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3-4 batten sails in heavy, on-shore conditions

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Created by OnShoreLover 24 days ago, 12 Mar 2020
OnShoreLover
4 posts
12 Mar 2020 10:30PM
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Hi guys,
I am looking for gear guidance and would like to apologise if that topic has been already discussed on the forum - I am new here:)

Let's get to the point. I am a wave sailor from north of Europe (Klitmoller, Sylt, Baltic Sea etc). I am looking for a sail for on-shore to side-shore, gusty conditions in the range of 3,7-4,2 (for 25-30 knots plus). I am interested in Goyas and Ezzys. My main question is - how does Fringe or Taka feel in such conditions? On the one hand, I would love to take advantage of their maneuverability and lightness on waves, but on the other hand maybe the likes of Banzai or even Zeta would guarantee me better "overall" performance (quick plaining, getting through white water with more ease, stability etc). To sum up, how do these 3 and 4-batten sails perform in heavy, onshore conditions? Are they only suited to pure dtl waveriding?

All the very best and see you on the water:)

motogon
19 posts
13 Mar 2020 2:46AM
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Zeta is 5 battens sail. I would suggest look at Ezzy Elite or 2020 Ezzy Wave sails.

LeeD
1238 posts
13 Mar 2020 3:56AM
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# of battens don't matter because you choose the sail based on your power needs.
3 batten sails work better in lighter wind PER SIZE, so you'd choose a 3 batten 4.5 when you need a 5 batten 5.0.

bigdaz
NSW, 250 posts
13 Mar 2020 7:10AM
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In the Ezzy range I would choose the 2020 Ezzy Wave, it is a very stable sail that would perfectly handle those gusty conditions, it has lots of power and is very light in the hands and manoeuvrable. It's what Graham Ezzy uses in the places you mentioned - he chooses that over the Zeta or Taka. I have both the Taka and the Waves, the Taka is not suited to the conditions you mentioned, it is more of a DTL sail, it is quite versatile, but strong gusty onshore is not what it's built for. Hope that helps.

Gestalt
QLD, 12562 posts
13 Mar 2020 7:10AM
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Don't wanna be that guy but the severne blade pro is screaming at you.

OnShoreLover
4 posts
13 Mar 2020 5:53PM
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Thanks for all the tips!!!!

forceten
918 posts
13 Mar 2020 11:11PM
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Sylt, I ve sailed in the North Sea off England, brrrrr.
FWIW, the Taka is my weapon of choice , over the Elite. I do really feel personal preference is the defining regard.
FWIW, on a Hot Sails I prefer the 4 batten QU4D , over the 3 batten,KS3,
point its not the battens .
write :
david @ ezzy.com




NordRoi
292 posts
16 Mar 2020 2:18AM
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I was very skeptical on the taka, I purchased 4.1,4.7 and 5.3. and the 4.1 was a big question mark for me.
I wasn't sure I was doing the good choice and the taka are quite stable even at 4.1 and tend to do better in lulls.

As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually.

However, if you go 3 battens or 3 1/2 as the taka, you can't go from a 4.1 taka to a 4.7 or a 5.0 as Elite and keep the ratio you want between sails, more tricky. My 5.3 for example the 5.3 is almost as powerful as a 5.8 elite, I would say .4 meter more than his size. Of course the 4.1 don't have a 0.4..but probably if you do the math it will a 4.1 = 4.4 elite is my guess. So keep that in mind if you have a quiver of different kind of wave sail and this is my advise for the taka anyways.

OnShoreLover
4 posts
17 Mar 2020 8:42PM
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Select to expand quote
NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...


That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.

obenebo
NSW, 17 posts
18 Mar 2020 3:37AM
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From my experience with Goya, 3 Batten Fringe and 4 Batten Banzai, both 5.0m - I also find the opposite to what has been suggested. The Banzai pulls harder, directly, and is much faster, both in top speed and to get on the plane. A gust hits, and is transferred straight to the board, to me that is a definition of power. By comparison the Fringe is soft, spongey, slow, and forgiving. A gust hits, the sail flexes, you barely feel it, and neither does the board.

For good, powered up wind and wave conditions, or alternatively pure float and ride (non-planing) I go the Fringe. If light/moderate and frustrating, the Banzai will get up and planing when the Fringe won't, and if overpowered, the Banzai will hold it together better too, although the softness of the Fringe makes it pretty easy to handle even when overpowered too.

To me, a smaller Banzai would equate to the power of a bigger Fringe.

obenebo
NSW, 17 posts
18 Mar 2020 3:53AM
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...and to answer your original question, I would think the Banzai would better suit the conditions. If you're lighter weight, the Fringe could also go alright.

LeeD
1238 posts
18 Mar 2020 2:10AM
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Or, you can look to history.
Speed trial sails in 5.0 sizing have more battens, stiffer feel, flex less, and can handle 40 knots of wind.
A 3-4 batten sail of 5.0 sizing is made for 17-22 mph wind and would distort to uncontrollable shape when wind approaches 30.
At the lowest wind range, around 17 mph, which sail would YOU choose?

gorgesailor
283 posts
18 Mar 2020 4:39AM
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Select to expand quote
OnShoreLover said..


NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...




That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.



I don't think you can make blanket statements about batten count. Each brand has a different approach. For instance the Goya fringe is a much different sail to the Hotsails KS3 or the Ezzy Taka. Since Obenebo give his experience Fringe vs Banzai it is probably accurate & reflects Goya's concept, Bigdaz & Nordroi's experience with Ezzy show they have a different approach & I can say from experience Hotsails have another. IMO most of these new wavesails have enough versatility that any of them will work for a variety of conditions but it will come down to feel & preference. Coming from the HSM KS3 I can say that the sail has just as much range as the 5 batten sail, & is actually more firm & precise than one of the 4 batten sails so not what you might think. It is more a matter of draft positioning & the type of power delivery you want when choosing in the HSM range, so you may have similar finding with Ezzy/Goya. That said dedicated onshore rider do tend to have certain preferences, for instance HSM has the PW4 which is a 4 batten that carries power a bit higher up than the KS3 & has less de-power so many onshore guys choose that over the 3 batten KS or the 5 batten Firelight.

forceten
918 posts
18 Mar 2020 7:42AM
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Select to expand quote
OnShoreLover said..

NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...



That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.


3.7 Three batten , to compare to a 4.2 Four or Five is a big stretch, keeping in mind you are starting small, and size increases exponentially, think that the word I want. More like a 3.9-4.0 at most. going up to a 5.0 to start the .5 meter would be more reasonable .
i have a 4.3 Taka, and it equates to a 4.5, all relative to many factors.

Snapfigure
40 posts
18 Mar 2020 7:50PM
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The Taka is so stable that resembles a 5 batten sail I cant understand how they achieved this but it works excellent in the lows and great in the high range It has excellent acceleration unbelievable maneuverability and it feels light The force is to the front great for jumps waveriding I believe it s an excellent choice from 4.5 and above even for onshore .In comparison to the membrane sails it has a clear advantage in gusty cond The only downside IMO is that in light moderate winds you need more power in onshore waveriding the taka due to its nature depowers more. The ezzy wave seems the best choice for onshore from other testimonial (havent tried) and off course 5 batten sails like blade blade pro or other membrane sails.

OnShoreLover
4 posts
18 Mar 2020 8:19PM
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Thank You all, You have been more than helpful:)

Basher
182 posts
18 Mar 2020 9:30PM
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If I can just stick a few extra comments in here:

1) Some sails are more powerful than others. But it's a mistake to assume that sail power is a simple function of batten numbers.

2) Battens add stability to the sail and rigidity. The stability comes from the sail cloth being less able to distort and the taper in the batten encourages the sail drive to stay more locked forward.

3) The power of any sail is mostly a function of sail area, sail fullness, and how tight the leech sets. If the sail is twisted open at the head then this part of the sail is effectively sheeted out. That open leech works well for speed and control but is not as gutsy a setting as you get with a tighter leech sail. A flatter sail will also feel less powerful than a full cut sail. (Ezzy Takas are cut very full!).

4) Because of the above, batten numbers often change the feel of the sail. Different 'feels' suit different sailing needs and are also a matter for personal preference. A 'soft sail', where there is no full length middle batten, allows the sail to depower better at the luff when feathered.

5) In lighter winds, the rig is not under heavy loads and so fewer battens are needed, whereas when you're hanging off a 4.7 then stability and top end are more needed, so extra battens are one answer. This may seem counter-intuitive because bigger sails often have more battens - but there's a big difference between being a slalom and speed sailor from being a recreational sailor who just wants to plane in and out.

forceten
918 posts
18 Mar 2020 10:39PM
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OnShoreLover said..
Thank You all, You have been more than helpful:)


All opinions, it will come down to personal preference. Characteristics differ and knowing your preference will help. It's a slippery slide.

NordRoi
292 posts
19 Mar 2020 12:12AM
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Basher said..
If I can just stick a few extra comments in here:

1) Some sails are more powerful than others. But it's a mistake to assume that sail power is a simple function of batten numbers.

2) Battens add stability to the sail and rigidity. The stability comes from the sail cloth being less able to distort and the taper in the batten encourages the sail drive to stay more locked forward.

3) The power of any sail is mostly a function of sail area, sail fullness, and how tight the leech sets. If the sail is twisted open at the head then this part of the sail is effectively sheeted out. That open leech works well for speed and control but is not as gutsy a setting as you get with a tighter leech sail. A flatter sail will also feel less powerful than a full cut sail. (Ezzy Takas are cut very full!).

4) Because of the above, batten numbers often change the feel of the sail. Different 'feels' suit different sailing needs and are also a matter for personal preference. A 'soft sail', where there is no full length middle batten, allows the sail to depower better at the luff when feathered.

5) In lighter winds, the rig is not under heavy loads and so fewer battens are needed, whereas when you're hanging off a 4.7 then stability and top end are more needed, so extra battens are one answer. This may seem counter-intuitive because bigger sails often have more battens - but there's a big difference between being a slalom and speed sailor from being a recreational sailor who just wants to plane in and out.




I agree, with your statement.

I wonder if by nature, less batten tend to provide more low end, can you take a 5.0 with 0 batten and make it less than a 5.0 with 8 batten?

If a 5.0 with 3 battens sail got less low end than the same brand with 4 or 5 battens, what is the purpose of that sail? If you sacrifice stability, than I assume it's to have the smallest sail in your hand for the same wind speed?

I also assume the goal of the zeta is to have the biggest sail in your hand and go super fast and have a big high end.

gorgesailor
283 posts
19 Mar 2020 1:18AM
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Select to expand quote
NordRoi said..

Basher said..
If I can just stick a few extra comments in here:

1) Some sails are more powerful than others. But it's a mistake to assume that sail power is a simple function of batten numbers.

2) Battens add stability to the sail and rigidity. The stability comes from the sail cloth being less able to distort and the taper in the batten encourages the sail drive to stay more locked forward.

3) The power of any sail is mostly a function of sail area, sail fullness, and how tight the leech sets. If the sail is twisted open at the head then this part of the sail is effectively sheeted out. That open leech works well for speed and control but is not as gutsy a setting as you get with a tighter leech sail. A flatter sail will also feel less powerful than a full cut sail. (Ezzy Takas are cut very full!).

4) Because of the above, batten numbers often change the feel of the sail. Different 'feels' suit different sailing needs and are also a matter for personal preference. A 'soft sail', where there is no full length middle batten, allows the sail to depower better at the luff when feathered.

5) In lighter winds, the rig is not under heavy loads and so fewer battens are needed, whereas when you're hanging off a 4.7 then stability and top end are more needed, so extra battens are one answer. This may seem counter-intuitive because bigger sails often have more battens - but there's a big difference between being a slalom and speed sailor from being a recreational sailor who just wants to plane in and out.





I agree, with your statement.

I wonder if by nature, less batten tend to provide more low end, can you take a 5.0 with 0 batten and make it less than a 5.0 with 8 batten?

If a 5.0 with 3 battens sail got less low end than the same brand with 4 or 5 battens, what is the purpose of that sail? If you sacrifice stability, than I assume it's to have the smallest sail in your hand for the same wind speed?

I also assume the goal of the zeta is to have the biggest sail in your hand and go super fast and have a big high end.


But you don't always sacrifice stability. You may simply change the feel. Many sailmakers offer different models to cater to different preference in feel. As is the case with Hot & it seems Ezzy, the 3 batten sail does not have less range, but offers a different feel.

duzzi
223 posts
19 Mar 2020 7:30AM
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OnShoreLover said..



NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...





That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.




As other have said it really depends on the brand and the sail. My experience when it comes to 2-3 years old sails is with Hot Sails Maui. I owned a 2017 5.0 Quad (bought in 2018), 2019 5.0 Firelight, and 4.9/4.3 KS3. The Quad was by far the worst when it came to high end stability. The leading edge simply got back winded, very disconcerning. It was probably an early model and probably got better. The Firelight, five batten, was fine, no problem sailing overpowered, although it lacked some of the low end that my older firelights had plenty of. And the KS3 ... was the best. It has great low end, and stability when overpowered, and it feels feather light. Go figure why it would be the most stable of them all, but there it is.

The KS3 can also be feathered out very effectively. Open the boom and the S-shaped bottom battens releases a significan amount of wind pressure. You can keep going in bizarrely overpowered conditions . Having said that I am curious to try a 5 batten Point-7 Spy ... I kind of miss the simplicity of a lock down and go sail and it might be better for foiling ...

william
WA, 165 posts
19 Mar 2020 12:42PM
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For P7 the SALT is a great allround wave sail - something to consider great low end and pretty good top end But if you are specifically chasing a sail that remains stable in ( extremely) overpowered situations- the spy would be awesome !! Yiihaaa

Basher
182 posts
19 Mar 2020 7:06PM
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Select to expand quote
gorgesailor said..


NordRoi said..



Basher said..
If I can just stick a few extra comments in here:

1) Some sails are more powerful than others. But it's a mistake to assume that sail power is a simple function of batten numbers.

2) Battens add stability to the sail and rigidity. The stability comes from the sail cloth being less able to distort and the taper in the batten encourages the sail drive to stay more locked forward.

3) The power of any sail is mostly a function of sail area, sail fullness, and how tight the leech sets. If the sail is twisted open at the head then this part of the sail is effectively sheeted out. That open leech works well for speed and control but is not as gutsy a setting as you get with a tighter leech sail. A flatter sail will also feel less powerful than a full cut sail. (Ezzy Takas are cut very full!).

4) Because of the above, batten numbers often change the feel of the sail. Different 'feels' suit different sailing needs and are also a matter for personal preference. A 'soft sail', where there is no full length middle batten, allows the sail to depower better at the luff when feathered.

5) In lighter winds, the rig is not under heavy loads and so fewer battens are needed, whereas when you're hanging off a 4.7 then stability and top end are more needed, so extra battens are one answer. This may seem counter-intuitive because bigger sails often have more battens - but there's a big difference between being a slalom and speed sailor from being a recreational sailor who just wants to plane in and out.







I agree, with your statement.

I wonder if by nature, less batten tend to provide more low end, can you take a 5.0 with 0 batten and make it less than a 5.0 with 8 batten?

If a 5.0 with 3 battens sail got less low end than the same brand with 4 or 5 battens, what is the purpose of that sail? If you sacrifice stability, than I assume it's to have the smallest sail in your hand for the same wind speed?

I also assume the goal of the zeta is to have the biggest sail in your hand and go super fast and have a big high end.




But you don't always sacrifice stability. You may simply change the feel. Many sailmakers offer different models to cater to different preference in feel. As is the case with Hot & it seems Ezzy, the 3 batten sail does not have less range, but offers a different feel.





I'm responding to two quotes here.

A sail's stability can be helped by battens but that is not the ONLY way in which a sail can be made stable

The main way to make a sail stable is to have the luff curve working with the mast bend, so that the head of the sail will open to depower, whilst the lower section of the sail keeps driving you forwards. The head of the sail sheets out automatically at the leech in gusts, without you needing to sheet out.

Softer sails, with no full-length mid batten, can also depower from the luff because with sails like the Ezzy Taka the luff puckers up by the mast when you sheet out. When you sheet in again, the sail 'inflates' giving you more power.

If you took a standard five batten wave sail and made the same-cut sail a four batten one then it would be less stable and might have a more back-handed feel. Whilst the feel of the sail and power delivery would be affected by having less battens, I doubt the sail would get more 'bottom end' to get you planing. It would probably lose a bit of top end stability.

On topic, what tends to happen nowadays is we see five batten sails as being best for top end stability and for going neutral on the wave in cross off conditions. This stability is a great help when faced with the increase in apparent wind once you pick up a wave which drives you at exit speed towards the shore. A soft wave sail can also be good for cross off conditions because it depowers from the luff.
Four batten sails are often more popular for onshore conditions where the constant power and back-handed feel can be good for onshore wave riding.

Nowadays, our preference in wave sails is also affected by board choice. If you have a bigger, floaty wave board (made possible by modern multi fin set ups) then you can often use a smaller rig with the bigger board, meaning that early planing and top end control are less of a concern.



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"3-4 batten sails in heavy, on-shore conditions" started by OnShoreLover