies as B&J too.

Trousers said...

KenHo said...

"sailing back and forth with a few little jumps", patronising to me...


so Ken was refering to my guess (not Marks comment). I guessed wrong and didn't mean it to be patronising. I'll wear that on the chin. It's good that windsurfers are a passionate bunch and it's easy to spark a religious war (I wear a seat dammit)

I enjoyed reading his response, and I've been on the internet long enough not to be sensitive, so in my book, no foul.





Trousers
SA, 556 posts
22 Nov 2010 5:48PM
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wow...I thought you were talking about my "chop hop here and there" line...kinda the same thing as what Mark said.

so now i've ballsed twice in one thread. maybe that hit to the head on saturday was a bit more serious than originally thought...

and boardies over a wetsuit???...NEVA! i may fail in reading comprehension, but you can never take my dignity.

(is any of this helping nosinkanow? )

Gestalt
QLD, 11649 posts
22 Nov 2010 5:36PM
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bj to me is allround sailing mixed into one. ie. blasting, freewave, freestyle wave, freestyle all mixed into one. either in big swell or little chop. ocean sailing can be bump and jump, so can lake sailing, bay sailing or onshore surf sailing. it's blasting on fastish, slashy, turny gear with jumps, stacks and carves to prevent boredom.

boards need to turn well and have a bit of speed and some V. wave boards are a little too slow (rocker) for bump and jump unless the winds cranking.

sails are usually crossover sails with either a wave bias or a freeride bias but usually have a slightly higher foot than a freeride/slalom sail and definitely no cams. bj sails also have a bit more shape than wave sails so are a little more powerfull.

fins usually freewave/wave shapes.

oh and most important. gear needs to be tough!

sorry for the 400 edits.

now a word from my sponsors.... hehehehehhe hahahahahahh i wish!

www.lorch-boards.de/Offroad-NEW.860.0.html
www.kasail.com/windsurfing/sails/2010/2010_kult.html

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
22 Nov 2010 7:06PM
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That's funny cos to me bj is something else completly, and unlike windsurfing its very enjoyable even when its not windy!

Gestalt
QLD, 11649 posts
22 Nov 2010 6:10PM
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lol,

what do you see?

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
22 Nov 2010 7:17PM
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Gestalt said...

lol,

what do you see?




That's awful , I can't believe you posted such filth!

;-) lmao

Gestalt
QLD, 11649 posts
22 Nov 2010 6:22PM
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is it just me or does it look like 2 chicks with big bums kissing?

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
22 Nov 2010 7:29PM
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Gestalt said...

is it just me or does it look like 2 chicks with big bums kissing?


Big bums and tails?????? Man! What do the women look like in your neck of the woods ?

Mark _australia
WA, 17064 posts
22 Nov 2010 5:11PM
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Ken how is that patronising?
Little jumps, by definition, are smaller than big ones.

Would you include 30ft hi back loops in B&J? Of course not.

It adequately describes the activity and in no way implies that those who do B&J are not hardcore. If you took it that way you read too much into it.

However, I disagree that your example is B&J - it is wavesailing. Just not at the Ho'okipa ideal conditions end, more at the real world end of the spectrum.
I think what is implied in B&J kinda ends once you're riding waves (even if backside) and doing something in the air rather than a straight out jump (let's say getting really vertical airs through to lopps etc)

KenHo
QLD, 1353 posts
22 Nov 2010 7:29PM
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So you don't think it's patronising to say that B&J sailors only do little jumps, cos they are not pulling 30' back loops ?

C'mon dude, be a little more inclusive. If you are getting air, it's B&J. Could be big, could be little, might include loops, front or back.
I like the way Gestalt put it. I forgot to mention the crashes.

On sails, they used to make some great single and twin cam B&J sails, until Robbie decided we didn't need them any more. I had a blinder of a HOT single cam 5.5.
Grunty wave sails work a treat these days.

Edit: Just saw your edit. I've sailed a lot in cross-over conditions, where strong cross-onshore wind are turning waves into B&J, with big jumps on the way out and lots of back-side wave riding and aerials on the way back in, so maybe I don't separate them so much.
I've also had a lot of negative comments from people about those conditions, saying they are not real wave riding.



Mark _australia said...

Ken how the hell is that patronising?
Little jumps, by definition, are smaller than big ones.

Would you include 30ft hi back loops in B&J? Of course not.

It adequately describes the activity and in no way implies that those who do B&J are not hardcore. If you took it that way you read too much into it.




Mark _australia
WA, 17064 posts
22 Nov 2010 5:36PM
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"My mate drives a little car". Descriptive, but hardly patronising. You surely must agree that most B&J involes smaller jumps than most wavesailing.

The guy asked for a definition of B&J and if I said "anything that is not freeride / slalom, in up to 30kn winds, up to 30ft jumps and backside wave riding" I'd be roundly criticised.

What I described is 90% of what B&J sailors would do or I'm sure what 90% of people would call B&J.

IMHO what you are doing is wavesailing and if you choose to call it B&J then go for it.

KenHo
QLD, 1353 posts
22 Nov 2010 7:58PM
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Nah, but if you said he just drives back and forth in his little car, that is patronising, and that is a pretty accurate paraphrase of your comment.
Glad to know I've been wave-sailing all these years. I'll tell Sean.

Last response from me. I'm sounding combative, and I don't want to do that.

Mark _australia said...

"My mate drives a little car". Descriptive, but hardly patronising. You surely must agree that most B&J involes smaller jumps than most wavesailing.

The guy asked for a definition of B&J and if I said "anything that is not freeride / slalom, in up to 30kn winds, up to 30ft jumps and backside wave riding" I'd be roundly criticised.

What I described is 90% of what B&J sailors would do or I'm sure what 90% of people would call B&J.

IMHO what you are doing is wavesailing and if you choose to call it B&J then go for it.


albers
NSW, 1415 posts
22 Nov 2010 9:20PM
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Hey guys , let's get back to basics.

"One man's excellence is another man's mediocrity"

There are SO many levels to this sport. But one thing is for sure. You can always keep improving, no matter how old you are (forget about PWA sailors for the moment).

The ongoing challenge in this sport is not against other windsurfers - it's against yourself! What you can't do today, you try to do tomorrow!

Cheers



Gestalt
QLD, 11649 posts
22 Nov 2010 8:21PM
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^^ i just want you both to know i love you guys.

Mark _australia
WA, 17064 posts
22 Nov 2010 6:23PM
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who? Albers and Ken or Ken and I?
I'd hate to miss out on the love Gestie

Gestalt
QLD, 11649 posts
22 Nov 2010 8:24PM
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you and ken, but albers is welcome also.

Mark _australia
WA, 17064 posts
22 Nov 2010 6:26PM
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Gestalt said...

you and ken, but albers is welcome also.


Starting to sound a bit too "kite forum" so I'm out sorry.

So back to the ink blots - love Raw Shark tests

Anyone else see a pudgy version of the Stig in the centre?

Gestalt
QLD, 11649 posts
22 Nov 2010 8:27PM
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ken reminded me of something.

bump and jump started out life as wave slalom. that rocked. my first real board that didn't have a centreboard was a custom wave slalom 9'2". my graphics.

was flouro yellow and purple and orange. of course full polyester construction wiht a stringer.

matched it with 6.5m wildwinds world cup wave slalom in flouro yellow and removable cams. full mono!

i had som many great sessions in the surf on that board.

Spocktek
WA, 261 posts
22 Nov 2010 6:49PM
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wave/slalom, the old crew will know! So, a backie could be B&J, or wave/slalom,or whatever. Spose it`s like supermoto, they go fast and bust airs, sounds good to me!
(ps I changed my avatar, I wanna be like Col)

Spocktek
WA, 261 posts
22 Nov 2010 6:52PM
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Select to expand quote
Gestalt said...

ken reminded me of something.

bump and jump started out life as wave slalom.

hey you said that the same time as me, so it must be true!

KenHo
QLD, 1353 posts
22 Nov 2010 9:08PM
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Semantics is a funny thing.
In every other sport, slalom refers to weaving between obstacles. In windsurfing, it's going in a straight line pretty much.
Wave/slalom, OTOH, introduces an element of weaving, which is somewhat ironic, since is a variation away from pure slalom.
Maybe they called the first slalom boards slalom because you could actually steer them with foot pressure, unlike a dagger board.

Spocktek
WA, 261 posts
22 Nov 2010 7:21PM
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KenHo said...

Semantics is a funny thing.
In every other sport, slalom refers to weaving between obstacles. In windsurfing, it's going in a straight line pretty much.



Huh? ever been to a slalom race?
(im not being patronising nor do I want to start a arguement but slalom is exactly that)

shear tip
NSW, 1109 posts
22 Nov 2010 10:23PM
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KenHo said...

Semantics is a funny thing.
In every other sport, slalom refers to weaving between obstacles. In windsurfing, it's going in a straight line pretty much.


...So are pedantics. Straight line sounds like speed sailing.

[edit:] spocky, you beat me to it!

Mobydisc
NSW, 7798 posts
22 Nov 2010 10:57PM
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In answer to the original question. Whenever you see bump and jump think wave/slalom.



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"What actually is a Bump and Jump board/sail?" started by nosinkanow