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Danger Dave
WA
Australia
61 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 1:39 pm
   
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Just a bit of a discussion starter. What does everyone think of the common use of the phrases power and depower. Does anyone actually believe that pushing out on the bar always depowers the kite. Also do you think that every time you pull in on the bar you automatically get more power. I think these terms are very misleading for beginners.
I think not many kiteboarders use their trim strap effectively to tune each kite for the correct arm reach. I see too many people with long chicken loop lines who expect this to help them "depower" their kites! this leads to bad posture and ineffective transmission of power to the legs. It also leads to a sore back! If you are hunched over don't expect to be able to edge hard and depower!
Maybe I am being a douche but when I push the bar away from me and the kite is in the middle of the window the kite pulls harder and I can hardly see how pulling on the bar in at the edge in light wind will make the kite power up!
What does everyone think?
Should we abolish this terminology?
Should beginners learn to control power properly with their legs on a 2 line kite before we give them a 4 line kite?
Thanks in advance for the responses both for and against. |
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loose fin
QLD
Australia
214 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 2:01 pm
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You must have a funny kite
if you have your kite in the power zone, with the bar pulled in, it will have a lot more power than if in the same place with the bar extended - therefore back lines loose. - therefore with the kite in the same place and same kite movements, the bar movement from and towards you does adjust the power...
also, if at the edge of the window, and you have the bar pulled in, although this will not help you go upwind, youll get more pull from the kite to keep you planing etc, so again, the chicken look is acting as a power, depower option.
pushing out the bar does always depower the kite, relative to the kite being in the same situation with the bar pulled in.
Its not going to totally depower the kite, but will reduce the power in comparison to having it pulled in... |
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Surgeon
NSW
Australia
134 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 2:23 pm
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Danger Dave, is that your name coz you like having the kite in the middle of the window???? If you've got the bad boy down there pretty much doesn't matter what you do, your not gonna depower it as you said when you depower the kite will accelerate and generate lift which depending on the contitions may equate to more or less pull In fact over sheeting and stalling the kite could be best to shed lift/pull.
The depower on a kite will definately depower the kite by reducing the angle of attack - it's all that aerodynamic crap - you know you've basically got a wing above you the greater the angle of attack up to the critical angle, the slower the forward movement but the more lift (pull) the wing generates blah blah blah!!!! with the opposite for the reduction of the angle of attack (that would be !!!!halb halb halb) - if you've read the conditions wrong and you've got the wrong kite up it's not going to help much at all.
Later 
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Danger Dave
WA
Australia
61 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 2:23 pm
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cool ok I can see where you are coming from. So if you are out in light wind and you pull in on the bar you get more power in all circumstances?
And are you sure about the middle of the window? When you push the bar away aren't you making your kite fly faster. Surely a faster kite will generate as much pull through its forward motion as its lift.
I think what you have just said is what most people think and I am not saying it is wrong just that it has a few holes!
For instance if you are out in light wind it is more beneficial to allow the kite to fly fast and depowered so the sail developes more lift through its increased airspeed. I often tell people who are trying to work power out of their kite to sheet out when the kite is rising and falling during the power stroke and they often ask me why would you sheet out when that is depower.
Can you see the holes in the principal.
So is it always depower out, power in? What about if your kite is flaring or stalling? |
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kiterdan
WA
Australia
613 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 2:31 pm
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Sheeting in, depending on the position of your depower strap, will cause the kite to flare meaning that it sits further back in the window = more power. Not sure if this is entirely correct...better to ask ian young or someone like that.
As for length of chicken loop...
On the wipika setups, the control bar comes with stoppers at both ends of the rope so as to give the kiter an opportunity to properly tune the kite. I moved the bottom stopper up 4 inches so that the kite wouldnt flare when I unhooked. This worked a treat until I realised that with the wipika setup you can actually shorten the rope when the setup is at your liking (thereby doing away with the stopper)...so I shortened the rope by 4 inches. Now I get sore elbows from working the kite with bent arms and having to pull in further to unhook...this sucks.
SO not sure what everyone elses opinions are but I prefer the way it was. Sure the depower strap was 4 inches futher away but at least I didnt have to pull in as far to unhook and didnt get sore elbows. |
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professor
QLD
Australia
252 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 2:44 pm
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I call it sheeting in and out I have the kite fully powered up when it is fully out and I pull it in to over sheet it.
I over sheet ("FLARE" removes the power very fast) if i want to short turn fast. this help in the turn as air hits the flared edge and helps turn the kite
If I want to jump high and glide for a long distance I give the kite some depower from the cleet this is what I beleve is ("powering up" or "depowering" the kite) thus making me have to sheet in the bar in order to have max power again when I jump at the apex I fully sheet out by letting the bar come to rest on the stop knot this relaxs th back line so it is not still trying to rise that lets the kite keep shape for the plane so it glides for a long time well thats what im thinking im doing some time I scratch my nuts it seems to help me
I THINK AVERY ONE KNOWS THIS AS SHEETING BUT AMONST PEOPLE IN THE KNOW IT IS JUST EASY TO SAY POWERING UP OR DEPOWERING THE KITE BY JUST REFERING TO THE BAR AND POWER STRAP AS ONE THING
P.S you could even say take the luff out of your sail lol if you like |
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milehigh
WA
Australia
76 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 3:13 pm
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| i know the exact feeling ur discribing danger dan, when u ease out the bar and the kite accelerates to the front of the window....imo this comes from the kite being initially over sheeted and near to stalling as the angle of attack is too great in that situation ie in the middle of the window ..sheeting out is then returning the kite to a more efficient angle of attack ...just like when going from a over sheeted flare to a neutral position ie ur easing out the bar but getting more power..ive been paying a lot more attention to the tune of my kite lately via the depower strap position and it makes for much better kiting....hope all that makes sense...i think i know what in trying to say but then again at the end of it all what do i know ps when that surge of power comes just hang on and enjoy the ride...its a blast |
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Alan
NSW
Australia
125 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 3:27 pm
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Hi Dave,
I see what your getting at and in some cases maybe what you say is true but I wouldn't change any terms. Way I have my setup is full power about an inch or two below the knot and holding it there most of the time with a slight bend in the arms. I like kiting almost always at full power and control speed by the small margin of depower and grinding in my board. So letting out the bar most of the time does depower the kite for sure. However when when I build up too much speed and just can't slow down normally I often pull down on the bar quite a bit and flare the kite to increase drag which slows it down. Sure it flys farther back in the window but I've lost my kite speed. Of course if its just too much then its generally bum brake or crash.
Same for when I do a trick and need to stop the kite (thro lack of control as usual) I pull down on the bar and put the kite brakes on.
Mind you with some old grunty temperamental kites they're gunna do their own thing and the bars just there to cling to. |
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waveslave
WA
Australia
2747 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 6:10 pm
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Danger Dave, Hi. Two questions for you.
Is that a sleeping-bag you're flying or a condom?
Are custom bars the next big thing in kitesurfing? |
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terrah
QLD
Australia
77 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 6:22 pm
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re: I think not many kiteboarders use their trim strap effectively to tune each kite for the correct arm reach. I see too many people with long chicken loop lines who expect this to help them "depower" their kites! this leads to bad posture and ineffective transmission of power to the legs. It also leads to a sore back! If you are hunched over don't expect to be able to edge hard and depower
not being a monkey armed male, i have had to modify every kite i have owned so i can reach darn bar when riding with fully sheated out. problem will come when i want to ride unhooked.
dont see the use of main loops in four line kites much anymore (i know, a seeming contradiction) but riding fixed especially on light wind days sure ups board skill. anyway, just a thought.
tt |
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PsYLoR
QLD
Australia
745 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 7:48 pm
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| In the right conditions with the right size kite for your weight, depower is definatly giving less pull and powering up is giving more pull. Over sheeting a kite or powering it up too much just gives you loss in performance. There is a fine line between being powered up correctly and being over sheeted. Its all a matter of understanding how your kite works & setting it up correctly for the conditions your riding in. |
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gls
WA
Australia
263 Posts |
Posted 03/02/2005, 8:49 pm
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I've just bought a new Guerilla 2 and I'm struggling to work out how to tune it, so this thread is very topical for me. I've definitely found that sheeting out can accelerate me like a rocket. Oversheeting stalls the kite but I do get concerned that it might drag me downwind with great force.
So, thinking out loud ...
I used to do a lot of sailing. If I'm tacking upwind towards a mark, and have the sail oversheeted, then I'm not going to go as fast forward as I would if I sheeted out to the point where the sail starts to luff. Oversheeted I will be pulled sideways moreso than pulled forward. I will heal the boat terribly but won't go anywhere.
Perhaps the analogy should be the same for kites. Sheet out and your kite will accelerate around to the point where it will luff, and by that means you get accelerated too until the kite luffs at the edge of the window. Sheet in and you'll stall the kite which effectively means it doesn't fly fast and so you should surf slower. You may however get pulled a little more downwind but that probably isn't going to be very significant.
I'll try the theory this weekend and let you know if I don't hurt myself.
Graeme
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jan
WA
Australia
1113 Posts |
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Surgeon
NSW
Australia
134 Posts |
Posted 04/02/2005, 7:15 am
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Hi GLS, your theory regarding the kite is basically correct except you left out two critical things
1. Apparent wind which you would be familiar with from sailing.
2. Resistance – the board on water and your legs on the land – the amount of resistance dictates where the kite will be in the window. You know the old help! I’m going to fast – edge the board – force the kite to the edge stuff and visa versa.
Kiting is about the sum of the components not just the kite and not just the board, both need to be controlled to control power and speed.
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ianyoung
WA
Australia
616 Posts |
Posted 04/02/2005, 10:12 am
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DD, some of my students have also been confused by the popular terminology used for bar position. IMO sheeting in/out or increase/decrease AoA are technically more accurate.
I teach my students that the following characteristics change as you sheet IN (opposite when sheeting out):
- lift increases a relaively small % up until the point of a stall when lift =0 (stall = drag > lift, usually when the real and/or apparent wind has dropped significantly)
- drag increases (kite flies slower)
- kite turns faster
- kite becomes more stable (less likely to luff)
Essentially you get power (or lack of it) from where you put the kite in the wind window NOT where you put your bar. The position of the bar just helps you put your kite where you want it more easily.
The depowering effect is achieved by sheeting out, reducing drag and allowing the kite to fly more quickly closer to the edge of the wind window. In the old days of 2-line kiting the only way to do this was to edge your board like @#$$%^%^! Some hard core bad boys considered depowering using a 4-line system to be "chickening out" hence the name chicken loop.
Lift also increases as apparent wind (airspeed of kite) increases, so some kites may initially pull harder as the kite accelerates when sheeted out - pull should then drop off as the kite gets close to the edge of the wind window - of course if you don't edge your board at all then the kite won't fly to the edge of wind window and it won't depower.
Cheers,
Ian Young
www.flysurf.com.au
0414 716 812 |
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Danger Dave
WA
Australia
61 Posts |
Posted 04/02/2005, 12:03 pm
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Thanks Ian sounds right to me. My students have a real problem if you say power and depower so I have removed the terminology from my teaching methods. I have found that my students are flaring and stalling less.
I say push out for more flying speed. Pull in to turn. Otherwise let the bar find its own position with minimal pressure from your hands.
I see too many beginners flaring their kite and crashing backwards.
Next time you are out in upper end conditions with your kite try flaring it and stomping your back foot when you are getting overpowered. Lots of kiters who go away to the races and have the out of control speed slams do so because they are sheeting out without edging which only increases their speed. This keeps happening until you put the back foot down or you lose it completely.
It's just what I do and it seems to work for me : )
I know the principles are sound but I just want to avoid confusing the poor beginners who end up asking the same questions. Sooner or later they figure it out but I thought I would try and shortcut the problem. Avoiding the word depower seems to work and also teaching people how changing the angle of attack using the depower strap can change their arm position and how it can help stop the kite flaring when you wish to ride unhooked.
Thanks all for the replies! I love a healthy discussion!
Dave out. |
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