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Big wing / big foil or just better technique

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Created by steview A week ago, 13 May 2022
steview
51 posts
13 May 2022 5:55PM
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Probably been discussed before but what are peoples opinions on the light wind gains v cost of buying an 8 m wing and say the axis 1300 over just better technique with say a 6m wing and 1050 hps ?

PKenny
SA, 210 posts
13 May 2022 8:23PM
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This is my theory.

If the wind looks dubious go big.
Big wing, big board and big foil.

Just like the brochures. Flat calm and cruising around. Because it's better to be cruising around than on the beach or struggling to get on the foil.

I did use the combo that you mentioned last week for the first time in flukey conditions and was happily surprised by how little wind was needed to fly. But a big board was nice and comfy to glug on when there was no wind. A mid 90 kegger.

NordRoi
463 posts
13 May 2022 7:19PM
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What i realized with a 7 or 8m(tried both, strike from f-one), is you do not need a super big foil. You can go in sub 10knts with a way smaller foil than you think and the glide is limitless once foiling!

King Crash
NSW, 187 posts
13 May 2022 9:36PM
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NordRoi said..
What i realized with a 7 or 8m(tried both, strike from f-one), is you do not need a super big foil. You can go in sub 10knts with a way smaller foil than you think and the glide is limitless once foiling!


This is the correct idea. Small HA foil and the 7/8m CWC would be an excellent light wind combo.
If Chanzy Patrice has taught me anything - water starting a 33L board in 9/10 knots is very very possible with an 8m, and then probably a HA 1000cm foil. Video for proof, but do check out how he wings sinkers in very light wind, but makes the absolute most of it. He's riding a lower aspect foil around 1200cm for most of this.www.instagram.com/p/CUf8RO7I1Dv/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Dcharlton
190 posts
13 May 2022 8:44PM
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Great question! I've been wingfoiling for a year and started on the 1060BSC which I loved at first, but now that I've experienced the 890BSC and the 1050HPS it's really hard for me to want to go back to the 1060BSC even in light winds. I think I can almost get up on the 1050HPS in the same light wind as the 1050HPS. So I'd rather slog a little bit more if once I'm on foil, I can make better turns, catch up with the swell and hit my jibes better with the 1050HPS. It's a trade off I'm ok with paying. My largest wing is a 6.5.

DC

drlazone
93 posts
13 May 2022 8:52PM
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If going for big foil, pick one that has lots of glide and top end.
You want to be able to create as much apparent wind as possible for your wing by going faster than the wind.
Also learn to pump for long distance in the big lulls on those conditions (and keep your wing still to catch the pumping wind).
Learn to jibe in the gusts and learn to pump the foil during the jibe.

JakeDawg69
13 posts
13 May 2022 9:58PM
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Was out on the 8m CWC last night in very low wind conditions. I was using a very big foil, Naish 2450, and it was dog slow even though it popped up easily. For pumping up on foil with the large 8m CWC, I found the best method is to reach across the wind. Do a couple slow pumps to get going. And if the wind is constant, head further downwind and point the nose of your board towards the wing tip (not directly because that would be too far downwind). Then holding the wing out in front at 45 degrees, do some very quick, short pumps. The CWC wing will start to accelerate the board very quickly. Then do a couple ab crunches ... that transfers power down into the board on the way down and as you come up you are then releasing weight from the board. No jumping around or kicking required. The crunches take care of that for you. Pretty cool sensation getting up on a board in such light conditions.

Trouble was staying up on foil through the lulls since the 2450 doesn't have any glide. You have to pump it hard through the lulls. I've been using the ab crunch technique where I use my abs instead of my arms and shoulders. Seems to transfer power to the wing and the board while my arms and legs do their thing naturally without me thinking about it.

Velocicraptor
196 posts
13 May 2022 10:09PM
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JakeDawg69 said..
Was out on the 8m CWC last night in very low wind conditions. I was using a very big foil, Naish 2450, and it was dog slow even though it popped up easily. For pumping up on foil with the large 8m CWC, I found the best method is to reach across the wind. Do a couple slow pumps to get going. And if the wind is constant, head further downwind and point the nose of your board towards the wing tip (not directly because that would be too far downwind). Then holding the wing out in front at 45 degrees, do some very quick, short pumps. The CWC wing will start to accelerate the board very quickly. Then do a couple ab crunches ... that transfers power down into the board on the way down and as you come up you are then releasing weight from the board. No jumping around or kicking required. The crunches take care of that for you. Pretty cool sensation getting up on a board in such light conditions.

Trouble was staying up on foil through the lulls since the 2450 doesn't have any glide. You have to pump it hard through the lulls. I've been using the ab crunch technique where I use my abs instead of my arms and shoulders. Seems to transfer power to the wing and the board while my arms and legs do their thing naturally without me thinking about it.


Ive found the CWC to have a very back-hand oriented pump. The vertical / circular pump doesn't marry well with that wing.

I agree with others on the smaller high efficiency foil paired with a big wing. I have never needed a foil larger than 1250 - 1400 (which I consider to be a lightwind foil) to get up with the 7m CWC.

Dspace
125 posts
14 May 2022 12:00AM
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drlazone said..
If going for big foil, pick one that has lots of glide and top end.
You want to be able to create as much apparent wind as possible for your wing by going faster than the wind.
Also learn to pump for long distance in the big lulls on those conditions (and keep your wing still to catch the pumping wind).
Learn to jibe in the gusts and learn to pump the foil during the jibe.





That's basically my approach. A 6m Slick is my biggest current wing. I'll use it with a Gong Veloce XXL (107cm, 1900 sq cm and very low profile for its size, hence decent glide!). I hate trying to tack anything larger than a 6m wing, which already feels like wrestling an aircraft carrier. Guess my "ligament challenged" left shoulder just isn't strong enough.

This is the lightest wind I'll do with my XXL Veloce, and in this case my Echo 6m (that I've since replaced with a 6m Slick). IMHO tacking takes a bit more wind and glide than just jibing, and if I there isn't enough wind to tack I have no interest in trying to wing. Would have been just as happy (and way faster) kitefoiling on this particular day, but Kiting solo from a boat is a PITA. (Video was a year ago on equipment that would now be two years old )

ArthurAlston
NSW, 38 posts
14 May 2022 9:33AM
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drlazone said..
Also learn to pump for long distance in the big lulls on those conditions (and keep your wing still to catch the pumping wind).
Learn to jibe in the gusts and learn to pump the foil during the jibe.


Excellent advice. I admired the guys doing this for a couple of months before being coordinate enough to do it (especially the pupmping the board and holding the wing still to get through lulls). I still struggle with it on my non-dominant side, but when I manage it, it feels like a super-power.

Also looking for the gusts to jibe in. Very useful advice.

ArthurAlston
NSW, 38 posts
14 May 2022 9:35AM
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King Crash said..



This is the correct idea. Small HA foil and the 7/8m CWC would be an excellent light wind combo.



This is good to know. I'm still using my largest foil (1850) combined with the 6 CWC in light winds, but may try some of my smaller foils based on this approach.

sultanofwing
55 posts
Saturday , 14 May 2022 5:59PM
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(1m69 for 63kgs) I have a gong lethal at 65 liters and a starboard freewing 6.0m with a Go Foil Maliko 200 on a Kai tail, I can stand up in almost no wind using the wing tip for support in the water but it's hard hard work if the wind drops to nothing, still I have fun trying.

King Crash
NSW, 187 posts
Saturday , 14 May 2022 10:06PM
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sultanofwing said..
(1m69 for 63kgs) I have a gong lethal at 65 liters and a starboard freewing 6.0m with a Go Foil Maliko 200 on a Kai tail, I can stand up in almost no wind using the wing tip for support in the water but it's hard hard work if the wind drops to nothing, still I have fun trying.


Try a Rs1150. The GoFoil guys all rave on this wing, and the M200 is displacing so much water, bloody hard to get going. I learnt on an M200/Kai tail and 90L deep board. Good board! But when I swapped to a HA setup, I was blown away at how much earlier I could get on foil, and how much less cm2 I really needed. There has been massive grounds made in foil design since the M200 and, whilst it's a bit of a faux par, in that - why are you on old gear, or keeping up with everyone needs to be done.

It's really as simple as an efficient HA foil of around 1000cm2 and a big powerful wing.

Design of HA's are everything. MikesLab 1000cm2 can hit well over 30 knots. You'd be on 650cm with SAB and don't even try with most other brands.
Just remember fast is efficient!

drlazone
93 posts
Saturday , 14 May 2022 8:58PM
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Or the GT2200.
I take off in 8 knots with it and CWC6m on 60L.
Way better top end than the Maliko 200, doesn't overlift as speed goes up. Cruising above wind speed in those winds. I think someone top speed was 20 knots.

FoilAddict
63 posts
Sunday , 15 May 2022 4:15AM
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Lightest wind I've sailed in is on the Reedin 4.2 and Axis 1300 with a 95L board so Id say board and foil are most important. It was almost glassy and I spent about 10% of the time pumping and 40% riding waves.

The most fun I've had in light wind was around 10kn on the 8m CWC with a 1000cm2 foil and prone board.

Seems like the gap in wind between needing a 4-5m and an 8m is really small. Personally don't see any need for anything above 5m until you go massive, but you want a good board and technique. There have been days where I swap from 6 to 4.7 and have an easier time because the small wing is easier to pump and nicer to handle.

sultanofwing
55 posts
Sunday , 15 May 2022 5:16AM
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(a bit off topic but I nearly bought a Deep board, love those guys sup vids from the pre foiling era)

foilstate
72 posts
Tuesday , 17 May 2022 3:30AM
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FoilAddict said..
Lightest wind I've sailed in is on the Reedin 4.2 and Axis 1300 with a 95L board so Id say board and foil are most important. It was almost glassy and I spent about 10% of the time pumping and 40% riding waves.

The most fun I've had in light wind was around 10kn on the 8m CWC with a 1000cm2 foil and prone board.

Seems like the gap in wind between needing a 4-5m and an 8m is really small. Personally don't see any need for anything above 5m until you go massive, but you want a good board and technique. There have been days where I swap from 6 to 4.7 and have an easier time because the small wing is easier to pump and nicer to handle.


FoilAddict what is the lighest wind you have sailed?

The more interesting question for wave lovers might be, what is the lighest wind in which someone can have fun in waves, and with what gear. Seems like the CWC 8m paired with a 1000sqcm high aspect is a really efficient combo.

juandesooka
563 posts
Tuesday , 17 May 2022 3:58AM
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I hate slogging, pumping, riding underpowered ... I find it hard work that wrecks the fun ... so in marginal winds I err on side of the 3-part combo: big wing, big foil, big board. And then if conditions support it, upgrade one variable at a time. But I generally prefer to be over-gunned and holding on vs barely able to make it work ... I know not everyone agrees.

My big wing is Ocean Rodeo 6m ... when the wind picks up it's a beast at 18kt, I find a harness really helps take the heat off. I imagine an 8m would be barely manageable above 15kt.

My all-around board is 90L.

My big foil is GoFoil GL240...1875cm2. I used to have Maliko200 too, the difference is pretty interesting, they both get up in near nothing, but the M200 pumps up vertical, the GL240 taxis and takes off more horizontal, like a jumbo jet. My step down is PNL185 (1300cm2) and then RS1150 daily driver.

The other variable is the stab....a bigger rear fin can make a big difference too in getting up quick in light wind.

PS Wave lover question: with decent surf I will try in the 8-10kt range with my 3XBig quiver. Though slogging in 8kt, I may opt for the surf foil instead. With no surf, I'd have to be pretty desperate to bother if sub 12kt, as the ride is often not worth the work.



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"Big wing / big foil or just better technique" started by steview