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Race Sail sizes and gap question .

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Created by Tardy 22 days ago, 27 Jun 2019
Tardy
3025 posts
27 Jun 2019 5:45PM
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Looking at buying a couple of race sails in the next few months ..

I am going for a 8,6 ...4 cam ...and a 7.0 4 cam ...do you think I need a 7.8 ?

or is the gap ok ..in my mind of thinking the 8.5 is good for 12-16 knots maybe more .?

and the 7.0 will come in after 16 knots ..

I'm not racing ..just a speed freak ..would i be wasting my money on a 7,8 ..

Imax1
VIC, 2062 posts
27 Jun 2019 8:47PM
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Are they the same brand and model ?
If they are the same , I think the gap is fine .
Thats the sensible answer .
Personally , I'd buy way too much gear that I can't afford and then get confused .
A room full of shovels and then ask an Irishman to take a pik.

kato
VIC, 2496 posts
27 Jun 2019 9:04PM
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I currently run a 7.9 KaRace 4 cam with the next sail down being a 6.6 Koncept 3 cam.
The race is for 15-22 kt seabreezes on a 110 lt board. I rarely use any other sail on this board. I have used this combo at LG in 30 kts. Briefly
The 6.6 is used on a small slalom and speed board. It was a risk having a big gap as I replaced 8.5-7.5-6.6 but for me it's working. Summer breezes are usually 16-22, frontal stuff 25+. It only works as most of my sailing is in flattish water and I like being fully powered.

Tardy
3025 posts
27 Jun 2019 7:07PM
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Select to expand quote
Imax1 said..
Are they the same brand and model ?
If they are the same , I think the gap is fine .
Thats the sensible answer .
Personally , I'd buy way too much gear that I can't afford and then get confused .
A room full of shovels and then ask an Irishman to take a pik.



yes same brand ....yep I'm guilty of buying too much too ...but have been good lately ..had my 8,5 for 5 years now .

sad to say its my most used sail ...holes appearing now ...so no guilt

thanks kato ...sounds like it works for you .I;m 98 kgs .

tonyk
QLD, 43 posts
27 Jun 2019 9:20PM
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Select to expand quote
Tardy said..
Looking at buying a couple of race sails in the next few months ..

I am going for a 8,6 ...4 cam ...and a 7.0 4 cam ...do you think I need a 7.8 ?

or is the gap ok ..in my mind of thinking the 8.5 is good for 12-16 knots maybe more .?

and the 7.0 will come in after 16 knots ..

I'm not racing ..just a speed freak ..would i be wasting my money on a 7,8 ..


I think your plan can work, no need to fill the gap. Speedy stuff on the 7.0 and cruising on the 8.6

Imax1
VIC, 2062 posts
27 Jun 2019 9:44PM
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Out of curiosity , what are u buying ?

mark62
285 posts
27 Jun 2019 8:47PM
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I have NS Warps in all sizes from 5.4 to 9.6 and seven boards. I'm around 100kg, I'm starting to realise that I mostly use just two boards and two sails, SB iS130 and SB Speed W58 (81 litres) and 7.8 and 6.2. As soon as the 7.8 is a handful, I can get the 6.2 out.

Defo sounds like 8.6 and 7 is all you need,

Subsonic
WA, 1652 posts
27 Jun 2019 9:21PM
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Yep, i think youll definitely be fine with just the two. I find there is quite a lot of overlap with my R8s. I could quite realistically do away with two of my sails and i wouldn't lose too much wind range at all (i suppose its also dependant on what boards youve go too)

BSN101
WA, 1620 posts
27 Jun 2019 9:42PM
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Select to expand quote
Tardy said..
Looking at buying a couple of race sails in the next few months ..

I am going for a 8,6 ...4 cam ...and a 7.0 4 cam ...do you think I need a 7.8 ?

or is the gap ok ..in my mind of thinking the 8.5 is good for 12-16 knots maybe more .?

and the 7.0 will come in after 16 knots ..

I'm not racing ..just a speed freak ..would i be wasting my money on a 7,8 ..


Are you foiling too? I'm considering losing my big sail (8.2 twin cam) and foiling instead in these winds on 6.2.

ned321
42 posts
27 Jun 2019 10:54PM
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Really depends on where you live and what conditions prevail, and your weight.

At my home spot, Strand Horst NL, you see a LOT of sessions on 7.8 when there is mediumwind (90+ kg riders).

Hardly any 8.6 sessions, probably because most riders go doing something else when the wind is that light.
I go mountainbiking when there is no wind; and needing to use a 8.6 sail is "no wind" in my book. This is cruising, not speedsurfing.

Of course there are taller and/or heavier speeders for whom these large sails make sense.
Like Edwin Harteveld, who is over 2 metres tall with corresponding bodyweight. He knows how to make a large set go really fast.
I'm "only" 90 kgs, so for me the investment in a really large set does not make sense.

Tardy
3025 posts
28 Jun 2019 3:49AM
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ned321 said..
Really depends on where you live and what conditions prevail, and your weight.

At my home spot, Strand Horst NL, you see a LOT of sessions on 7.8 when there is mediumwind (90+ kg riders).

Hardly any 8.6 sessions, probably because most riders go doing something else when the wind is that light.
I go mountainbiking when there is no wind; and needing to use a 8.6 sail is "no wind" in my book. This is cruising, not speedsurfing.

Of course there are taller and/or heavier speeders for whom these large sails make sense.
Like Edwin Harteveld, who is over 2 metres tall with corresponding bodyweight. He knows how to make a large set go really fast.
I'm "only" 90 kgs, so for me the investment in a really large set does not make sense.


thanks ned ..i've been using a 8,5 for over 7 years now ,and for my conditions its a great size .
I use a fair bit of downhaul on them ,but i can also belly up ...flat water 44 fin and 140 litre patrik ,
I can get going in 12 knots ..I Have been using a no cam sail ,but found the cam sails have a bit more poke
so i'm going down that track .

Tardy
3025 posts
28 Jun 2019 3:59AM
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Imax1 said..
Out of curiosity , what are u buying ?


simmer .I can put RDM Cams on them for my RDM mast .so I can use all my RDM ezzy mast ..

I should of also said i still have my cheetahs ..the 8,5 is looking sad ..worn out .

my aim is to get some sails I can use fully over powered ..and just crank em down instead of changing ..
and of course try for a PB time .

I have used cam sails a lot in the early days ..really enjoyed the top end speed ..

I don't foil ....as yet ..

Maddlad
WA, 330 posts
28 Jun 2019 7:27AM
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BSN101 said..

Tardy said..
Looking at buying a couple of race sails in the next few months ..

I am going for a 8,6 ...4 cam ...and a 7.0 4 cam ...do you think I need a 7.8 ?

or is the gap ok ..in my mind of thinking the 8.5 is good for 12-16 knots maybe more .?

and the 7.0 will come in after 16 knots ..

I'm not racing ..just a speed freak ..would i be wasting my money on a 7,8 ..



Are you foiling too? I'm considering losing my big sail (8.2 twin cam) and foiling instead in these winds on 6.2.


Keep your 8.2 twin cam for foiling in light stuff Dave, especially if you end up using a race or freerace foil setup as the bigger sails help keep pressure on the mast step, and that allows you to power up and go fast without breaching as easily.

BSN101
WA, 1620 posts
28 Jun 2019 1:14PM
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Maddlad said..

BSN101 said..


Tardy said..
Looking at buying a couple of race sails in the next few months ..

I am going for a 8,6 ...4 cam ...and a 7.0 4 cam ...do you think I need a 7.8 ?

or is the gap ok ..in my mind of thinking the 8.5 is good for 12-16 knots maybe more .?

and the 7.0 will come in after 16 knots ..

I'm not racing ..just a speed freak ..would i be wasting my money on a 7,8 ..




Are you foiling too? I'm considering losing my big sail (8.2 twin cam) and foiling instead in these winds on 6.2.



Keep your 8.2 twin cam for foiling in light stuff Dave, especially if you end up using a race or freerace foil setup as the bigger sails help keep pressure on the mast step, and that allows you to power up and go fast without breaching as easily.


Thanks M. It's for my RB too.

powersloshin
NSW, 1017 posts
28 Jun 2019 3:46PM
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Having more sails you can rig the one that suits best, and also you use them less , so i don't think it is economically much more expensive

Tardy
3025 posts
28 Jun 2019 2:38PM
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powersloshin said..
Having more sails you can rig the one that suits best, and also you use them less , so i don't think it is economically much more expensive


I like your way of thinking

7,8 is such a handy size ...

and most 115 litre boards will handle it with EZ...




Steve Charles
TAS, 1096 posts
28 Jun 2019 5:59PM
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It comes down to what boards you have. For this season just gone I had an 8.4, 7.0 and no 7.8. My boards were 140 and 106. The modern 8.4/8.6 can handle a huge wind range. I had no issue going from 140/8.4 to 106/7.0. For next season I am getting a FF115 so will need a 7.7/7.8.

Rob11
202 posts
28 Jun 2019 4:10PM
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Only the smaller sizes are RDM compatible:
"RDM COMPATIBLE // The smaller sizes of the SCR work with a SX10 RDM"

I believe this is the case for most brands that do race sails rdm compatible, up to 7.8 (460 mast).
Any larger and then the sail is a noodle, and loses heaps of grunt, especially for the bigger riders.

Tardy
3025 posts
28 Jun 2019 6:47PM
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Select to expand quote
Rob11 said..
Only the smaller sizes are RDM compatible:
"RDM COMPATIBLE // The smaller sizes of the SCR work with a SX10 RDM"

I believe this is the case for most brands that do race sails rdm compatible, up to 7.8 (460 mast).
Any larger and then the sail is a noodle, and loses heaps of grunt, especially for the bigger riders.


thanks Rob for the info

i have a 490 north SDM CC 100% for the 8,6 ,
the 7,0 SCR takes a 430 .RDM with 3 extra RDM Cams the top one is already the right size .
the 7,8 I would have to use my 460 RDM .91% ,ezzy .brought it last year .

Steve
my slalom boards are 100 115 140.

Imax1
VIC, 2062 posts
28 Jun 2019 10:14PM
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Select to expand quote
Tardy said..

Rob11 said..
Only the smaller sizes are RDM compatible:
"RDM COMPATIBLE // The smaller sizes of the SCR work with a SX10 RDM"

I believe this is the case for most brands that do race sails rdm compatible, up to 7.8 (460 mast).
Any larger and then the sail is a noodle, and loses heaps of grunt, especially for the bigger riders.



thanks Rob for the info

i have a 490 north SDM CC 100% for the 8,6 ,
the 7,0 SCR takes a 430 .RDM with 3 extra RDM Cams the top one is already the right size .
the 7,8 I would have to use my 460 RDM .91% ,ezzy .brought it last year .

Steve
my slalom boards are 100 115 140.


The 140 used most of the time , it's your baby.
The 115 , the best 3 times ever ,
and
the 100 , 3 times in panic damage controll , and didn't have that much fun ?

Steve Charles
TAS, 1096 posts
29 Jun 2019 7:30AM
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Get the 7.8 and you can you it on the 140 as well as the 115.

Basher
66 posts
1 Jul 2019 10:04AM
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Sail gaps are pretty interesting, especially if you look at what kit you want to own in the longer term.
If you simply look a the sail area gap for a power change then in larger sizes you have a much bigger gap than you can for your windy weather/wave sails. So the jump from a 4m to a 4.4 is often right, whereas the jump from a 7m can be straight to an 8m. I'd say the jump from a 7m to an 8.6 is a bit too far, plus it misses out on a 7.8 which is a fun size.

But there are so many other factors to consider.
1) I tend to match sail sizes to boards and you often have a board which is fine with a 7.8 but is overloaded with an 8.6. There's often something wrong with your kit selection of you find that a board you have only works with one sail size. So I'd be also looking at the bigger picture of how many boards and rigs you actually want to own and carry to the beach at one time. .
2) Sails also have to be matched with masts, and any quiver of sails needs to be consolidated, unless you want to own a separate mast for each sail, and that gets very expensive. Boom lengths are also a consideration, because a quality carbon boom for a big rig can blow your budget. .
3) Following on from the above points my biggest sail was always a 7.8 because that was the biggest sail that would fit on a 460 mast, and the 8.6 seemed to need a 490. The 8.6 might also need another boom.
4) If you go too big with your biggest rig then you often find that's a sail you don't want to rig, because it so unwieldy in use, plus it needs the long mast and a longer boom. My biggest rig used to be a 7.8 because that size was still fun to use, whereas an 8.6 wasn't. I'd leave the downhaul a bit slacker if the wind was light, and the tighter leech then got me planing early enough. If the wind was too light for that then I'd go on my bike instead.
6) Another modern option for light wind sailing is to have a foil board, using a 6m rig as your biggest. So you can argue that the outlay for a foil is justified in that you no longer need big sails, masts or a long boom.

John340
QLD, 1945 posts
1 Jul 2019 12:39PM
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I have the traditional GPS quiver of 7.9, 7.1, 6.3, 5.7, 5.4. The wind range for each sail is
7.9 -12 to 18
7.1 - 14 to 22
6.3 - 17 to 25
5.7 - 20 to 28
5.4 - 22 to 30+
This provides overlap for wind strength. E.G at 18kts I could use either the 7.9, 7.1, or 6.3. I rarely change sail size during a session. Hence when choosing a sail for a session, I try to take into account the potential variance in wind strength. Having good wind strength overlap in your quiver makes the sail size choice easier.

kato
VIC, 2496 posts
1 Jul 2019 12:47PM
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John340 said..
I have the traditional GPS quiver of 7.9, 7.1, 6.3, 5.7, 5.4. The wind range for each sail is
7.9 -12 to 18
7.1 - 14 to 22
6.3 - 17 to 25
5.7 - 20 to 28
5.4 - 22 to 30+
This provides overlap for wind strength. E.G at 18kts I could use either the 7.9, 7.1, or 6.3. I rarely change sail size during a session. Hence when choosing a sail for a session, I try to take into account the potential variance in wind strength. Having good wind strength overlap in your quiver makes a the sail size choice easier.


Ditch the 7.1 and up the 6.3 to 6.6 . Then use the spare cash to buy more fins

Tardy
3025 posts
2 Jul 2019 6:07AM
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Basher said..
Sail gaps are pretty interesting, especially if you look at what kit you want to own in the longer term.
If you simply look a the sail area gap for a power change then in larger sizes you have a much bigger gap than you can for your windy weather/wave sails. So the jump from a 4m to a 4.4 is often right, whereas the jump from a 7m can be straight to an 8m. I'd say the jump from a 7m to an 8.6 is a bit too far, plus it misses out on a 7.8 which is a fun size.

But there are so many other factors to consider.
1) I tend to match sail sizes to boards and you often have a board which is fine with a 7.8 but is overloaded with an 8.6. There's often something wrong with your kit selection of you find that a board you have only works with one sail size. So I'd be also looking at the bigger picture of how many boards and rigs you actually want to own and carry to the beach at one time. .
2) Sails also have to be matched with masts, and any quiver of sails needs to be consolidated, unless you want to own a separate mast for each sail, and that gets very expensive. Boom lengths are also a consideration, because a quality carbon boom for a big rig can blow your budget. .
3) Following on from the above points my biggest sail was always a 7.8 because that was the biggest sail that would fit on a 460 mast, and the 8.6 seemed to need a 490. The 8.6 might also need another boom.
4) If you go too big with your biggest rig then you often find that's a sail you don't want to rig, because it so unwieldy in use, plus it needs the long mast and a longer boom. My biggest rig used to be a 7.8 because that size was still fun to use, whereas an 8.6 wasn't. I'd leave the downhaul a bit slacker if the wind was light, and the tighter leech then got me planing early enough. If the wind was too light for that then I'd go on my bike instead.
6) Another modern option for light wind sailing is to have a foil board, using a 6m rig as your biggest. So you can argue that the outlay for a foil is justified in that you no longer need big sails, masts or a long boom.


thanks basher ..some good points ,and John, nice quiver ,don't listen to kato,

yep i think i will add the 7,8 ..should be good on the 115 patrik .thats my favourite board to ride ..

and i will leave the 8,6 for the 140.for light days

booms and masts are all covered ...I have them already .carrying extra gear is no problem ,I have a trailer ,hooked onto the 4wd .
I learnt my lesson a way back ,forgetting gear ,I know my house is only 15 minutes drive away ,but thats half an hour there and back of sailing time wasted ..

i brought a 2nd hand Pyrde 6,4 evo 6 ,4 weeks back ,and have a 6,0 2 cam lion ..so i reckon I'm done now .NOW to pay for it all $

kato
VIC, 2496 posts
2 Jul 2019 8:19AM
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mark62
285 posts
2 Jul 2019 6:53AM
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I wish sail manufacturers would keep sail sizes simple, 5.5m, 6.5m, 7.5m, etc etc.

Subsonic
WA, 1652 posts
2 Jul 2019 5:11PM
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Pretty sure they do?

Severne keep a 0.8m gap between their race sails. Im sure other manufacturers do the same.

Wave sails i find a bit strange, severne blades for instace, you can get a 4.7 and a 5m. 0.3sqm? Really? Wave sailors i know have told me it makes a difference....

gorgesailor
177 posts
2 Jul 2019 10:49PM
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Subsonic said..
Pretty sure they do?

Severne keep a 0.8m gap between their race sails. Im sure other manufacturers do the same.

Wave sails i find a bit strange, severne blades for instace, you can get a 4.7 and a 5m. 0.3sqm? Really? Wave sailors i know have told me it makes a difference....


I think this is so you can choose either 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 etc... OR 4.2, 4.7, 5.2 etc... this way you can choose a quiver which is more ideal based on your weight & local... Or you can double up on very well used sizes like 4.7, 5.0 so you can fine tune those perfect conditions. This also allows you to stretch the quiver out more if you want - especially with the wind range of modern sails. For example you could go 4.2, 5.0, 5.7 to cover more total wind range with less sails, though you may miss that sweet spot sail like 4.7 etc...

Wytze
9 posts
5 Jul 2019 6:34AM
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I am using 7.0&8.6 (reflex 8) as well as my only slalom sails.
Windrange for me (85kg) is about:
8.6 15-20 knots
7.0 20-25 knots
I use it with an 82 wide slalom board.
I can use the 7.0 in less wind but it's better to be powered up.

In about 5 knots less I use a np Alu foil instead of a fin. Not perfect maybe but it works.

Imax1
VIC, 2062 posts
5 Jul 2019 7:47PM
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Cos I'm a fat foook blasting in big chop , 8.7 is my favourite 17 kt tool.
6.8 is my favourite for fun .
6.2 is the smallest I'd be happy in rough water .
9.4 is my most used .
6+ and under is damage control , only useful in flat water.
If I'm using my 5.8 in my playground, I'll give you 15 minutes of damage controll. At best.



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"Race Sail sizes and gap question ." started by Tardy