Forums > Wing Foiling General

A big guy mast issue no one seems to talk about.

Reply
Created by Jethrow A week ago, 12 Jan 2021
Jethrow
NSW, 954 posts
12 Jan 2021 6:37PM
Thumbs Up

Hi All, this is not meant to be a brand bashing exercise, in fact in my case it was well handled with warranty from the brand in question.

I'm 97kg's and the very first time I took my board out I couldn't get up on the foils due to standing too far forward, but I could feel the l foil loading under me. When I got in I noticed that the mast kicked out to one side maybe 60 - 70mm with a distinct bend where it came out of the mast base at the board end. It was a 2200cm foil on an 85cm alloy mast. I sent photos to the company and they replaced it under warranty for me. The rep did say that in his opinion, the 85cm mast was too long for the kinds of load a big guy on a wide board and big foil can put on the mast.

Then just last night, a similar situation with a similar weight guy on a slightly smaller foil going for his first sail and the same thing happened. Different company this time though, the only commonality was an 85cm alloy mast and a lot of leverage.

When I was doing my due diligence before buying, everyone said bigger guys needed a large front foil and a nice long mast will help with clearance in the chop. I've never heard anyone say be careful with loading a long mast in the wrong way or suggest a maximum length to use depending on rider weight.

I can only think that it's a newbie thing, where we find new and interesting ways of loading a foil, and hopefully when I get better I can go back to the longer mast, until then i'll keep going with my 65cm.

Anyone else experienced something like this and is there alloy masts out there that are stronger than others?

Thanks
Jethrow

P.S. a basic estimated cantilever load calculation shows that it takes half as much load to bend the tip of an 85cm beam 50mm compared to a length proportional amount for the 65cm beam.

kobo
NSW, 499 posts
12 Jan 2021 7:13PM
Thumbs Up

Yep, bent a 60cm Ali mast when learning, it was replaced with a new one ,and I straightened the old one and it never bent again. I think you might be right about loading it up more ,and in unusual ways when learning.
I now ride carbon which has a lot more reinforcement at the mast end so no problem now, but I would use an axis or starboard mast if you want a super strong Ali mast.

goggo
NSW, 130 posts
12 Jan 2021 7:35PM
Thumbs Up

I am 95Kg and have significant stress lines from the fuse up the mast (5-10cm long), if it were a yatcht survey of rig it would fail. You can feel the deformity when you run your fingers over it. If it fails I could get injured and possibly loose rig.
Bought new, both dealer and owner of company fobbed me off.
Ready to update, and just letting Adrian know I will be going with another brand. Replace my mast would have kept me happy.

stroppo
WA, 582 posts
12 Jan 2021 6:50PM
Thumbs Up

I've bent a few until I went carbon now no probs I'm 112kg

hilly
WA, 5832 posts
12 Jan 2021 7:06PM
Thumbs Up

105kg Armstrong 850 mast no problems

DWF
269 posts
12 Jan 2021 8:35PM
Thumbs Up

Sorry, but Armstrong is floppy with the 2400 front wing. Like a dogs tail wagging under the board.

Axis carbon is much stiffer (and heavier as you'd expect)

Axis aluminum 19mm or Axis carbon is stiffest big guy setup.

Clamsmasha
WA, 221 posts
12 Jan 2021 9:02PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
DWF said..
Sorry, but Armstrong is floppy with the 2400 front wing. Like a dogs tail wagging under the board.

Axis carbon is much stiffer (and heavier as you'd expect)

Axis aluminum 19mm or Axis carbon is stiffest big guy setup.


The Gofoil 29.5" is like granite. The NP alu looks fairly heavily built too.

Grantmac
618 posts
13 Jan 2021 1:56AM
Thumbs Up

I've seen and heard of a lot of bent Slingshot masts, Gong about the same except better supported at the fuselage.

Starboard definitely has the most secure attachment at the fuselage and seem extremely durable.
Axis gets high marks but I haven't ridden one personally.

LeeD
2134 posts
13 Jan 2021 2:33AM
Thumbs Up

Try riding a 16 lbs. road bike at 250 lbs.
Or squeeze into an American Airlines coach seat at that weight.
Oh, you don't hang glide?

hilly
WA, 5832 posts
13 Jan 2021 5:37AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
DWF said..
Sorry, but Armstrong is floppy with the 2400 front wing. Like a dogs tail wagging under the board.


Did it break? Do notice the flex when up and riding? Armie designed them with flex for surfing. Stiffness is not the only measure of a mast. Stiff masts feel dead when riding like stiff surfboard fins.

pitbulldoug
54 posts
13 Jan 2021 9:42AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
DWF said..
Sorry, but Armstrong is floppy with the 2400 front wing. Like a dogs tail wagging under the board.

Axis carbon is much stiffer (and heavier as you'd expect)

Axis aluminum 19mm or Axis carbon is stiffest big guy setup.


Agree the 19mm is best big guy mast I've tried for winging or supfoiling for that matter,and I've tried many,was riding carbon fiber foils/masts for years and never thought I'd be back on a Aluminum mast fuse setup until I tried the Axis 6 months ago great set up especially for heavier riders,way to go!

westozwind
WA, 1308 posts
13 Jan 2021 10:13AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Try riding a 16 lbs 7Kg. road bike at 250 lbs 113Kg.
Or squeeze into an American Airlines coach Jetstar economy seat at that weight.
Oh, you don't hang glide?


Fixed if for you. Go metric. It's easier.

eppo
WA, 7668 posts
13 Jan 2021 10:25AM
Thumbs Up

I think the idea of the stiffest mast possible idea has out grown it's usefulness in reality. Must admit when I first put together my Armstrong (85cm) I thought literally "**** me this thing has a lot of flex ?". In the water it works.

another possible and most probable theory is a flexible mast for a big guy is a good thing. Most constructions of any sort have in built in flexibility, say bridges, buildings etc etc etc. total rigid mast means when put under strain where's the give?
I suppose it depends on what theory you want to adopt.

But it's just that, theory. In practise well that's a different thing altogether. Hilly is right in that the liveliness of the say the armie setup is better than on my old stiff as Ali axis setup.

Floter
VIC, 121 posts
13 Jan 2021 2:15PM
Thumbs Up

Naish, early mod mast connection point wobbly as well.... hasn't failed though.
s25 good

AUS 808
WA, 372 posts
13 Jan 2021 12:32PM
Thumbs Up

From the reports of masts bending & being re-straightened by hand I am starting to think that some brands are using "as extruded" material in it's soft state.
To make these profiles they extrude the aluminium through a hardened die, the alloy is usually pretty soft say T4.
After any further work it should then be heat treated to make it T6 which is very stiff.
Unfortunately I sold my gauge for checking the Temper "T" number of aluminium & most mast would be anodised anyway so a spot would have to be stripped of anodising for testing.

If it is T4 it will have a dull sound when you tap it whereas T6 will have a higher pitch sound, hard to explain

Might be worth asking a few companies what Grade & Temper their mast are, see if they actually know

Seajuice
NSW, 690 posts
13 Jan 2021 9:16PM
Thumbs Up

Never had a problem with my Neilpryde 65cm mast. It helps if its wider too.
Had a problem with previous China made mast that was exact copy of one of the well known brands.
Side on hit by waves onto the board making it roll sideways introduces immense pressure. Enough to bend the mast at the board mount due to leverage.

Seajuice
NSW, 690 posts
13 Jan 2021 9:19PM
Thumbs Up

Oh. And well said AUS 808. T4 will sound like tapping a sheet of lead. T6 will sound like tapping a sheet of steel or tin.

Youngbreezy
WA, 714 posts
13 Jan 2021 7:58PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Seajuice said..
Side on hit by waves onto the board making it roll sideways introduces immense pressure. Enough to bend the mast at the board mount due to leverage.


I have bent a NP and an axis mast in exactly this way!!

The NP I got caught inside on a solid bombie and it bent at the base plate. I had to replace the mast and base plate which was expensive, especially considering I only caught 1 wave that session

The axis (19mm) I did just last week at a reef break in margs. The wave went hollow I blew the drop and my board tried to pull in to the barrell. At least with the axis only the mast bent. The baseplate and doodad were still all good.

I didn't claim any warranties or blame the manufacturer in either case. It was just my own bad luck and stupidity. Both happened in solid WA reef break surf so sh#t happens as they say.

hilly
WA, 5832 posts
13 Jan 2021 8:37PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Youngbreezy said..tried to pull in to the barrell.

Video please

Youngbreezy
WA, 714 posts
13 Jan 2021 8:54PM
Thumbs Up

My board did not me!

hilly
WA, 5832 posts
13 Jan 2021 8:59PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Youngbreezy said..
My board did not me!


Would have been good to see

Leighbreeze
NSW, 451 posts
14 Jan 2021 7:36AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
eppo said..
I think the idea of the stiffest mast possible idea has out grown it's usefulness in reality. Must admit when I first put together my Armstrong (85cm) I thought literally "**** me this thing has a lot of flex ?". In the water it works.

another possible and most probable theory is a flexible mast for a big guy is a good thing. Most constructions of any sort have in built in flexibility, say bridges, buildings etc etc etc. total rigid mast means when put under strain where's the give?
I suppose it depends on what theory you want to adopt.

But it's just that, theory. In practise well that's a different thing altogether. Hilly is right in that the liveliness of the say the armie setup is better than on my old stiff as Ali axis setup.


Have definitely felt uncomfortable at times with the flex of masts over the last few years learning kite foiling.105kgs above the water something has got to give.
Larger foil wings increases mast flex.
85CmArmie Carbon mast to me I have not noticed much flex if any kite foiling using up to HS1250cm2 front foils.
Only one short session on the Armie 100cm Carbon mast,1050front so far.Awesome mast.Loving the longer mast.
Only learning to wing so can't comment on mast flex as yet .
Interesting topic.

RustySpokes
NSW, 10 posts
Saturday , 23 Jan 2021 1:30PM
Thumbs Up

Any hot tips on how I might straighten my Naish 75cm aluminium mast? Got caught in the shore dump while swimming it back on the beach. Only a slight bend right at the top but reluctant to put too much pressure on it when I don't know what I'm doing. ?????

DavidJohn
VIC, 16594 posts
Saturday , 23 Jan 2021 5:51PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
RustySpokes said..
Any hot tips on how I might straighten my Naish 75cm aluminium mast? Got caught in the shore dump while swimming it back on the beach. Only a slight bend right at the top but reluctant to put too much pressure on it when I don't know what I'm doing. ?????


You can use a drop saw and cut 10cm off and re tap the three holes.. Easy.

kobo
NSW, 499 posts
Yesterday , 24 Jan 2021 4:20PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
RustySpokes said..
Any hot tips on how I might straighten my Naish 75cm aluminium mast? Got caught in the shore dump while swimming it back on the beach. Only a slight bend right at the top but reluctant to put too much pressure on it when I don't know what I'm doing. ?????


Did same to 62 cm Slingshot mast years ago......put one end up on a block of hardwood with the bend facing up and hit the apex of the bend with a sledgehammer. Used a small piece of timber to shield between mast and hammer so it wasn't a metal to metal blow. Kept hitting it and checking by sight and a straight edge until it was straight again.
Up ended the mast so the previously bent end was at the fuse connection ( less stress ) and used it forever and it never bent again !



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Wing Foiling General


"A big guy mast issue no one seems to talk about." started by Jethrow