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Forums > Land Yacht Sailing > Sail making > what to do with this!
Author what to do with this!
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QLD
192 Posts
Posted 15/1/2012, 12:38 pm        Report
got this from the tip shop cheap. It's got a panel blown out at the bottom, and a few small pnctures. Also the bottom two battens are missing. generally i'd say it's well used! I'd like to end up with something bigger, (around 5m) for light wind days which we seem to have quite a lot of lately, (i know making this a big sail will change that!) Is it worth the effort?
TAS
1964 Posts
Posted 15/1/2012, 2:13 pm        Report
OK! Grynch, Chuck a Re-cut pattern over the Leading edge and see what you will loose there but I'd say with part of the bottom removed and the lose from the Luff Edge you'll still finish up with very close to 5sqm. It would appear that he Bottom Panel is the Blow Out and it's lose would happen in a re-cut anyway. Stitch the Luff Pocket Re-cut the Luff Edge and Tape the pocket back in place. If you feel that this is beyond you, It Is Not and a Sail maker can sew it for around $150. Ron
WA
1564 Posts
Posted 15/1/2012, 4:31 pm        Report
The small punctures and tears on monofilm sails can be patched up with fibreglass reinforced tape (bunnings), And as Nik. said- with the blown out section most likely being removed during recutting you will be close to 5 m anyway. Depending on the shape of the sail- you might not have to reshape the curve of the leading edge and pocket. Tie a rope from the top of your mast to the rear of your boom and then haul down the sheetrope to your working height, lay the landyacht on its side (easy with axles removed) and take a pattern off the curved mast. Lay that pattern over the sail you have and see if they match from the top to the level of the boom. As long as the curve is pretty close, you might be able to get away with cutting on a line drawn from the bottom of the pocket where it has the opening for the original windsailing boom, to just below the hook on the trailing edge of the sail, sewing on a hem, maybe a bit of reinforcing on the corners, and an eyelet on the bottom of the pocket. With a bit of luck they will be near enough without modifying apart from cutting off the damaged bit, the "hem" on the lower edge can be done at any canvas works or upholstery shop, or at home if you can rack up enough brownie points to get past the protector of the sewing machine As you preferably need a wide zig-zag, the canvas works are probably best- they can put in decent eyelets for you too. Should cost about a carton. A few of the other fellas on the forum can probably explain it a bit better than me- you will probably hear from them soon enough.
WA
5228 Posts
Posted 16/1/2012, 6:34 pm        Report
PM chook2 and work with him on this as he has developed a knack for redoing these sails withoout any major recutting. you may have to remove the bottom panel , but chook is the current expert
WA
814 Posts
Posted 17/1/2012, 12:37 pm        Report
Dunno about that Paul!!!! You are just a good tutor. These sails are really good if it's the "cammed" RAF, in lighter winds. I don't windsurf, but I'm guessing the masts that are used on these sails must be really stiff. The leading edges of these sails are just the perfect curve for a mini. That is by laying "Pauls template" over it. Even the angle for the boom is correct with the mast tube attached to your chassis at 10 degrees. I just remove the bottom batten along with its cam and the sail is ready to fit. I leave the back eyelet high away from the boom, so not too much sail overlaps the boom. (It needs a fair bit of out haul as well). I have had to extend my boom since this photo to put more pressure on the sail. A mast extension is needed to get the boom up higher. Use aluminium tube from an old windsurfer boom for the extension. The extension needed is very long and the down haul is not very forgiving in a tip over with a timber extension. I've ripped 2 mast pockets being a jew and using hard "ramin" wood. The bottom edge curve of the sail will overlap the boom by 80mm or so in the centre of the boom but this really helps when it powers up and easily changes sides when turning etc. These sails need LOTS of downhaul. So haul them down just as the windsurfers do. Pull like hell. You won't be disappointed with this sail and leave it at the 6.9 size for lower winds. I'm heavy at 108 kgs and sail in 20 knot winds with my 6.9. A few guys have taken it for a spin and they were impressed, as they were becalmed and couldn't believe it would get them going in such a light breeze. Took a bit to get it back, till the wind came up enough to use his yacht to get out to him to swap back again. So I guess, stick it on a mast and try it first for fit and just get the panel repaired. My mast is now 4850mm over all, with the tube extensions and wooden plug in the top to take the pin. Chook
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 17/1/2012, 6:30 pm        Report
Cool, Thanks Chook..... so basically what you are saying is leave it as is and go for it! It does look a bit wide for a mini though. Also i thought the luff curve is a bit full compared the Paul's curve. Food for thought though
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 17/1/2012, 6:39 pm        Report
Cool, Thanks Chook..... so basically what you are saying is leave it as is and go for it! It does look a bit wide for a mini though. Also i thought the luff curve is a bit full compared the Paul's curve. Food for thought though
WA
814 Posts
Posted 17/1/2012, 7:00 pm        Report
Yes just run with it, I reckon. When I laid the template over mine it was within 5mm at the middle so I left it. The roller cams can be fiddly till you sort them out. Just put the mast in the yacht and run the sail on. (Don't bother about clipping the cams on at this stage). Put a light downhaul on the sail, (with the yacht on its side) and then push in the centre of each batten and clip the roller cam onto the mast while still pushing hard in the centre of the batten. They clip on in a flash and then into the downhaul rope with a bit of muscle. The batten tension doesn't even have to be eased off to fit them as these sails have a very wide mast pocket. I asked the question in the general forum, as to why the long sail didn't make any difference to the rear stepping out? Still open to suggestions here. You are going to enjoy this one!!!!
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 19/1/2012, 7:12 am        Report
Ok at this point I'm undecided ifi'll cut this sail or not. However I have decided that it needs to go on a new mast. I'm sure this info is somewhere here but I can't find it What to look for in a carbon mast? Rdm or sdm %carbon Length (guessing as long as possible) Do they still need re-enforcing All that stuff. What works? Thanks
TAS
1964 Posts
Posted 19/1/2012, 8:01 am        Report
OK! Grynch man, You could PM AUS 203 (Dave) He is a highly experienced Speed Wind Sailor,, I bought a mast from him recently of lower carbon content.. He reckons that it is a very tough mast as opposed to 100% CF, CF either is or isn't as it is so brittle that it just snaps without warning.. I cannot give you all he said as it was too much for me to digest at the time.. I would be looking at around 60% CF though.. Ron
WA
1153 Posts
Posted 19/1/2012, 3:53 pm        Report
I've had a 30% carbon mast for 5 years and given it hell no problemo's
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 20/1/2012, 5:49 pm        Report
thanks nik and TP1, did/do you still need to re-enforce the base on a carbon mast?
TAS
1964 Posts
Posted 20/1/2012, 6:05 pm        Report
I don't know about small sails but I have already Pulled a Mast down on myself under a 5mtr+ Speed Sail so I do suggest you find an old Mast Base and stuff it up the bottom of your good Mast Base to at least a meter or find a Long Base Wood Lathe and some Ash or Tassie Oak with a good straight grain. Ron PS Do not the Sheet Go when Spinning Out.. Masts Do Not like it..
WA
814 Posts
Posted 20/1/2012, 9:17 pm        Report
Yes, all my masts are internally strengthened. I go to my local "roo bar" manufacturer and grab 700mm long bit of 48mm x 3mm aluminium tube. About $12 each. This is a great fit up most of the masts. In the smaller diameter masts I use 45mm x 3mm. Sometimes a few laps of insulation tape, 50mm up and 500mm from the end is used to centre the tube in the mast till the silicon drys. I use "roof and gutter" silicon, (72hrs to dry) or if you are rich and in a hurry, sikaflex to glue them in. At the top of the 700mm (inside the mast bit) I cut 4 slots down it for 150mm and then cut in between these slots with 4 more 75mm to make fingers that will flex a bit to relieve the stress point. Don't use liquid nails with an aluminium support, as it won't dry, in the airless environment. (Just like still being in the tube) I could pull them out 2 weeks later. The liquid nails was the same as when I had put it in. Works a treat on timber though.
WA
1153 Posts
Posted 21/1/2012, 1:28 pm        Report
I have a 6" length of wood siliconed in the bottom to stop any crushing damage(note to self:- redo as has been loose for last year or so)
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 22/1/2012, 3:50 pm        Report
Think this sail might be shagged, (shoudda been a clue since it came from a recycle shop). Some significant areas of small cracks and holes. Oh well $5 is still OK for a set of battens!
WA
1564 Posts
Posted 22/1/2012, 4:08 pm        Report
Get a roll of 50mm wide fibreglass reinforced tape from bumblings (or wherever) and tape over both sides of the cracks and holes- cut off the real bad bottom damaged section just under where the second batten pocket is and give it a go. (the batten pocket becomes the new hem.) If it doesnt work- you still have a spare set of battens. A roll of tape @ about $15, and a sail @ $5 = cheap experiment that could well prove successful. stephen.
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 22/1/2012, 4:21 pm        Report
I had actualy took your advise and started doing exactly that stephen. the more i looked the more i found. I managed to get the tape real cheap, (, love working in the right industry!) Upon further inspection, the problem seems limited mainly to section with the Niel Pryde logo, (still sprawled out in the back yard). You make a good point. I've already spent the money, may as well have a practice at cutting this down.
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 26/1/2012, 6:46 am        Report
Hoping someone can help with this. I aquired this mast, I thought at first it was just another fibreglass, but it has a much thinner wall that the other fibreglass i have. Also it appears to have a strip of carbon or something down each side. It also has a permanent bend though that might be due to how it was stored! It also seems to taper off quite quickle at the tip. anyone know what this is? Thanks
SA
2435 Posts
Posted 26/1/2012, 8:22 am        Report
It looks at an "Asymmetric" mast.... nice find It should give less flex against the carbon sides and still giving good forward / back flex to shape the sail. Water yachts like the OK Dinghy and the Finn class often used a tapered oval shaped mast to achieve the same thing (stiff side-side and soft forward-back)
New Zealand
904 Posts
Posted 26/1/2012, 8:25 am        Report
Never seen anything like that before but it does look like it has carbon strips laid down the sides As you say the bend may have been from storage ? Could be a good mast or at the very least stiffeners for another one and the top could make a boom Either way its a good find
WA
5228 Posts
Posted 27/1/2012, 9:02 pm        Report
grlynch said...
Hoping someone can help with this. I aquired this mast, I thought at first it was just another fibreglass, but it has a much thinner wall that the other fibreglass i have. Also it appears to have a strip of carbon or something down each side. It also has a permanent bend though that might be due to how it was stored! It also seems to taper off quite quickle at the tip. anyone know what this is? Thanks
can i suggest reposting this in the windsurfing section. i would be interested to know the age and history ofthis mast type
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 28/1/2012, 5:48 am        Report
good idea.
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 28/1/2012, 3:47 pm        Report
little bit of feedback from the windsurfer guys, could be a rotho duo? "This looks like a rotho Duo from the eighties. Made in West-Germany. The Duo was designed as a mast with two built in curves/stiffnesses. Of course it didn't work. Delamination of the carbon strips were unsurprisingly also an issue." Thinking however i'm going to jam a bit of a fibreglass i've got into it, and maybe run some glass cloth over the outside
WA
1564 Posts
Posted 28/1/2012, 5:18 pm        Report
reinforce the base, run with it and see what happens, if it breaks- you can always use part of it for a boom and some as a base stiffener for another mast. either way- you cant lose. stephen.
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 9/2/2012, 8:17 pm        Report
I know this is not really the section for talking about masts but i will anyway...... I am in the process of splitting what's left of an old fibre glass mast so i can slip it into the base of this mast. We'll see how it goes. However i have been thinking quite a bit about masts lately. Paul you mentioned in another thread that you don't have a single carbon mast. I am curious as to what you do use. I was under the impression that if you can't find a carbon mast then keep looking! Also I am fortunate enough with my current employ to be able to liaise with our "cost effective northen neighbours". I've got a few carbon manufacturers giving me pricing on tapered masts. However one of then want's specific details on the dimensions of a mast as they can produce pretty much anything and can supply small quantities, (10-20). Might be an opportunity to get a buying group for supply of dedicated LY masts!
TAS
1964 Posts
Posted 9/2/2012, 9:23 pm        Report
Sounds good Mr Grynch. Currently I am using 100% CF Gastra Ignitions which function well but require reinforcing in the base for about 500 - 700mm an internal taper would even be better, similar to that used in Fishing Rod Construction. You have to remember that due to our method of mounting that Standard CF Wind Surfer Masts tend to crush under extreme load therefore need to be at least 4mm Wall thickness at the base. I have used your idea of Splitting a mast section but I slipped and Epoxied it in place over the mast base and I suggest that a further section internaly would be wise as well but it does work. Down She Comes is an example of what happens to un-reinforced CF. Ron
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 17/2/2012, 6:39 pm        Report
OK this was most likely a good find... and i'll have a bit of a fixup and get it going soon i think. But then on my weekly pilgrimage to the tip shop looking for masts I found this....
WA
5228 Posts
Posted 18/2/2012, 5:21 pm        Report
I save any mast in any condition.,even bits. if they are furry I leave them until Ihave some fibreglass resin mixed, then if there is any leftover resin I add some talc and slap it on the furry mast. this can then be sanded back and you have a usable mast. If I want a stiffer mast I choose a mat that has less taperat the top then slide a skinny top up inside until it stops. this stiffens the base by squeezing some silicon in as you do it it stops the inner rattling when not in use. for smaller storm sails I try to cut a custom mast for that sail rather than have a load of mast sticking out the top. my smallest sail, a 1.8m niel pryde has a 3.1m one peice mast which appears to have some long strips of carbon inside, maybe 10%.
QLD
192 Posts
Posted 1/3/2012, 12:08 pm        Report
I was just going to go ahead and do this, but some nagging instinct is telling me to ask first. My plan is to split the base of an old furry mast lengthwise, (about 1m long) and coat it with resin as I push it into this mast. Reackon this would be enough?
TAS
1964 Posts
Posted 1/3/2012, 2:59 pm        Report
Grynch, Inside, outside I don't think it will make much difference which that will be your call. I have used the same method successfully(Damn! a lot or doubles in that word) on the outside but be sure you make the section a little smaller than the inside circumference of the main mast base and you will need a lot of pressure to slide it home. Give yourself some extra length,200mm, to allow for a little damage and it would help if you had an assistant standing by. I had a devil of a time getting mine to slide over the mast. Finding the inside diameter should be fairly easy. The mast material should be consistently 2mm but double check.. I did this by making a ply disk 4mm smaller than that of the mast at the top point (This was for another job). Fit the disc to a dowel/stick the length you intend to use and slip it down the mast as far as you can to prove the theory. The piece you want to slide inside should then be easy enough to remove a sliver from to get close to the right size but in the circumstances you should remove a little more than less. At the mast base you should chamfer inwards to help the Resin go in with the inner section. Make sure you have the job well greased with RESIN, both inner and outer, and a weighty assistant to help push the reinforcing inner piece home. The two of you can then stand the mast Upright and apply all the weight you can. You may need a heavy Mallet and a piece of waste plank to drive it in. That is the reason for the extra length of the reinforcing piece and it can be cut and finished when you're done. I also found the when splitting the CF masts, the CF tended to close up and jam the grinder. Yes! Those thin biscuit grinder discs are great for the job BUT DO take the piece to be cut outside and DO WEAR a dust Mask. That crap is not good for the Lungs. Hope this is off use to you and any other person doing this sort of thing. I would also suggest that if you have a wood lathe or someone that does, Cut an length of timber a bit longer than your mast step and turn it down to suit your mast inner and glue it home and to finish off the job I reckon you should counter sink and put a couple of screws in (Not more than 25mm from the bottom). That will help prevent Collapse of the ast under extreme use. Ron
 
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