Forums > Windsurfing General

Windsurfer hit and killed by kiter

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Created by seanhogan > 9 months ago, 6 Oct 2013
John340
QLD, 2425 posts
9 Oct 2013 3:36PM
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BenKirk said..
Mark _australia said..

I think it is sad if anyone does NOT know the rules. You don't do away with the rules due to ignorance.

I think it is irresponsible if anyone does NOT know the rules.


I agree

evlPanda
NSW, 9136 posts
9 Oct 2013 4:49PM
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Macroscien said..
There was time yesterday when official patrol boat stop and stood for almost an hour in the middle of our busy at the time WS KS spot carefully observing what everybody is doing (at Train G.C).


There's a 40 knot speed limit in the general Broadwater, where you were.

...I have to admit I might very well frame this speeding fine if I received it. Especially if it were a good photo.

Macroscien
QLD, 6290 posts
9 Oct 2013 4:41PM
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evlPanda said..

Macroscien said..
There was time yesterday when official patrol boat stop and stood for almost an hour in the middle of our busy at the time WS KS spot carefully observing what everybody is doing (at Train G.C).


There's a 40 knot speed limit in the general Broadwater, where you were.

...I have to admit I might very well frame this speeding fine if I received it. Especially if it were a good photo.



What about offending vessel confiscation for hooning Are you happy with that also



In such case I will be happy to buy the lot on the police auction ( don't need to experiment with my own gear)


Just watch for the yellow mark post at the end of the speed run. I will not accept two pieces board

Bristol
ACT, 340 posts
9 Oct 2013 6:05PM
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John340 said..
. . .
The port / starboard rule for WS and KS is pretty simple.
If the wind is coming from the right hand side of your board, then you have right of way.
If the wind is coming from your left hand side of your board, you have to give way.


I remember the rule differently; the outcome is the same.

If your right hand is forward, you have right of way.

Macroscien
QLD, 6290 posts
9 Oct 2013 5:28PM
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evlPanda said..

Macroscien said..
There was time yesterday when official patrol boat stop and stood for almost an hour in the middle of our busy at the time WS KS spot carefully observing what everybody is doing (at Train G.C).


There's a 40 knot speed limit in the general Broadwater, where you were.

...I have to admit I might very well frame this speeding fine if I received it. Especially if it were a good photo.



watch your mail box







Carantoc
WA, 5551 posts
9 Oct 2013 3:42PM
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I don't know - but I think it is more like 4 knot speed limit on the Broadwater.

I assume it is probably a simple typo from evlPanda, but then Macroscien accepts the 40 knots and even photoshops a 43 knots and 40 knots onto a speeding ticket.

I know it is the Gold Coast and all that, but I would have to question a 40 knot limit before I started photoshoping speed tickets for comic effect.


I think I might be getting the idea where an 8m2 in 25 knots comes from.







(2.5 knots, not 25 knots)

Macroscien
QLD, 6290 posts
9 Oct 2013 6:04PM
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Carantoc said..

I don't know - but I think it is more like 4 knot speed limit on the Broadwater.

I assume it is probably a simple typo from evlPanda, but then Macroscien accepts the 40 knots and even photoshops a 43 knots and 40 knots onto a speeding ticket.

I know it is the Gold Coast and all that, but I would have to question a 40 knot limit before I started photoshoping speed tickets for comic effect.


I think I might be getting the idea where an 8m2 in 25 knots comes from.







(2.5 knots, not 25 knots)






Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
9 Oct 2013 5:50PM
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Common problem when WSer tries to pass a KSer by sneeking past downwind and the KSer decides to boost, he's suddenly chucked DW into the WSer who can't see him at this point.

Mistral Nick
QLD, 353 posts
9 Oct 2013 8:23PM
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Carantoc said..

I don't know - but I think it is more like 4 knot speed limit on the Broadwater.

I assume it is probably a simple typo from evlPanda, but then Macroscien accepts the 40 knots and even photoshops a 43 knots and 40 knots onto a speeding ticket.

I know it is the Gold Coast and all that, but I would have to question a 40 knot limit before I started photoshoping speed tickets for comic effect.


I think I might be getting the idea where an 8m2 in 25 knots comes from.







(2.5 knots, not 25 knots)


Actually Macro is correct, and not a Panda typo, and where it isn't 40 knts it is 6knts in regulated areas, and although I would love to smash the 40 I doubt whether I will ever get an infrigement.

ggh
VIC, 190 posts
9 Oct 2013 9:49PM
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Beaglebuddy said..

Common problem when WSer tries to pass a KSer by sneeking past downwind and the KSer decides to boost, he's suddenly chucked DW into the WSer who can't see him at this point.


I think this is the most common issue and i think least understood assuming your talking about being on the same tack . The leeward board has right of way , the kiter who is about to boost has a duty of care to confirm visablity prior to boosting and should another board be down wind then they are required to give way .

Overtaking up wind is always the best option and should the two boards be close enough than I think the WS has a duty of care to overtake to windward placing him /her in a safe position espeacally if you are getting close to the beach where you know kites are going to boost . However due to the Kites massive foot print the ws may be to far downwind in the first place to be able to overtake to windward its tehnically impossible. In this case I think the WS has every right to be there and has ROW .

Mark _australia
WA, 20747 posts
9 Oct 2013 7:41PM
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Beaglebuddy said..
Common problem when WSer tries to pass a KSer by sneeking past downwind and the KSer decides to boost, he's suddenly chucked DW into the WSer who can't see him at this point.


Overtaking vessel has to keep clear. So the overtaking windsurfer must keep clear. But that does not account for jumps as sailboats didn't do that years ago, so it falls back to avoiding collisions even if you have right of way.

We all look before we turn (don't we ) so they need to look before boosting. Done.

Do they, however......?

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
9 Oct 2013 7:45PM
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Really people need to be more aware of what the other guy is likely to do. In this situation the WSer often is completely taken by surprise claiming the kiter came out of no where and slammed into him, the WSer may have the right of way but he approached the KSer from behind in his blind spot and if he were more aware he would have known that the KSer was likely to boost right into him at just that moment.
I have the right of way in a crosswalk but I look both ways before entering.
At Kanaha Maui which is the busiest spot the kiters are all segregated DW of the WSers for good reason.

chuckmaui
NSW, 50 posts
10 Oct 2013 7:42AM
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At Kanaha Maui which is the busiest spot the kiters are all segregated DW of the WSers for good reason.
???

Ahh..... if only it were true, how nice and safe that would be. Reality does not agree.

Kazza
TAS, 2334 posts
10 Oct 2013 10:41AM
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So all good reason's why KS should sail DW of WSer's in my view still. Sorry guys but I can't agree with the Starboard tack rule still with KS & WS, yes with other windsurfers, sailboats, speedboats etc etc but these kite lines I find the major difference. I'll stick to the rules but I don't like it if I get injured from this rule I shall not be a very happy chappy (girl)
.

evlPanda
NSW, 9136 posts
10 Oct 2013 11:34AM
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Macroscien said..

evlPanda said..

Macroscien said..
There was time yesterday when official patrol boat stop and stood for almost an hour in the middle of our busy at the time WS KS spot carefully observing what everybody is doing (at Train G.C).


There's a 40 knot speed limit in the general Broadwater, where you were.

...I have to admit I might very well frame this speeding fine if I received it. Especially if it were a good photo.



watch your mail box





Gotta catch me first.



Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
10 Oct 2013 3:48PM
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chuckmaui said..

At Kanaha Maui which is the busiest spot the kiters are all segregated DW of the WSers for good reason.
???

Ahh..... if only it were true, how nice and safe that would be. Reality does not agree.


Well, they're supposed to stay DW

John340
QLD, 2425 posts
10 Oct 2013 7:31PM
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The following is copied directly from the Kitesurfing entry in Wikipedia

Kite High Rule - A kiter who is upwind (closest to the wind) must keep their kite high to avoid their lines crossing those of downwind kiters. Similarly, the downwind kiter must keep their kite low to avoid their lines crossing upwind kites. This applies regardless of whether kiters are on the same, or opposing courses.

Clearance Rule - A kiter while jumping must have a clear safety zone of at least 50m downwind because they will move downwind during the jump. A rider must also have a clear safety zone of 30m upwind to jump as his lines could touch the kite or the lines of another rider kiteboarding close by (see Kite High rule). It's important to also consider potential hazards downwind and crosswind of the rider such as people, buildings, trees and other fixed obstacles.

Kiters are also considered as sailing vessels – so some standard sailing rules apply such as:

Starboard Rule When kiters approach from opposite directions the kiter who has the wind on the starboard (right side, right leg/arm leads in direction of travel) has right of way. The kiter who has the wind on the port side (left side, left leg/arm are leads in direction of travel) shall keep out of the way of the other. In simple terms, this means "keep right" with the kiter coming in the opposite direction passing on the left.

This seams to cover all the bases. Its a pity they are not followed universally

Kazza
TAS, 2334 posts
10 Oct 2013 9:01PM
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Places I've been Maui, Geralton, Coro's, spot X, the kiters seem all kite DW of WS. Crowded spots, so why doesn't this happen at "the train" on the GC? Sounds really dangerous there.

Windxtasy
WA, 3912 posts
13 Oct 2013 6:06PM
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I have on a couple of occasions been on starboard tack heading directly toward another sailor and have chosen to go downwind of them even though I have the right to go upwind. On at least one occasion I was subplaning and didn't feel I could safely get upwind enough to stay clear of the other sailor if they held their line.
If you are on starboard tack do you have to stay upwind, or do you have the right to choose your course?

DunkO
NSW, 1075 posts
13 Oct 2013 9:31PM
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Windxtasy said...
I have on a couple of occasions been on starboard tack heading directly toward another sailor and have chosen to go downwind of them even though I have the right to go upwind. On at least one occasion I was subplaning and didn't feel I could safely get upwind enough to stay clear of the other sailor if they held their line.
If you are on starboard tack do you have to stay upwind, or do you have the right to choose your course?


Neither, you maintain your coarse and the vessel on port alters theirs

windsurftom
NSW, 291 posts
14 Oct 2013 1:14AM
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Chris6791 said..

stehsegler said..

I thought the rule was kiters always go down wind of another water user due to their lines and if they go upwind they should keep at least 1 1/2 line lengths distance to who ever is down wind.




Not really, the same starboard rule applies but the Kiter upwind needs to fly his kite high to clear the sailor coming the other way. Kiter-Kiter or Kiter-Poley can safely pass within a few feet of each other if the starboard rule applies and upwind flies high and downwind flies low.


To pass within a few feet of each other you have to make an assumption that the person upwind is competent and completely in control. Unfortunately I have sailed with enough incompetent kiters that unless I know them or have been watching them I will stay out of striking distance downwind. Fortunately I don't sail where its crowded but if I was on port with a line of unknown kiters crossing me upwind it would be very hard to pick my way through the line upwind.
Alot of the kiters I have sailed with will also let me pass upwind on port if it is gonna be close for safety. But this can add to the confusion.



stehsegler
WA, 3250 posts
14 Oct 2013 8:32AM
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Kazza said..

Places I've been Maui, Geralton, Coro's, spot X, the kiters seem all kite DW of WS. Crowded spots, so why doesn't this happen at "the train" on the GC? Sounds really dangerous there.


Don't know about Gero or spot x but on Maui and at Coros there are designated launch zones for kite boarders. At Coronation there is a small stretch of grass (or at least there used to be) where people can rig their kites.

That said the real issue seems to mainly arise from beginner to intermediate level for both kite boarders and windsurfers. I think especially intermediate level are most at risk to cause harm to themselves and others. And yes, this goes for both windsurfers and kite boarders.

MikeyS
VIC, 1496 posts
14 Oct 2013 2:26PM
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DunkO said..

Windxtasy said...
I have on a couple of occasions been on starboard tack heading directly toward another sailor and have chosen to go downwind of them even though I have the right to go upwind. On at least one occasion I was subplaning and didn't feel I could safely get upwind enough to stay clear of the other sailor if they held their line.
If you are on starboard tack do you have to stay upwind, or do you have the right to choose your course?


Neither, you maintain your coarse and the vessel on port alters theirs


Not completely correct. Yes, the default is that you maintain your course (Rule 17(a)(i)), but you are allowed to alter your course to avoid a collision "as soon it as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules". (Rule 17(a)(ii)). And 17(b) "When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision."

Rule 8 also says "(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case
admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided."

If you have made a change of course well before there is a risk of collision, then the starboard rule doesn't even have to come into play.

What you have done is fine, as long as your change in direction is going to be readily apparent to the other sailor and is done in good time.

Kazza
TAS, 2334 posts
14 Oct 2013 5:37PM
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T

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windsurftom said..


Chris6791 said..

stehsegler said..

I thought the rule was kiters always go down wind of another water user due to their lines and if they go upwind they should keep at least 1 1/2 line lengths distance to who ever is down wind.




Not really, the same starboard rule applies but the Kiter upwind needs to fly his kite high to clear the sailor coming the other way. Kiter-Kiter or Kiter-Poley can safely pass within a few feet of each other if the starboard rule applies and upwind flies high and downwind flies low.


To pass within a few feet of each other you have to make an assumption that the person upwind is competent and completely in control. Unfortunately I have sailed with enough incompetent kiters that unless I know them or have been watching them I will stay out of striking distance downwind. Fortunately I don't sail where its crowded but if I was on port with a line of unknown kiters crossing me upwind it would be very hard to pick my way through the line upwind.
Alot of the kiters I have sailed with will also let me pass upwind on port if it is gonna be close for safety. But this can add to the confusion.





Totally agree. On Green Island the day before the Nationals everyone was out for a pre race windsurf sail, the tide was out and there was a not so in control, intermediate kiteboarder kiting around everyone. When sailing on port tack it was terrifying me because he looked as though he could wipe you out going passed him and you couldn't get upwind of him because he was right next to the low tide reef, too low for windsufing fins. This happened on Starboard tack too.

Shark Slayer
VIC, 56 posts
15 Oct 2013 8:55AM
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2 more rules to consider - any vessel must give way to a vessel - restricted in ability to manouver & a vessel constrained by drought .

evlPanda
NSW, 9136 posts
15 Oct 2013 12:41PM
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I'd hate to be a beginner and reading this thread.

If in doubt give way

sboardcrazy
NSW, 7388 posts
15 Oct 2013 1:02PM
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modi said..

2 more rules to consider - any vessel must give way to a vessel - restricted in ability to manouver & a vessel constrained by drought .

I'm assuming it's cars that would have to give way..

DunkO
NSW, 1075 posts
15 Oct 2013 10:14PM
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MikeyS said..

DunkO said..

Windxtasy said...
I have on a couple of occasions been on starboard tack heading directly toward another sailor and have chosen to go downwind of them even though I have the right to go upwind. On at least one occasion I was subplaning and didn't feel I could safely get upwind enough to stay clear of the other sailor if they held their line.
If you are on starboard tack do you have to stay upwind, or do you have the right to choose your course?


Neither, you maintain your coarse and the vessel on port alters theirs


Not completely correct. Yes, the default is that you maintain your course (Rule 17(a)(i)), but you are allowed to alter your course to avoid a collision "as soon it as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules". (Rule 17(a)(ii)). And 17(b) "When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision."

Rule 8 also says "(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case
admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided."

If you have made a change of course well before there is a risk of collision, then the starboard rule doesn't even have to come into play.

What you have done is fine, as long as your change in direction is going to be readily apparent to the other sailor and is done in good time.



I crashed at 17(a)(ii)

Mark _australia
WA, 20747 posts
15 Oct 2013 8:29PM
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evlPanda said..
I'd hate to be a beginner and reading this thread.If in doubt give way


Bad advice. If both bear away they hit. If both round up, they hit.
Beginners NEED to read this and simply realise there ARE rules and they should investigate.
Seems one particular sport does not believe in them and the beginners to intermediates are oblivious.

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
16 Oct 2013 12:56AM
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Mark _australia said..

evlPanda said..
I'd hate to be a beginner and reading this thread.If in doubt give way


Bad advice. If both bear away they hit. If both round up, they hit.
Beginners NEED to read this and simply realise there ARE rules and they should investigate.
Seems one particular sport does not believe in them and the beginners to intermediates are oblivious.


Very much agreed - bad advice was given.
One shouldn't get on water not knowing the rules.
Have seen many near misses based on the advice above - both novices panicking and giving way... both to leeward.
(Hope the missus is not reading this...)



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"Windsurfer hit and killed by kiter" started by seanhogan