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different stance with seat harness?

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Created by Francone > 9 months ago, 8 Oct 2016
Francone
WA, 208 posts
8 Oct 2016 4:17PM
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Is there a difference stance for the seat harness? If I look at waist harnesses it it looks like the legs are more straight and the body more extended outward, whereas with a seat harness, which I tried for the forst time only recently, I feel my body dangling straight down, towards the inside of the board and I can't keep the legs as straight as with the waist harness. Thet are both bent.

Thanks

Francone

Von
SA, 91 posts
8 Oct 2016 6:34PM
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Did you use longer lines? The hook is lower on a seat. I can't use a waist harness as I feel that I have no leverage.

clarence
TAS, 844 posts
8 Oct 2016 8:06PM
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I find that with a seat harness it is hard to use "standard" length harness lines. I get a little confused regarding advice for harness lines, as it seems impossible to make them work with a seat harness. I mainly sail a raceboard, so I am still not sure whether this is an issue of the board/sailing style, or the harness itself.

Seems like most of the "rules of thumb" and advice these days relates to freeride/shortboards, and presumably waist harnesses

Another question is how many sailors are using seat harnesses (and longboards ).

In reply to the original question, in my humble opinion I would think the stance with a seat harness is fairly different- or at least it allows for a quite different stance compared to a waist harness.

Clarence

Francone
WA, 208 posts
8 Oct 2016 8:25PM
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Von said..
Did you use longer lines? The hook is lower on a seat. I can't use a waist harness as I feel that I have no leverage.




No leverage. This is exactly what I feel. Still a lot better than without it, though !

Right now the boom is at around shoulder level and the lines loop is about 30" or 15 " from boom to hook, which corresponds to the usual the rule of thumb,( forearm+ extended palm) .
Longer lines would fall below the hook and I'd have to raise the boom to chin level or more , which may be a bit on the high side for control.
May be this way will allow to straighten the legs a little more and extend the body more outwards, for more leverage.
I hear that the settings are just right when you start feeling a bit more suspended . Is this true?

I have a slight belly and a waist harness is rather uncomfortable. It has been suggested that a seat harness is much better, which it is. So really I had no choice.

I'll keep trying different adjustments, but unfortunately, it won't be before another eight long months, because the season is over here, in this beautiful, but frigid part of the world...

Francone .

MarkSSC
QLD, 341 posts
8 Oct 2016 10:47PM
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Downforce is the magic word. The harness lines enable us to hang off the boom, rather than lean outboard. Check out Guy Cribb's website for his articles on technique. He has a lot of good stuff on what you are talking about, and being a professional coach he has a lot more credentials than us average joes.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6499 posts
10 Oct 2016 10:57AM
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Francone said..

Von said..
Did you use longer lines? The hook is lower on a seat. I can't use a waist harness as I feel that I have no leverage.





No leverage. This is exactly what I feel. Still a lot better than without it, though !

Right now the boom is at around shoulder level and the lines loop is about 30" or 15 " from boom to hook, which corresponds to the usual the rule of thumb,( forearm+ extended palm) .
Longer lines would fall below the hook and I'd have to raise the boom to chin level or more , which may be a bit on the high side for control.
May be this way will allow to straighten the legs a little more and extend the body more outwards, for more leverage.
I hear that the settings are just right when you start feeling a bit more suspended . Is this true?

I have a slight belly and a waist harness is rather uncomfortable. It has been suggested that a seat harness is much better, which it is. So really I had no choice.

I'll keep trying different adjustments, but unfortunately, it won't be before another eight long months, because the season is over here, in this beautiful, but frigid part of the world...

Francone .


Shoulder level boom is pretty low..?

sailquik
VIC, 4488 posts
10 Oct 2016 11:06AM
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sboardcrazy said..

Shoulder level boom is pretty low..?


It's not a good way to compare boom height with other sailors because the type of sail, the comparative clew height, and the rake angle when sailing all make quite a big difference. If you are sailing a wave sail or Freestyle sail and board with a more upright stance you will probably want the boom lower in comparison to a slalom sail with a lower clew and raked right back on a fast reach.

Shifu
QLD, 1068 posts
10 Oct 2016 11:33AM
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Long lines and a seat harness = goodness.

Windxtasy
WA, 3870 posts
10 Oct 2016 9:46AM
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with a seat harness you have to push your weight out into the harness by straightening your legs and pushing your bum out - "arse" as Guy Cribb calls it.
After a good session you should feel fatigue in your quads and gluteal muscles from doing that.
You do not sit down in the harness. The force is still outwards (but because of vectors there is an automatic downforce component as well - as long as your boom is higher than the harness hook)

Francone
WA, 208 posts
15 Oct 2016 1:32AM
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Windxtasy said..
with a seat harness you have to push your weight out into the harness by straightening your legs and pushing your bum out - "arse" as Guy Cribb calls it.
After a good session you should feel fatigue in your quads and gluteal muscles from doing that.
You do not sit down in the harness. The force is still outwards (but because of vectors there is an automatic downforce component as well - as long as your boom is higher than the harness hook)


Excellent clarification. I was sitting down on the seat harness hence my legs were touching the board vertically, considerably bent,which prevented my body from extending more outwards as it should.
Of course, it would help if I had foot-straps, but my Bic WindSup doesn't have them.
In buying the WindSup, I traded off the better planing capability of the shortboards for a better subplaning performance and much much more stability , also a lot more T.O.W. I can easily sail away now with 10-12 knts winds and an old 6.2 sail ( N.P. Garda), whereas with all the shortboards I had, even an 8.5 would hardly move the board. Quite a pleasant change.

Moreover, judging from the considerably better performance of the board with the harness the few times I used it, albeit still not entirely correctly, I haven't given up on planing, because I'm picking up more and more speed and for a couple of times, if it was not for the choppy water and the continuous bobbing up and down and nose-dipping of the board, I am sure I came very close to planing.

I'll have to wait until the next season, though, because this season is over here. Too bad!

Francone

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2330 posts
15 Oct 2016 6:33AM
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Hey Francone, I've only ever learnt to sail using a seat harness and have never used a waist harness. I use quite wide boards so my method is I sit in my harness and bend my legs to kick the board downwind a little and onto the plane, this puts downforce onto the mast base in the centre of the board which levels it out and then lifts weight off the tail at the same time. Once I've done this to kick the board onto the plane I then straighten my legs out a bit and lean outwards to load up the fin whilst still keeping downforce on the harness lines. Like Windxtasy says, your quads and glutes will be working and you'll know it when you finish up for the day.

Francone
WA, 208 posts
15 Oct 2016 9:33AM
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Paddles B'mere said..
... I then straighten my legs out a bit and lean outwards to load up the fin whilst still keeping downforce on the harness lines.


Loading up the fin. though, might be harder with a long board like the 11’6” Bic WindSup: : even by standing back as much as possible and sliding the mast all the way back in the rail ( which is not always appropriate) you are always too far from the fin to control it with the feet, at least a couple of ft away from it, also because the mast-track in the Bic is short, definitely much shorter than on shortboards. I guess I have to live with it!

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2330 posts
15 Oct 2016 12:24PM
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I understand what you're saying, it's probably a bit different on a long board compared to a short board but any sideways load against the rig will still load up the fin and the board rail.

grich62
QLD, 523 posts
15 Oct 2016 3:22PM
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clarence said..
I find that with a seat harness it is hard to use "standard" length harness lines. I get a little confused regarding advice for harness lines, as it seems impossible to make them work with a seat harness. I mainly sail a raceboard, so I am still not sure whether this is an issue of the board/sailing style, or the harness itself.

Seems like most of the "rules of thumb" and advice these days relates to freeride/shortboards, and presumably waist harnesses

Another question is how many sailors are using seat harnesses (and longboards ).

In reply to the original question, in my humble opinion I would think the stance with a seat harness is fairly different- or at least it allows for a quite different stance compared to a waist harness.

Clarence


i used a seat harness on my long boards ,find it works well just always have to unhook to adjust mast position.i also use long harness lines and boom about shoulder height ,you can pull more weight down and keep mast upright. everyone i see with a waist harness tend to have the mast over to windward and sheet out when gust hit.i also think a high boom effects mast bend the draw back with a seat harness ,is trying to hook up and when catapulted, its worse

Francone
WA, 208 posts
15 Oct 2016 2:23PM
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Paddles B'mere said..
I understand what you're saying, it's probably a bit different on a long board compared to a short board but any sideways load against the rig will still load up the fin and the board rail.


What do you mean by " sideways load against the rig" ? Do you mean banking on the rail? Which one, windward rail ( like when you tack upwind) or leeward rail?

Francone



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