Forums > Windsurfing General

Where is the leverage?

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Created by Loreni 28 days ago, 17 Sep 2021
Loreni
48 posts
17 Sep 2021 10:20PM
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I learned that by (hips) facing more towards the side of the board I can now pull the sail better with both legs. Get the sail over the back of the board.

But this is the pulling power of legs. Where is the leverage? What is the trick that makes the harness do the 90% of the work?

Sandman1221
977 posts
17 Sep 2021 11:23PM
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Need to lean out over the rail to load up the harness line if you are windsurfing. Harness line length, boom height, harness hook height, sail size, and your weight and height, all factor into getting the pressure on the sail to be offset by your body weight.

boardsurfr
WA, 1424 posts
18 Sep 2021 1:36AM
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Two critical things are harness line position and stance. If the harness line position of wrong by just a couple of centimeters, you'll have to use your arms more. Unfortunately, finding the right position seems to be quite hard for many windsurfers learning to use the harness and foot straps. Part of the problem can be that the sail is not trimmed right, which can make it more unstable or twitchy.

The ideal stance depends a bit on the conditions, with a straight figure 7 stance for flatter water, and a "power 6" stance for chop and overpowered conditions. A very common mistake is to bend the arms too much, especially the front arm. It should be (almost) straight most of the time, and you'll need to look at it to make sure - we often have a wrong mental image of what we are doing.

With the gear set up correctly and a decent stance, you should be able to 'play the piano' while windsurfing: your grip should be light enough so that you can move the fingers independently on the boom. That's a useful thing to practice a lot. If you find it's harder to to with the front or back hand, you may have to move the harness lines a bit in this direction.

Mark _australia
WA, 20649 posts
18 Sep 2021 9:03AM
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"pulling the sail in better to get it over the back of the board" sounds like when in the harness, you are not sheeting in.

= harness lines in wrong place.

You should never need to pull on the boom or move your body to acheive a correct sheeting angle when planing in the straps.

Manuel7
691 posts
18 Sep 2021 9:30AM
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Leverage mostly comes from fin lateral resistance and board resistance to sink.

So at slow speeds you hang off the boom to drive force onto the mast foot.

Once up going, you push against the fin and lean against the harness keeping the sail as far away from you as possible.

Loreni
48 posts
18 Sep 2021 4:37PM
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I pull the sail over the back of the board to "close the gap". How do you close the gap?

Harness lines are in the right place I move them forward until the critical front hand stops pulling.

Subsonic
WA, 2423 posts
18 Sep 2021 5:07PM
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What kind of sail are you using? A race sail? Or a wave sail? " Closing the gap" will feel natural with a race orientated sail, but a wave sail's not really designed to work that way.

as said above, you should pretty much be able to let go of the boom whilst hooked into everything and planing in a consistent breeze, and not have the rig move of its own accord. You'll know if you've got it right before letting it go, because it neither hand will be feeling like its supporting the rig one way or the other. You'll just be "resting" them on the boom.

if you find your self not able to do this, then something needs moving, starting with harness line position. Have them a hand palm width apart whilst tuning them, move them towards the hand that is carrying weight a little bit at a time till it feels balanced. If there is front hand pressure that doesn't disappear when you move them forward then bump the boom down (it should be around shoulder height when youre standing on the board as a general guideline)

Mark _australia
WA, 20649 posts
18 Sep 2021 5:23PM
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^^^ +1

and "closing the gap" on a freerace or race sail comes only when fully lit, on the edge of control, fully loaded fin and almost terrified. Then you will be working your legs HARD

So much like my comments about people who think 'getting in the straps' is the goal - and I say no, you get in the straps cos you have to .....
This is similar ------ are you trying to close the gap too soon...?
It's a long progressive spectrum between mast vertical non-planing and the situation you describe Loreni. So its hard to advise unless we see what you mean. Vid or pic..?:

BTB
WA, 112 posts
18 Sep 2021 7:47PM
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What is the trick that makes the harness do the 90% of the work?

Push into the harness like u r trying to **** pooh.

Manuel7
691 posts
18 Sep 2021 9:37PM
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A great exercice is to sail by pushing the boom away from us.
So instead of pulling on back hand, push on front hand and instead of pulling with front hand push with back hand.
Always keep legs stiff with a slight give on the back to absorb.

mark62
424 posts
18 Sep 2021 9:39PM
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This such a difficult question to answer because there are so many variables in play here. Some times best to figure stuff out ourselves.

It sound like a ball ache, but spend a few sessions constantly making changes to your set up (boom height, harness line position & length, deck plate position) and play with where you place your hands on the boom. Make one change at a time, not multiple changes.

Make notes at the end of good sessions when it feels good so you don't forget settings. When it all feels effortless, light, fast and comfortable, that's when you know you got it right.

Don't pull on the boom, that's not good.

Just my 2 cents.

Loreni
48 posts
18 Sep 2021 10:06PM
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Basically I'm trying to improve my basics. Like re learn things.

One thing that Manta does well is eat chop while mine doesn't quite do the job. So I got bigger sail and fins now but I also ask around for the technique.

Yes I noticed that too. If you push with front hand the harness will just start grabbing you more.

Will try when there is wind ask someone to record me...

Mr Milk
NSW, 2468 posts
19 Sep 2021 11:09AM
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boardsurfr said..
Two critical things are harness line position and stance. If the harness line position of wrong by just a couple of centimeters, you'll have to use your arms more. Unfortunately, finding the right position seems to be quite hard for many windsurfers learning to use the harness and foot straps. Part of the problem can be that the sail is not trimmed right, which can make it more unstable or twitchy.

The ideal stance depends a bit on the conditions, with a straight figure 7 stance for flatter water, and a "power 6" stance for chop and overpowered conditions. A very common mistake is to bend the arms too much, especially the front arm. It should be (almost) straight most of the time, and you'll need to look at it to make sure - we often have a wrong mental image of what we are doing.

With the gear set up correctly and a decent stance, you should be able to 'play the piano' while windsurfing: your grip should be light enough so that you can move the fingers independently on the boom. That's a useful thing to practice a lot. If you find it's harder to to with the front or back hand, you may have to move the harness lines a bit in this direction.


What is a "power 6" stance? I'm guessing that "figure 7" has front arm stretched and body hanging out and back as far as possible, but I can't visualise "power 6"

boardsurfr
WA, 1424 posts
21 Sep 2021 1:01AM
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Figure 7 means everything is straight - arms, knees,hips, and back. It does not say anything about hanging out; in fact, it's a common stance for freestylers who have short fins that require to be more above the board, simply because it's very efficient. It's also a good stance for freeride foiling.

In overpowered conditions and chop, bending at the hip and the knees can make life a lot easier. So instead of your entire body being straight, as in a 7, you have a couple of bends, which can approach right angles when the chop gets steep and the wind strong. If you need pictures to visualize this, check the thread at www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Stance-6

Here's a brief discussion by Matt Pritchard: pritchardwindsurfing.com/pw2020/handling-high-wind-chop

Madge
NSW, 396 posts
21 Sep 2021 9:13AM
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Its not just about leverage, its about driving the board through the mast foot.

Harness lines don't just let you hang off the boom with no arm adjustment whilst sailing.
You don't just lay your body out like hiking out on a sailing boat either.

Its a cross between balancing the rig, resting your arms and being efficient. The use of the hips depends of what sailing angle, how much power etc you have.

I'd say wave sailing you use the harness a lot less, like less than 60% of the time in proper waves too.

A lot more experience helps too and you'll have heaps of catapults too as no ones perfect. When they work great they are brilliant.

Loreni
48 posts
21 Sep 2021 8:36PM
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So from most replies seems like there is no trick? You just try to be as straight as possible unless overpowered.

Leg wise I have another question. The front leg - is it pushing it towards the sky or towards the sea?

aeroegnr
316 posts
21 Sep 2021 9:23PM
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Loreni said..
So from most replies seems like there is no trick? You just try to be as straight as possible unless overpowered.

Leg wise I have another question. The front leg - is it pushing it towards the sky or towards the sea?


Front leg is straighter, pointing forward. Back leg is bent. Big toe pointing forward and up, sometimes leveraging off of the strap depending on how outboard your stance is and how outboard your footstraps are adjusted.Look at Guy Cribb's guide: www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Slip%20into%20Something%20More%20Comfortable.pdf

Manuel7
691 posts
22 Sep 2021 8:24AM
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Loreni
48 posts
22 Sep 2021 4:23PM
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Manuel7 said..


I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.

JPBARNA
126 posts
27 Sep 2021 2:47AM
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Mark _australia said..
^^^ +1

and "closing the gap" on a freerace or race sail comes only when fully lit, on the edge of control, fully loaded fin and almost terrified. Then you will be working your legs HARD

So much like my comments about people who think 'getting in the straps' is the goal - and I say no, you get in the straps cos you have to .....
This is similar ------ are you trying to close the gap too soon...?
It's a long progressive spectrum between mast vertical non-planing and the situation you describe Loreni. So its hard to advise unless we see what you mean. Vid or pic..?:





Hi Mark:

Today I was sailing my "new" old Mistral New Malibu, and exactly planing close to getting into the straps but I felt I needed a little more wind, or a little bigger sail, or a little something I ignore. So I took measures to the board variables and are:

board lenght: 326cm
Mast foot from back of the board: 158cm
Sail Size: 6,7 slalom type
Boom: 205
Mast: 4,60
Downhaul: really fine, the shape of the sail and mast were perfectly tuned with slack in the top third or so.
Harness Lines: 39cm from front of the Boom (measured following the boom,s shape, not a straight line from mast.
HL separation: 16cm
HL Lenght from boom to my harness: 33cm
Front Footstrap distance from mast foot: 52cm
Distance to back footstrap: 49cm


So... I was going really fast for my standards :-), fully in the harness weighting the boom, no stress in my arms, board really planning. But... to get INTO the straps was not natural (I did not try it because I felt that I would have to fight too much leverage from front arm and maybe catapulted). The most confortable stance was with my front foot just after the front strap over the rail, and the back foot was really close to it (maybe this is my old school stance that was kind of OK in 1990).

The boom was too low as it slid down the mast and I was not wanting to adjust it, but I ignore if the boom height (the correct one for me would have been 10cm higher) wa the source of the problem

I suspect my harness lines are too forward, but I ignore if that is the case or not. Other factor could be that this board is from 1995 and the sail is from 2008.

I know how to get into the straps with the same wind (10 to 15 knots) in my Bic Core 148 with the same rig and it feels really easy, the New Malibu seems to have everything reeeeeeaaaly back. Was it designed for a longer sailr or boom? Is this fixable?

Where can I start?

Thanks!

JP

LeeD
3200 posts
27 Sep 2021 2:55AM
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Possible.....move mast track 2cm forward for reaching angles. Boom height slightly higher, around chin to nose.

JPBARNA
126 posts
27 Sep 2021 3:19AM
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LeeD said..
Possible.....move mast track 2cm forward for reaching angles. Boom height slightly higher, around chin to nose.


Thanks Lee but, wouldn't moving the mast foot forward make the foot straps be farther back? I absolutely ignore the mechanics and the theory so maybe doing what you say will put my body in a better position to be comfortable in the straps. My feeling is really strange relating to the straps but everything else I love this old board.

LeeD
3200 posts
27 Sep 2021 3:51AM
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A distance of 26", center of mast foot to center of front strap is perfectly acceptable in long boards.
Some heavier riders can go 29'.

Chris 249
NSW, 2693 posts
27 Sep 2021 6:26PM
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Loreni said..

Manuel7 said..



I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.


If you DO sail just like that, you don't need to ask questions and just have to spend more time polishing your trophies.

Subsonic
WA, 2423 posts
27 Sep 2021 4:48PM
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Loreni said..


Manuel7 said..




I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.



If thats truly the case, then focus on pointing your toes more, like a ballerina. You will find theres more load on your back foot than the front foot, the back foot is where you need to keep your toes pointed.


Antoine isn't just tilting the leeward rail in like that because it looks good.

Mr Milk
NSW, 2468 posts
27 Sep 2021 10:53PM
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Isn't part of the reason the leeward rail is lower in that pic just that he's going across the chop so the board rocks from side to side depending on whether it's crossing the front of a wave or the back?

JPBARNA
126 posts
27 Sep 2021 9:18PM
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Select to expand quote
Chris 249 said..

Loreni said..


Manuel7 said..




I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.



If you DO sail just like that, you don't need to ask questions and just have to spend more time polishing your trophies.


In my case, I would say I have the harness lines in the place he has his front hand. So
I guess I have to move it back. I'm anxiously expecting to fight the mast and sail trying to catapult me over the board's nose. How to avoid?

thanks!

Loreni
48 posts
27 Sep 2021 10:29PM
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Subsonic said..

Loreni said..



Manuel7 said..





I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.




If thats truly the case, then focus on pointing your toes more, like a ballerina. You will find theres more load on your back foot than the front foot, the back foot is where you need to keep your toes pointed.


Antoine isn't just tilting the leeward rail in like that because it looks good.



Interesting....I have weight on heels on both legs when in straps planing. Will try to point fingers with my back foot.

What I usually do when I get in both straps is front foot I kick it like a football towards the sky and back foot away from me and more towards the sea.

Subsonic
WA, 2423 posts
28 Sep 2021 10:54AM
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Select to expand quote
Loreni said..

Subsonic said..


Loreni said..




Manuel7 said..






I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.





If thats truly the case, then focus on pointing your toes more, like a ballerina. You will find theres more load on your back foot than the front foot, the back foot is where you need to keep your toes pointed.


Antoine isn't just tilting the leeward rail in like that because it looks good.




Interesting....I have weight on heels on both legs when in straps planing. Will try to point fingers with my back foot.

What I usually do when I get in both straps is front foot I kick it like a football towards the sky and back foot away from me and more towards the sea.


You'll find that front foot you end up twisting it to keep it in the strap, there should be a little bit of load on it, but back foot point it.

Loreni
48 posts
28 Sep 2021 8:13PM
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Select to expand quote
Subsonic said..

Loreni said..


Subsonic said..



Loreni said..





Manuel7 said..







I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.






If thats truly the case, then focus on pointing your toes more, like a ballerina. You will find theres more load on your back foot than the front foot, the back foot is where you need to keep your toes pointed.


Antoine isn't just tilting the leeward rail in like that because it looks good.





Interesting....I have weight on heels on both legs when in straps planing. Will try to point fingers with my back foot.

What I usually do when I get in both straps is front foot I kick it like a football towards the sky and back foot away from me and more towards the sea.



You'll find that front foot you end up twisting it to keep it in the strap, there should be a little bit of load on it, but back foot point it.



I got a little AHA moment after your reply! Now I understand how to step on a gas paddle.

The tip from the pro surfer was only to put as much weight as possible to front foot. And also to turn hips towards the front of the board and pull the sail back. But I never understood what exactly you do with legs.

Thanks!

Grantmac
1040 posts
28 Sep 2021 11:44PM
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Select to expand quote
Loreni said..

Subsonic said..


Loreni said..




Manuel7 said..






I surf just like that but my windward rail in lower than leeward.





If thats truly the case, then focus on pointing your toes more, like a ballerina. You will find theres more load on your back foot than the front foot, the back foot is where you need to keep your toes pointed.


Antoine isn't just tilting the leeward rail in like that because it looks good.




Interesting....I have weight on heels on both legs when in straps planing. Will try to point fingers with my back foot.

What I usually do when I get in both straps is front foot I kick it like a football towards the sky and back foot away from me and more towards the sea.


This is why you can't use the back straps. You have to push across the board with your toes to get the rail flying.



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"Where is the leverage?" started by Loreni