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Does sail loose performance over time due to stretch?

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Created by hotlap A week ago, 20 Feb 2021
hotlap
54 posts
20 Feb 2021 4:56AM
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Do you feel that race sail loose performance over time due to stretch?

I just notice that sail sail stretched over time ,by I cant tell the differenece in handling?

Can even pro sailor feel this difference, who tells that new sail is faster than old one?

TRIMMER
QLD, 186 posts
20 Feb 2021 8:02AM
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hotlap said..
Do you feel that race sail loose performance over time due to stretch?

I just notice that sail sail stretched over time ,by I cant tell the differenece in handling?

Can even pro sailor feel this difference, who tells that new sail is faster than old one?


The mast gets softer with age/use and change feel of sail. Sail materials can stretch and shrink depending on time exposed to heat and pressure but the mast is where most of the change to the feel of a sail will be.
New mast=new feel

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
20 Feb 2021 6:59PM
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In my experience, this was more of a problem in the distant past with woven sailcloth. With the current films and scrims, there is very little stretch over time.

I cant say I have personally noticed any softening of my Carbon Masts over years of use, but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened.

hotlap
54 posts
20 Feb 2021 5:40PM
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sailquik said..
In my experience, this was more of a problem in the distant past with woven sailcloth. With the current films and scrims, there is very little stretch over time.

I cant say I have personally noticed any softening of my Carbon Masts over years of use, but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened.


I have race sail from 2007 ,it is strecthed,damaged at lots places, but to me it is still good..
I dont see any difference in handling/ performance compare to new sails..

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
20 Feb 2021 8:54PM
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hotlap said..
I have race sail from 2007 ,it is strecthed,damaged at lots places, but to me it is still good..
I dont see any difference in handling/ performance compare to new sails..



You probably mean that you cant notice that it has lost performance, and it may really not have, for sure.

But, I have to say that new Race/Slalom sails are generally an improvement over older models, as development keeps advancing the art.

hotlap
54 posts
21 Feb 2021 2:32AM
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sailquik said..


hotlap said..
I have race sail from 2007 ,it is strecthed,damaged at lots places, but to me it is still good..
I dont see any difference in handling/ performance compare to new sails..





You probably mean that you cant notice that it has lost performance, and it may really not have, for sure.

But, I have to say that new Race/Slalom sails are generally an improvement over older models, as development keeps advancing the art.



you think that slalom sail from 2020 is faster then slalom sail from 2010? same board,same fin same sailor mass/height

LeeD
2286 posts
21 Feb 2021 3:29AM
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No, they last forever, giving State of the Art performance, decade after decade, century after century, even if they are used 75 days a year.

Ben1973
543 posts
21 Feb 2021 3:55AM
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ive had the Severne overdrive m1,2,3 and 4 and everyone has felt better than the previous even though sometimes the only difference is colour so I guess they do deteriorate with age.

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
21 Feb 2021 8:31AM
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Ben1973 said..

ive had the Severne overdrive m1,2,3 and 4 and everyone has felt better than the previous even though sometimes the only difference is colour so I guess they do deteriorate with age.


And you know the only difference was the colour, how

BSN101
WA, 1896 posts
21 Feb 2021 6:23AM
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Stretch is getting better with age. Lol

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
21 Feb 2021 10:13AM
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hotlap said..
you think that slalom sail from 2020 is faster then slalom sail from 2010? same board,same fin same sailor mass/height



I think you would be very hard pressed to find one that was not 'faster' after 10 years of evolution.

"Faster' is a very general term when it comes to windsurfing sails, but it generally means 'better' in ways that make it faster overall or easier to sail fast.

I certainly KNOW that the sails I use now are noticeably better than the ones I had new in 2010 (same brand). That is because I have kept a few of my favouite sails from 2009/2010 (and other years) as a reference. And yes, when I compare them now, the 2021 sails are better, without any doubt.

hotlap
54 posts
21 Feb 2021 3:40PM
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sailquik said..

hotlap said..
you think that slalom sail from 2020 is faster then slalom sail from 2010? same board,same fin same sailor mass/height




I think you would be very hard pressed to find one that was not 'faster' after 10 years of evolution.

"Faster' is a very general term when it comes to windsurfing sails, but it generally means 'better' in ways that make it faster overall or easier to sail fast.

I certainly KNOW that the sails I use now are noticeably better than the ones I had new in 2010 (same brand). That is because I have kept a few of my favouite sails from 2009/2010 (and other years) as a reference. And yes, when I compare them now, the 2021 sails are better, without any doubt.


hm I allways think this is just marketing,because aerodynamics rules are not changed over time...

hotlap
54 posts
21 Feb 2021 3:40PM
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sailquik said..

hotlap said..
you think that slalom sail from 2020 is faster then slalom sail from 2010? same board,same fin same sailor mass/height




I think you would be very hard pressed to find one that was not 'faster' after 10 years of evolution.

"Faster' is a very general term when it comes to windsurfing sails, but it generally means 'better' in ways that make it faster overall or easier to sail fast.

I certainly KNOW that the sails I use now are noticeably better than the ones I had new in 2010 (same brand). That is because I have kept a few of my favouite sails from 2009/2010 (and other years) as a reference. And yes, when I compare them now, the 2021 sails are better, without any doubt.


hm I allways think this is just marketing,because aerodynamics rules are not changed over time...

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
21 Feb 2021 9:11PM
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hotlap said..

hm I allways think this is just marketing,because aerodynamics rules are not changed over time...




If that was the case, they would have been perfect from the start in 1970's

No, we learn stuff and refine stuff all the time. materials improve and we learn how to apply them in different ways. For instance, carbon batten material has become more affordable in the last 10 years and that has enabled the use of stiffer battens which has an impact on sail design.

Also board and fin design changes and advances lead to sail changes to accomidate that and work with it.

There is no one optimum design of board sail or fin in isolation. The combination has to go together to complement everything. Old sails may not work as well with new boards and fins. Old Boards don't work so well with newer design sails. As faster boards are designed, it changes the apparent wind speed over the sail and needs the sails to change. Etc, etc.

In the last ten years aspect ratios on slalom sails got lower. This went somewhat against classic aerodynamic theory for efficiency, but we found that there were other benefits that outweighed that in practice. Etc, etc.

hotlap
54 posts
21 Feb 2021 7:13PM
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sailquik said..

hotlap said..

hm I allways think this is just marketing,because aerodynamics rules are not changed over time...





If that was the case, they would have been perfect from the start in 1970's

No, we learn stuff and refine stuff all the time. materials improve and we learn how to apply them in different ways. For instance, carbon batten material has become more affordable in the last 10 years and that has enabled the use of stiffer battens which has an impact on sail design.

Also board and fin design changes and advances lead to sail changes to accomidate that and work with it.

There is no one optimum design of board sail or fin in isolation. The combination has to go together to complement everything. Old sails may not work as well with new boards and fins. Old Boards don't work so well with newer design sails. As faster boards are designed, it changes the apparent wind speed over the sail and needs the sails to change. Etc, etc.

In the last ten years aspect ratios on slalom sails got lower. This went somewhat against classic aerodynamic theory for efficiency, but we found that there were other benefits that outweighed that in practice. Etc, etc.


You think sail evolution is infintite or we will reach soon top of mountain,so we cant get higher than that?
Because what else we can do?..hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
22 Feb 2021 1:23AM
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hotlap said..
You think sail evolution is infintite or we will reach soon top of mountain,so we cant get higher than that?
Because what else we can do?..hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?



The answer might be in what I already said.

Maybe there is no answer

I dont have the crystal ball. Who knows?

Could you, or anyone, have predicted the current state of the art 40 years ago .
Is there and such thing as perfection
Is there any point in seeking improvements in anything
Is there any point in windsurfing at all
What is the meaning of life anyhow

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
22 Feb 2021 1:33AM
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hotlap said..

.hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?



I ask you. Can you give us a reasoned explanation if these two claims by you. You seem very perdantic about them so you must have some very good aerodynamic and/or engineering reasons for such big claims.

Enlighten us

hotlap
54 posts
21 Feb 2021 11:03PM
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sailquik said..

hotlap said..

.hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?




I ask you. Can you give us a reasoned explanation if these two claims by you. You seem very perdantic about them so you must have some very good aerodynamic and/or engineering reasons for such big claims.

Enlighten us


If it works,reflex will be still here.Isnt it?
Very logic to me..

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
22 Feb 2021 11:32AM
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hotlap said..



sailquik said..




hotlap said..

.hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?







I ask you. Can you give us a reasoned explanation if these two claims by you. You seem very perdantic about them so you must have some very good aerodynamic and/or engineering reasons for such big claims.

Enlighten us





If it works,reflex will be still here.Isnt it?
Very logic to me..



FAIL! The "I can't see it, therefore it doesn't exist" argument, is not a reasoned explantion, and is not logic.

There are many reasons why the execution of a sail design changes. The most simple probablility is that the designer found a way to get the same advantages in a simpler way with less complication and cost. Do you know what 'reflex' refers to?

Can you explain for us please why a Hard Wing can't work on a windsurfer?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 7237 posts
22 Feb 2021 1:17PM
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Ben1973 said..

ive had the Severne overdrive m1,2,3 and 4 and everyone has felt better than the previous even though sometimes the only difference is colour so I guess they do deteriorate with age.


Most of my ODs are from 2017 but I upgrade my Turbos every year. Since 2019 I've noticed the design is more powerful . The 2021s are definitely gruntier and handle a great wind range..

John340
QLD, 2221 posts
22 Feb 2021 2:11PM
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sailquik said..

hotlap said..
You think sail evolution is infintite or we will reach soon top of mountain,so we cant get higher than that?
Because what else we can do?..hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?




The answer might be in what I already said.

Maybe there is no answer

I dont have the crystal ball. Who knows?

Could you, or anyone, have predicted the current state of the art 40 years ago .
Is there and such thing as perfection
Is there any point in seeking improvements in anything
Is there any point in windsurfing at all
What is the meaning of life anyhow


Daffy, according to Deep Thought in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer to the meaning of life, universe and everything is 42, knots!

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
22 Feb 2021 7:25PM
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John340 said..
Daffy, according to Deep Thought in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer to the meaning of life, universe and everything is 42, knots!





LOL! Of course! I realised that many years ago John.

segler
800 posts
23 Feb 2021 12:22AM
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Sailworks is probably as good as it gets when we talk about innovation, development, improvement, etc., of their sails. Bruce and crew are right there at the forefront. So, yes, in general, their newer sails are better, faster, more durable, etc., than their older sails. We all hope so.

That said, my 1999-vintage Sailworks XT Racing slalom sails are every bit as fast as the newer NX lines. In my non-expert hands, that it. Of course, Sailworks team riders can easily tell the differences.

I am still using my old XT sails for foiling for the simple reasons that they work well, and just do not die. Bomb-proof without being overly heavy. They just work. Bruce tells me he was looking at the XT shapes when he designed the Flyer sails.

hotlap
54 posts
23 Feb 2021 1:31AM
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John340 said..

sailquik said..


hotlap said..
You think sail evolution is infintite or we will reach soon top of mountain,so we cant get higher than that?
Because what else we can do?..hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?





The answer might be in what I already said.

Maybe there is no answer

I dont have the crystal ball. Who knows?

Could you, or anyone, have predicted the current state of the art 40 years ago .
Is there and such thing as perfection
Is there any point in seeking improvements in anything
Is there any point in windsurfing at all
What is the meaning of life anyhow



Daffy, according to Deep Thought in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer to the meaning of life, universe and everything is 42, knots!


Translate on english?

John340
QLD, 2221 posts
23 Feb 2021 7:01AM
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hotlap said..


John340 said..



sailquik said..




hotlap said..
You think sail evolution is infintite or we will reach soon top of mountain,so we cant get higher than that?
Because what else we can do?..hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?







The answer might be in what I already said.

Maybe there is no answer

I dont have the crystal ball. Who knows?

Could you, or anyone, have predicted the current state of the art 40 years ago .
Is there and such thing as perfection
Is there any point in seeking improvements in anything
Is there any point in windsurfing at all
What is the meaning of life anyhow





Daffy, according to Deep Thought in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer to the meaning of life, universe and everything is 42, knots!




Translate on english?



Very hard to explain, I suggest you read the book by Douglas Adams or search Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in Wikipedia

sboardcrazy
NSW, 7237 posts
23 Feb 2021 10:57AM
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John340 said..

hotlap said..



John340 said..




sailquik said..





hotlap said..
You think sail evolution is infintite or we will reach soon top of mountain,so we cant get higher than that?
Because what else we can do?..hard wing dont work for windsurfing...

Do you remember severen reflex system ,dont exist any more, obviusly it was marketing not real improvements?








The answer might be in what I already said.

Maybe there is no answer

I dont have the crystal ball. Who knows?

Could you, or anyone, have predicted the current state of the art 40 years ago .
Is there and such thing as perfection
Is there any point in seeking improvements in anything
Is there any point in windsurfing at all
What is the meaning of life anyhow






Daffy, according to Deep Thought in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer to the meaning of life, universe and everything is 42, knots!





Translate on english?




Very hard to explain, I suggest you read the book by Douglas Adams or search Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in Wikipedia


Ben1973
543 posts
23 Feb 2021 10:10AM
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sailquik said..

Ben1973 said..

ive had the Severne overdrive m1,2,3 and 4 and everyone has felt better than the previous even though sometimes the only difference is colour so I guess they do deteriorate with age.



And you know the only difference was the colour, how


I don't think I need to tell you how just for the sake of it. You'll just have to except that some times people know more than you.

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
23 Feb 2021 5:44PM
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Ben1973 said..
I don't think I need to tell you how just for the sake of it. You'll just have to except that some times people know more than you.





Or not!

I am the first to agree that many people know a helluva lot more than me about many things.

But you made the outrageous claim that is central to the core of the discussion - So you back it up or it is Bullcrap.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that there were only very minor changes made between one year and the next in some years, but, in my experience, it is pretty rare. Even if the intention of the sailmaker was to make no overall change to the shape, there are inevitably at least minor tweaks.

decrepit
WA, 10363 posts
23 Feb 2021 4:31PM
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sailquik said..
Or not!

Well I guess it's possible that Ben 1973, is Mr Severne himself.
That would justify his claim I feel

sailquik
VIC, 5400 posts
23 Feb 2021 8:14PM
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Well that would be easy for him to say, wouldn't it?

Is he? If it is. Why would he be hiding that?



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"Does sail loose performance over time due to stretch?" started by hotlap