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All Forums > Land Yacht Sailing > Sail making > Revisiting my landsailer after 10 years!
Author Revisiting my landsailer after 10 years!
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VIC
75 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 8:02 am        Report    
Hi All, With the help of my father and other friends I built a landsailer when I was in my early twenties (some ~10 years ago now). It is predominantly built from aluminium scafolding tube, with a 5 meter aluminium mast (with zero rake). It's roughly 1.8 meters wide and 2.5 meters long. When I had it going I used a recut windsurfing sail, which I've still got (and would probably still be servicable) but it has seen better days and I'd like a replacement. So, down to the questions! Why dont people get sails made specifically for landsailing? Given that they're almost flat, why don't people make the sails themselves? With a non-curved mast like mine, would a recut windsurf sail ever perform well? Has anyone tried creating a hybrid foil with a aluminium frame like an ultra light and sail material? Any advice as to which way to go with this would be greatly received. Cheers Adam.
SA
2297 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 10:37 am        Report    
Hello Adam and welcome to the forum... let me answer (hopefully) your questions... Why don't people get sails made specifically for land sailing? They do but like most things custom made they are very expensive and possibly cost prohibitive for the newcomers, people that are passionate about racing do get them professionally made. Given that they're almost flat, why don't people make the sails themselves? Some have tried but its often easier to start with an older sailboard sail and re-cut it than to start from scratch. With a non-curved mast like mine, would a re-cut windsurf sail ever perform well? YES... despite what you think even a length of scaffold pipe flexes (this is what i used to use as a class 5 mast) its a case of matching the luff curve to the fully sheeted curve of the mast. Has anyone tried creating a hybrid foil with a aluminium frame like an ultra light and sail material? Yes... but normally in the larger class yachts like the "Standart", wing masts / rigs generate enormous amounts of power with a lot of it downward putting a lot of pressure on the yacht frame. Class5, Promo5 and Mini class yachts rules prohibit the use of this style of rig setup. Here is a pic of the Standart set up..
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 11:45 am        Report    
Hi Brian, thanks for the reply. The chassis of my land sailer is scafolding tube, the mast is made up of standard alu tube, three sizes inside each other at the base, tapering off to one size at the top. But you're probably right it would flex a little. In it's current form the boom is not fixed on the mast, relying solely on the sail tie down. So you seem to be pointing me back towards re-cutting a windsurfer sail, as I'm not really up with the lingo, can you suggest what to look for in a windsurfer sail for re-cutting purposes? Also, a little off topic, I was contemplating changing the steering mechanism from rod to two tensioned wires, do you have any opinion on either of these? Cheers, Adam.
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 12:28 pm        Report    
Hi Mr Squish, On your need for info on Steering . I built a Quadrant for the steering of Occum's Razor from Flat Sheet Metal 1mm and 4MM thick pieces. The quadrant is approx 140mm across. The construction is 2pc 1mm and 1pc 4mm. There is a good picture on http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Just-working-out-a-build/?page=12. Check those pages and you will find other ideas for the setup. I used a high tech rope for the wires and some Trampoline Springs to tension it, it is a very efficient system and quite sensitive requiring a lot of concentration at speed. If you need any further info just ask. Ron
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 1:39 pm        Report    
Hi Ron, Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking. I found some 100mm stainless steel sheaves on a trade website, but I was intending on having those at both ends. The wire I was thinking 3-3.2 mm stainless wire rope with bottle tensioners. Did you have a semi-circle on the foot pedals too?
SA
2297 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 5:57 pm        Report    
Some of the NZ and European guys sail with the booms just attached to the foot (bottom) of the sail, most of the Australian people sail with a mast yoke which is normally a nylon rowlock available from marine stores. Have a look at this link of how to re-cut sailboard sails for land yachts. http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Sail-making/How-I-recut-sailboard-sails-to-suit-landyachts/
WA
5126 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 7:56 pm        Report    
how about putting up some photos of what you have before anything else. we need to know the dimensions of the ally in the mast, if its 3 sections it shouldnt be scaff tube. lets have a look at the steering set up first , changing it may be unnessary, and could make it worse,. there are lots of windsurfer sails that can be recut,have a look at some of the older sailmaking threads , there are some good examples there
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 8:37 pm        Report    
Hey guys, thanks for the replies. Yep no worries. Maybe if I get home early enough tomorrow I'll have enough light to take some pics of what I've currently got in place. I'm wanting to replace most of the bolts as they've been out in the elements a bit and are rusty but I should be able to get most of it together to get the idea. Cheers, Adam.
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 29/08/2011, 8:51 pm        Report    
mrsquish, I will have to take a pic to show my system. It is a simple pivoted bar with plates welded to it which i drilled several holes to vary the sensitivity of the steering. the entire shebang is mounted on a rail so that leg length can be adjusted. As the adage goes "A picture is worth a thousand words". Ron
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 30/08/2011, 3:52 pm        Report    
mrsquish, Hopefully these pic's will help your cause,
WA
984 Posts
Posted 30/08/2011, 5:17 pm        Report    
These pix are really realy small
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 30/08/2011, 9:09 pm        Report    
Nikrum said...
mrsquish, Hopefully these pic's will help your cause,
Yeah! Sorry about that. I had a slip of the trigger then tried upload pic's under Edit and it all turned to Shiite. Try again I don't know but it looks like I've been banned from uploading pic's?? Ron
United States
1014 Posts
Posted 31/08/2011, 1:51 am        Report    
Nikrum said...
Nikrum said...
mrsquish, Hopefully these pic's will help your cause,
Yeah! Sorry about that. I had a slip of the trigger then tried upload pic's under Edit and it all turned to Shiite. Try again I don't know but it looks like I've been banned from uploading pic's?? Ron
It's no wonder after reading some of your previous posts
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 03/09/2011, 1:24 pm        Report    
Eureeka! Ron
WA
5126 Posts
Posted 03/09/2011, 7:18 pm        Report    
before you go chopping the yacht,,definitaly show us some pics of what you have . nikrums set up is an interesting way to correct a steering problem that he built into the yacht, you probably wont have that problem to start with
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 03/09/2011, 7:58 pm        Report    
Ok, here they are! Spent a few hours getting the landy put back together. With newly fitted bearings, new alloy and stainless front wheel, and new stainless eyebolts and nuts ready for some rigging. The mast is has more rake than I remembered, which is a good thing because I thought it was almost vertical. Foot pedal, with "universal joint" hose attachment. Would like to change this for a universal joint with a little more finesse. Head, with universal ball joint, nothing really wrong here except for the bolt being used to connect the steering column. Seat area, something is missing here! My other pride and joy, helping me put the landy back together.
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 03/09/2011, 9:38 pm        Report    
Hey! mrsquish, Just looking at your pic's. So who put the last one together??? Looking at your Land Yacht I'd say you need to add Diagonal Bracing from the Spine to the Axle Beam to keep it from flexing and slipping sideways. I personally go much on Pipe Clamps--------but that is me. For a return to sailing it is a good start though. As "The Bug" locks it's jaws firmly into your mind you will probably start want to UPGRADE to something bigger and faster and therein lays the real fun. Ron
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 04/09/2011, 3:40 pm        Report    
Hey Nickram, Yeah, there used to be a little lateral support in the old seat in the form of a triangle brace. I would like to get that back into the new seat, but in addition I plan to add some new rigging, from mast to axel, axel to somewhere near the base of the mast. I'm also toying with adding some from axel to back to the post hehind the seat, but that might be a bit of overkill. I put this landy together in my early twenties, with the help of my father and friends who worked in the university engineering department who did all of the aluminium welding, tube bending and thread turning. So in short I didn't do a whole lot, more of a project manager/designer than actually doing the work. But being a uni student at the time, I didn't have a whole lot of resources to throw at it. Now that I have a little more, I'd like to rework the areas I find offensive. Adam.
SA
2297 Posts
Posted 04/09/2011, 5:49 pm        Report    
Here is an idea for bracing... this is a yacht I built in the mid 1985 from aluminium scaffold tube the entire yacht was clamped together and could be adjusted when needed.
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 04/09/2011, 6:23 pm        Report    
Just noticed, if you look carefully at the photo of my son. He's giving me the finger! little bugger.
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 04/09/2011, 7:48 pm        Report    
Well I wonder who might have taught him that???? For a first build it isn't bad and considering the time frame of the build there wouldn't have been a lot of info about at the time. I reckon your machine will only serve to wet your apatite. Mind you Steel is the way to go these days and Councils leave strategically placed pipe for a build. Ron
WA
5126 Posts
Posted 04/09/2011, 8:03 pm        Report    
theres not really anything that will improve the steering, I would leave it alone. perhaps a newbolt hole at the base of the mast step(it looks familiar)which would allow a little more mast rake , some short light braces made from 20mm electrical conduit, and a new seat. should sail fine
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 06/09/2011, 7:54 am        Report    
Hey guys, yeah, I think the steering can stay as it is, but I think I'll replace the hose with some kind of uni joint. I distinctly remember building this off a rough plan which used steel pipe I believe. The scaff tube Dad procured from somewhere free (Don't ask, Don't tell). I may have gotten those from a old friend of my fathers named Martin who lives in SA, (was/is) married to a lady named Marion, Gizmo you may know him he was\is into Land yachting for years. He was probably my inpiration for building one in the first place actually, even though I was 4 I think when I had my one and only ride in his landyacht almost 30 years ago now. As for Steel? Really? Seems counter productive to me to use a material so heavy. What about carbon fibre? Too exy for most folks I guess. I reckon you could make a relatively light steel frame by keeping the wall thickness down, then filling the tubes with expanding foam to prevent the walls from bending. Adam.
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 06/09/2011, 11:15 am        Report    
Just noticed the Pacific Magic plans article. They look extremely familiar!
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 06/09/2011, 12:31 pm        Report    
Squishman, That, I think of steel, it is heavier than Ali' and helps keep all wheels on the ground. I found the more a LY Healed over the more wind was spilled and tended to slow you then there is the Change of configuration the more heal the greater the difference in steering Blah blah blah. Ali was a problem for most people as well welding etc. and it was cheaper up until the Chinese got involved in the market. CF ? Hmmm! I wonder who else got involved in that.. Oh! Yeah! That was me---- in recent times. Sure it is lighter and to a point stronger. Mostly it has not been designed to take a lot of Torque and it either has integrity or it doesn't i.e. It doesn't bend much. The original Schrodinger's Cat worked for a short period until gusty conditions tore it apart at the Mast Step so there may need to be a bunch of CF Bandaging in that area. I have used steel as a Spine and Rear Axle Hangers with CF Mast and Axles. They are good------I think. Still more to come on that issue. I thing if one went with a Steel system as in Pauls "In the Spirit of Stupidity" with Axles and Mast being in CF. As for the Forward section, Spine to Steering??? I don't know. Schrodinger's cat Steering section worked OK and would probably stood up to the Test of Time... May-hap but it didn't get the chance. Ron
SA
2297 Posts
Posted 06/09/2011, 8:30 pm        Report    
Yes I know Martin and Marion very well.. Martin and I designed and built the "Sandpiper" class yachts many years ago. The yacht you have is sort of a cross between the class5 "Hotstuff" and the Pacific Magic" as there are bits of both in it. As mentioned Ali is hard to weld (well) and the choices of ali tube of high quality have diminished over the years, so steel become the material of choice especially drill core tube. Nikrum has done a great job with carbon fibre for a chassis but a lot of the material decision also comes to class rules as class 5 actually specify "Metal Tube". Just be careful with foam filled steel tube as moisture trapped could cause bad rusting problems. The Mini class has certainly opened up the materials that can be used, I'm just waiting to see a timber yacht in the class.
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 07/09/2011, 7:27 am        Report    
Hey Gizmo, Great to hear that you know Martin, next time you speak to him tell him Leigh Hardy's son Adam says hello. I must admit I was thinking stainless for foam filled. If I do build another the Class 5 takes my interest. It would seem, given the wide variety of Class5 pictures that the specifications a quite, liberal. Cheers, Adam.
SA
2297 Posts
Posted 07/09/2011, 9:47 am        Report    
Adam here is a link to the various class specs... Class5, Class5 promo and Mini class. the Class5 rules are actually quite specific to the yacht design its a lot more than just length and width. http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/General/Land-Yacht-Class-5-Mini-Yacht-Specs/
WA
984 Posts
Posted 07/09/2011, 4:19 pm        Report    
mrsquish said...
Just noticed, if you look carefully at the photo of my son. He's giving me the finger! little bugger.
So mrsquish, did you name him Laureland
VIC
75 Posts
Posted 07/09/2011, 5:26 pm        Report    
I think you might be onto something there. It hasn't been named yet! :)
TAS
1961 Posts
Posted 07/09/2011, 7:05 pm        Report    
Squishman, Don't go with all the BS and S/Steel. More than likely (If you look after it) your machine will last a long time. Good Ol' Gal Pipe will last a while anyway and you will want to upgrade or change to something else. Stick with the Cheaper option have your fun and enjoy building. I was looking at S/S, C/F etc. Paul/Landyacht had his 5cents worth and I took the advice. It is remarkable what INOX will do. I weigh around 100Kg Occum's Razor weighs around 48Kg and it is easy to keep the wheels 3x3 (3 on the ground). Keep your costs down or go buy a commercial unit. I am sure you could spend a small fortune on someone elses build. Ron
 
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