Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction

Class Five Design

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Created by blake52 > 9 months ago, 3 Dec 2010
Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
20 Dec 2010 9:03AM
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Blake,
Regardless of the purpose of that photo.
It is a great shot, revealing a lot more than the feet.
The Chord variable from top Sail Head to Foot is obvious.
Were I the poor sod piloting it I would go see a Dr as I think he may have a big problem with his neck. Has he Crashed lately?[}:)]

I have been reading these Threads with great interest.

Although I agree there is a definite need for a few Rules and Reg's. Though like everything we do these days. A body of some sort is created to regulate and Control our every move. FISLY's, Gov'ts, FIFA's, Insurance Co's etc. As a species we are becoming regulated into total stupidity a lot of unthinking beasts, who have to go to books or a PC to find out what is safe and what is not. I'm sorry but I am from the Old School for whom life dictates what is safe and what is not, "Use your head for something else besides "Driving Nails"". As an old school member we also had an expression which meant "Use your Nouse/Head", it is a reference to all animals and how they naturally know to procreate. It was called "Common Dog ^&%$" Which to my way of thinking kept us on our toes and allowed us to enjoy life a little closer to the edge. Maybe I'm an "Adrenalin Junky" but I thought a little Danger, Self Confidence and a Will to learn was part of the life of any of us that take on Activities, Such as our chosen activity. From a personal point I have driven at High Speed in Wet conditions and on Dirt roads, Flown at Cloud Base in Hang Gliders and crashed them, I work on Live 240v power fittings (Lights, Power Points etc. It keeps me on my Toes, and there are a few other things as well. My way of thinking is if you can't cop the Heat then Get out of the Kitchen. Those that Die weren't astute enough to survive and are only another set of "Stupid Genes" out of the Pool, we see that every day on our roads. C'est La Vie.

I stress this is not a tirade nor a Jibe at any of you guys personally. It is my "Philosophy of Life" . I am a Strict Darwinist. Evolution by Natural Selection "Survival of the Fittest" If I were meant to be dead it would have happened not too long after I was born. Me Da' always said I was a "Slippery Little Sucker" after I landed on me 'ead and he also reckoned it was the safest place for me to land
I do not think you really need to know my attempts at killing myself other than to say I survived "Spinal Meningitis" at age 10 when a other kids did not survive and that was only part way through my 65yrs.

Ron

PS; I considered deleting this Post. No! I hope to get at least a few of us to enjoy "Walking the Razors Edge" With confidence and know it is pure skill that stops you from falling or Cutting yourselves.

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
20 Dec 2010 12:21PM
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Ron, it seems like I am living closer to that edge. I work on live 33kv power lines etc. Have forcefully removed the fingers of both hands (for some reason they sewed them back on so i could have another go ). Does Darwins theory take into account the remedial effects of surgery? I have "flown" a landyacht at least 9 mtrs in the air(not intentionally mind you)waking several hours later. My claim to fame is 5 seconds on the "Getaway" tv series sailing on two wheels whilst playing "oh when the saints" on a pocket trumpet at the same time.
Wayne

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
20 Dec 2010 5:35PM
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blake52 said...

I have wondered about those nose fairings...my feet, which the rules say have to be visible from above go way forward of the Y on my Rocket YOTT. Maybe the Y is further forward on the French boats. I found a mast top photo of a Plume yacht, I think from the Worlds in Argentina. Feet just visible. I'm searching for a similar photo of a British YOTT boat.



They were really tiny pilots in Argentina Im not very tall and my feet are only 200mm from the mast step, and my mast step is almost at the same point , only a few cm difference.
we did notice that the plume,seagull and airtrack promo seats had heaps of volume. you would get thrown around and bruised constantly. they were shocking for head support.
on our airtrack seats we obtained a foam mattress from a hobos camp and cut up big pieces to pack all the spaces and hold you in the middle of the seat when sailing. the difference in handling was noticable.
perhaps Im getting too old

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
20 Dec 2010 9:27PM
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Sorry about this Blake (It was your Thread in the first place[}:)])

Testpilot1
[}:)][}:)] It looks like that and Miscreant Behavior goes with that name Wayne. I own it as a second half. Evidently Stat's has it that people with that name have a very large %% in the Criminal System. I guess we have been Astute in keeping our miscreant behavior below the Radar..
Ron WW

Bitten but only learned to be a little more careful. I could reiterate a couple of close goes I've had and all.

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
20 Dec 2010 9:54PM
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I had an outing with the maxxis miracle front tyre, It sure held on a lot better than the hookworm, actuary griped so much that it tore my front end apart. Oh well back to the drawing board to add a bit of strength in this area.
Cheers
aus230







aus230
WA, 1659 posts
20 Dec 2010 10:26PM
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That pic of the plume from the top really shows what clem was saying some time ago about removing the rowlock and holding the boom across to get more efficiency out of the sail.

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
21 Dec 2010 12:17AM
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Vic i do the same with my promo. With the rowlock on i get more leverage against the mast and still keep the shape at the foot/boom. It helps when coming to a turn to move the boom to its position it will be after the turn. Makes those turns so much smoother and keep speed.

Hiko
1229 posts
21 Dec 2010 4:05AM
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aus230 said...

I had an outing with the maxxis miracle front tyre, It sure held on a lot better than the hookworm, actuary griped so much that it tore my front end apart. Oh well back to the drawing board to add a bit of strength in this area.
Cheers
aus230





Wow What a gripper!!!

blake52
123 posts
21 Dec 2010 4:26AM
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more top-down photos



I realize that camera distortion could be responsible for some of the differences, but the plume seems to have the 'Y' further forward and the angle a little tighter....

Aus 230 sorry to see the exploded front...glad the Crazy Wheels worked.

Blake

blake52
123 posts
22 Dec 2010 2:16AM
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a couple more interesting photos...Plume With bike shock front and front spar attached at two points, one under the mast and one inside the body. The connection below the mast on this one and on the newest Airtracks, looks delicate, almost fragile. it is a little difficult to figure out where the solid connection is. Looks like very little resistance to side forces. I'm off this week so I will try to model the various frames I see in these photos.



blake52
123 posts
22 Dec 2010 6:58AM
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true only to concept...not really trying to be AUS 230




aus230
WA, 1659 posts
22 Dec 2010 8:05PM
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I think you may be able to see part of the solid connection in the Grey plume that is laying on its side

blake52
123 posts
24 Dec 2010 1:06AM
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Here is what US246 is up to these days. That dim dot is the sun...

blake52
123 posts
24 Dec 2010 3:48AM
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Model of the Rocket type setup, about which I have tons of questions. Mostly, "whats the point of the extra complication?" On my boat at least, there is no adjustment and little suspension movement (at the base of the mast step) I would think there is more suspension from the bending of the aluminum front tube than from the tiny amount of vertical movement allowed by the 'U' shaped strap and rubber pad that locates the front tube. There would seem to be some isolation of the mast's twisting on the main frame from the steering. Maybe someone who talks to Bill and could ask what he had in mind (Unless it is a trade secret).



Also since you guys are a day ahead of us... Merry Christmas!

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
24 Dec 2010 7:58AM
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And the same to your Good Self and Family young Blake. May the Season bring you all you wish for yourselves.
Blake looking at that CAD Design I would suggest that it would be simple enough to use a Hell of a Lot of Carbon Fiber Mast material if you can get a hold of matching broken masts. Knowing what I've learned about that stuff I only wish I'd gone for a similar design. There is , apparently, minimal Steel in the main Chassis unit and the Aluminum Parts all look Plug In to me. If that were the case then it could all be replaced using CF. Sure a lighter machine wouldn't carry the impetus of the heavier unit but it would accelerate a whole lot quicker. That steering set up would be a Breeze. Had the SC been built like that I wouldn't have had the Chassis Twist problems and the material is a bunch stronger.. I would suggest that in hindsight mast tops would be adequate for a construction like that. Only problem might bee that running a rippled surface make make your Teeth Chatter.
Happy Christmas,
Ron

blake52
123 posts
24 Dec 2010 5:55AM
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Picking up landsailers from the edges of my photos. I think I heard this style called "Glenn" at some point. I changed the front wheel to 16in bicycle, with bike style steering. The switch to 16 inch was to get the headset lower and make the front tubes hit the 'Y' in a way that looked right. The transparency worked this time on the seat, so you can see the chassis without me deleting the seat. From the 2010 worlds it looked like lots of people were using very similar Seagul sails and wheels. What an opportunity for comparing styles.
Blake


Ron,
I wish class 5 allowed carbon masts (and other tubes). They are commonly available and really cheap, at least used, thanks to all the sailboarders who have to have the newest stuff every year.

Hiko
1229 posts
24 Dec 2010 8:43AM
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Hi Blake Merry xmas to you as well they seem to come around quicker and quicker
Re the Rocket chassis I think the original plan was to have rubber under the mast step for front suspension and I tried that originally [ a squash ball] and then went solid then sprung front forks and am now back solid again The main driver for me was to get positive steering in the hard turns on the beach Small corrections were fine but rounding a mark when the beach was narrow was always a bit of a lottery whether I went swimming or not The biggest improvement for me in the steering department was the Maxxis miracle tyre which I have recently put on

blake52
123 posts
24 Dec 2010 4:55PM
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I've been researching the wheel building forums (AUS 230)...like someone commented "sounds easier than it probably is." has anyone built wheels without splitting the mountain bike rim? Wrapping the glass around the bead? were the original molds plaster?
I'm using the NZ sulky wheels and so far no problems (we usually don't run in really hot places in the summer, because it often isn't windy) their 26inch ones might work, but they aren't mountain bike 26, so tires are nearly impossible here.

Is my "Rocket" really a "Gecko?" (I'm one of the guys who got the ones going to the US.)

It was really interesting to read what led up to AUS 230's spectacular crash...being 10 inches too far back would really cause havoc; even a couple of inches makes a difference.

The more I read old forums the more I hope I'm not making you guys rehash old concepts.

My next project is to glass a headrest onto the Rocket/Gecko. My temporary, taped-on one made a huge difference in comfort; I think I sail better when I'm not fighting to hold my head up. That has been my only issue with the Rocket/Gecko--I got spoiled because the US fed 5 was so comfortable--maybe I can hang one of those seats under the Rocket/Gecko's frame there are yotts that use that body and I think I know who has the mold.


landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
24 Dec 2010 5:36PM
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blake52 said...

Picking up landsailers from the edges of my photos. I think I heard this style called "Glenn" at some point. I changed the front wheel to 16in bicycle, with bike style steering. The switch to 16 inch was to get the headset lower and make the front tubes hit the 'Y' in a way that looked right. The transparency worked this time on the seat, so you can see the chassis without me deleting the seat. From the 2010 worlds it looked like lots of people were using very similar Seagul sails and wheels. What an opportunity for comparing styles.
Blake



Ron,
I wish class 5 allowed carbon masts (and other tubes). They are commonly available and really cheap, at least used, thanks to all the sailboarders who have to have the newest stuff every year.

been there. tried this style front we changed to C bars which was a big improvement , then to a layover, the difference in a flying class 5 is incredible. definitely wouldnt go back.
has anybody given consideration to a 16" front wheel instead of a 20" the winning 5 in Argentina ran a 16 with a pilot of 110kg +. he beat all those plume /seagull types you are putting up.
I do find it fascinating that in 1990 a simple OTT Y frame was the best thing that Ive seen , then in 1998 there was an incredible array of complicated frames with floating mast steps,dual frames behind the mast , dual bars running to the front end, then by 2008 it was back to simple Y frames again.
something to consider as you design your next one . the sails have gone from simple to really high aspect, then become simple again too.
hmmmmmm..............


blake52
123 posts
24 Dec 2010 6:16PM
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Landyacht, "the difference in a flying class 5 is incredible." do you mean the bike style front doesn't work when the yacht lifts a wheel? Or that it doesn't work going fast?
My Fed 5 had a 16 inch front wheel...worked fine; most of the Plumes, but not the Airtracks have small (16in) wheels too.
Blake

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
24 Dec 2010 6:41PM
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Hi Blake.
I think the layover is better than any other that I have seen. I think if it is controlled by a rod or cables is very much a personal choice, I have tried 20" 16" and wheelbarrow wheels on aus230, I will be sticking with the 20" wheel with the miracle tyre once again its a personal preference, maybe the 16" is quicker but did not feel right to me, it is great on the mini.

The 26"plug was made from plaster. The wheels are easy to make especially using the mountain bike rims tacked together. The main thing to watch is that the center bolt on
the gig is set square to the gig board and the edges of the disc are supported equally around the edges before gluing to the rim. I have used the centers out of my wrecked plastic wheels but maybe clem or hiko can post a plan of their centers

Merry Xmas to all

aus230

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
24 Dec 2010 11:54PM
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Select to expand quote



The 26"plug was made from plaster. The wheels are easy to make especially using the mountain bike rims tacked together. The main thing to watch is that the center bolt on
the gig is set square to the gig board and the edges of the disc are supported equally around the edges before gluing to the rim. I have used the centers out of my wrecked plastic wheels but maybe clem or hiko can post a plan of their centers

Merry Xmas to all

aus230



I agree with you AUS230 a locked Thread on Wheel Construction would be a great thing with lots of photos and diagrams etc. If you guys can make like we don't have a clew/clue.
Ron


Hiko
1229 posts
25 Dec 2010 7:13PM
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blake52 said...

I've been researching the wheel building forums (AUS 230)...like someone commented "sounds easier than it probably is." has anyone built wheels without splitting the mountain bike rim? Wrapping the glass around the bead? were the original molds plaster?
I'm using the NZ sulky wheels and so far no problems (we usually don't run in really hot places in the summer, because it often isn't windy) their 26inch ones might work, but they aren't mountain bike 26, so tires are nearly impossible here.

Is my "Rocket" really a "Gecko?" (I'm one of the guys who got the ones going to the US.)

It was really interesting to read what led up to AUS 230's spectacular crash...being 10 inches too far back would really cause havoc; even a couple of inches makes a difference.

The more I read old forums the more I hope I'm not making you guys rehash old concepts.

My next project is to glass a headrest onto the Rocket/Gecko. My temporary, taped-on one made a huge difference in comfort; I think I sail better when I'm not fighting to hold my head up. That has been my only issue with the Rocket/Gecko--I got spoiled because the US fed 5 was so comfortable--maybe I can hang one of those seats under the Rocket/Gecko's frame there are yotts that use that body and I think I know who has the mold.





Hi Blake
I think you may be referring to a Rocket 5 here in NZ that was carrying the name Gecko on it which was advertising for a local real estate firm The same yacht is now called "Mad Mike"
I couldnt imagine sailing without a decent headrest My headrest is just a homemade padded affair and works for me I know others who dont need one they must have strong neck muscles I think I also fitted a backrest inside which replaces the beanbag I used to have The beanbag was very comfortable but was a bit fiddly getting settled in at start time
I will try to get some photos up tomorrow
The 26 inch wheels several of us have made here are f/glass totally, rims and all made in a mould with an insert of aluminium scaffold tube in the hub to carry the
bearings. They have worked well. We generally use 2.5inchx 26 inch downhill tyres
with the tread removed and weigh 4kg with tyres tubes etc all up
I found making the wheels a bit of a mission especially the rim area and was the most ambitious f/glass job I have done. The side discs on mine are a bit wobbly
but they work fine

blake52
123 posts
26 Dec 2010 4:46AM
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Hiko,
We asked Bill and he told us they were "Rockets," I'll bet there is more history behind them than we, across the ocean, will ever know. I'm not sure I even want to know about "Mad Mike."
The style of steering thing has been an active discussion and fabrication project ever since the first Fed 5s were built here by S&R Marine. I think there have been a lot of incorrect conclusions drawn that have led people away from flop over style fronts.
It started when the original US Feds were built with flop over steering, but someone got it wrong, probably someone adjusted something to fix some issue and forgot about trail. They all came out of the "Factory" with a little lead, which nobody noticed in mild-condition testing (it was a well-proven design after all). They were then unleashed on the unsuspecting landsailing public at Ivanpah for a ridiculously cheap price..$1500 I think, all-up.(sarcastic there...they were anything but the unsuspecting public, centuries of combined sailing experience) They sold a bunch, and then the wind started to blow and the gymnastics began. They were absolutely diabolical on a fast reach. Once an oscillation began, it just got worse and worse until the powered-up spin started and people let go of the main sending the spin into a third dimension. About 1/4 of them changed hands at a discount that first week and flop over steering (and class 5 boats) got a bad name. Before I bought mine, most of the owners discovered the lead and bent or otherwise changed the angle of the forks getting close to zero trail. They were still twitchy at speed, but not undrivable (we also learned that sheeting out when things got wild just made them wilder--still hard not to do even knowing). So the Feds changed hands until most were owned by folks who liked or at least could deal with the exciting handling. The cut and weld that had adjusted the trail on mine failed spectacularly one and I ended up building a new front from parts. I read a lot about steering geometry, particularly in bicycles since I'm a cyclist and so much is published about that and built a new lay-over front, totally in the same concept as the original but with slightly different geometry. I settled on about 1/2 inch of trail, thinking that some trail would at least give the steering a slight self centering tendency. As far as I'm concerned it worked great. It didn't totally overcome all the less-attractive handling characteristics of a boat with very little weight on the front wheel, but I didn't feel like I was fighting it all the time on a reach (I found the less I drove, the more I just let it run, the faster it went--I was a happy camper).
Not everyone was so happy. I guy named Terry built a few bicycle-style fronts, darn similar to the set-up on my first landsailer on page one of this thread , and people put them on their Fed 5s. (picture below) Everyone who has done that swears by them and fully believes that getting rid or the flop-over steering is what caused the improvement. I'm skeptical. Terry builds a extremely solid product and got the geometry right, but in the spirit of "It is almost impossible to only change one thing," I think changes other than steering style were thrown into the mix. The whole set up is heavier and the front spar/strut/tube is a lot longer and has a bend, which makes if more flexible. I think most of the described steering improvement comes from those two things (weight and suspension)...it is so hard to know and without some really scientific test like the one Nikrum talks about with the racing wheelchairs (oops it was Gizmo). It is really frustrating not to have either the sailing time, the design time or the engineering background to really test this stuff beyond "seat of the pants" impressions. Plus, a better sailor often beats a faster boat, which distorts the whole already complicated equation. Sorry this turned into kind of a rant.
Blake

Hiko
1229 posts
26 Dec 2010 6:17AM
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Hi Blake
very interesting what you have written there regarding the steering
it all makes a lot of sense to me The design that Bill made was named Rocket
Gecko and Mad Mike were two names written on the sides of the same yacht
[A Rocket ] It has had several owners
I measured up the trail on my rigid forks on my Rocket today and was surprised to find it had 50mm [2inches of trail] as I have said before it has been the tyre that has made the biggest improvement to the steering I have about 10kg of weight on the front end and like you I believe the light weight up there doesnt help the steering

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
26 Dec 2010 10:05AM
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With aeach of my yachts - LLM, both Promo's & the three seater I have found that judicial use of body weight(sliding body forward/backward and side to side) turning becomes easier. Some times witn my LLM i actually have to sit up to get enough weight onto my front wheel, if it is blowing real hard on salt.

Hiko
1229 posts
26 Dec 2010 10:55AM
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I do the same on the cl5 on the beach dont remember having to do it on the mini yet though

blake52
123 posts
27 Dec 2010 8:31PM
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a couple of Duncan Harrison shots from Belgium...Dave Gluek,
Rocket class 5. These are stills from HD video. The camera is duct taped to the base of the mast.


blake52
123 posts
29 Dec 2010 12:54AM
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I just found
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Class-5-Sport/
which doesn't show up in the construction forum index and has plans that look like they might have been a big influence on some southern hemisphere designs. I don't know the admin details of this forum; is there a way to consolidate the design related history in one place? or even just a collection of links for all the related threads?
blake

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
29 Dec 2010 8:41AM
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Francoise Papon also sent me the same, it is the first version of the devil yacht, I built mine close to the plans but also carried over some of the NZ yachts ideas that I liked on my first class5
Cheers
aus230











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"Class Five Design" started by blake52