Right of Way Rules

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ianyoung

649 posts

ianyoung

WA, 649 posts

12 May 2004 9:32am

The current AKSA and WAKSA endorsed safe kiting guidelines can be found on the Seabreeze WAKSA forum. The current right of way rules can be found on the AKSA website under "Events" then "AKSA Competition Guidelines" at ~~http://www.aksa.com.au/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Judging%20and%20Scoring%20Breakdown.doc~~

WAKSA have recently endorsed the CLEAR safe kiting guidelines which simplifies many aspects of the first set of guidelines but we need expand on areas like an agreed Australia-wide set of right of way rules. One area that currently has no agreement is wave riding - there appears to be 2 schools of thought: windsurfing rule currently endorsed in the old guidelines as "Incoming kitesurfer to give way to outgoing kitesurfer" and the surfing rule of whoever gets on the wave first has right of way.

What do people think of the old guidelines and right of way rules?

CAUTION

1097 posts

CAUTION

WA, 1097 posts

12 May 2004 9:59am

I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT IT SHUD BE LIKE THE OLD SURFERS WAY.
BASICALLY ANYONE ON A WAVE HAS RIGHT OF WAY N EVERYONE ELSE(THAT BE WINDSURFERS, SURFERS OR KITESURFERS, NOT THE PUBLIC) GET OUT OF THE WAY.
JUST MY OPINION.

davea

37 posts

davea

WA, 37 posts

12 May 2004 10:35am

CAUTION that is an interesting point of view. However whenever I am surfing and on a wave, I am responsible to ensure I dont run people over in the channel. It is much easier for a fast moving object to move out of the way then for someone slow moving to try and paddle, sail or kite out of the way.

Again just my opinion.

steve

108 posts

steve

WA, 108 posts

12 May 2004 11:01am

I don't like the surfers way. I had the experience a year ago that some tom-selleck-look-a-like on a malibu run me over at trigg because he felt he didn't have to care that his nice long ride from far out (where longboarders pick up and go thru the crowd at speed then) out all the way to the shore would be his no matter what. I can still feel the bump under my knee where i got hit.

Anyway, this rule might make sense in the context that the wave is your only means of power on a surfer. Guess when you have a kite, you have more options.

Just my divine enlightenment.

(Yeehaa, this is gonna be another controversial thread to have keyboards rattling [}:)])

CAUTION

1097 posts

CAUTION

WA, 1097 posts

12 May 2004 11:48am

AGAIN I SAY THAT WE MUST GIVE WAY TO THOSE THAT CANT GET OUT OF THE WAY QUICK, I.E SWIMMERS/BODYSURFERS/LEARNERS/FOILS(KIDDING), BUT FOR THOSE THAT ARE OUT THERE FOR A WAVE, THEY LOOK FOR IT AND CHASE IT UP SO THEY SHUD HAV RIGHT OF WAY, BE IT A SURFER, POLEBOARDER OR KITER.

I WAVE SAILED IN GERO FOR 10 YEARS RANGING FROM KNEE HIGH SLOP TO MAST N HALF PLUS. IF U R OUT THERE U R RISKIN URSELF GETTIN POUNDED FOR THE THRILL OF GETTIN A GOOD WAVE. THE BEST FEELING IS WHEN U ACHIEVE THAT EVEN IF U DO WIPE OUT TO GET IT, BUT THE WORST BLOOD BOILING FELING IS WHEN U HAV SET URSELF UP FOR A PERFECT SECTION AND SOMEONE GOING OUT DECIDES THEIR RAMP FOR A BIG BACKLOOP IS MORE IMPORTANT SO U HAVE TO STALL THEN GET CLOSED OUT, OR TAKE OUT THE JUMPER THEN CAUSE TROUBLE (WHICH NORMALLY HAPPENED IN GERO CAUSING FIGHTS ON THE BEACH AND WELL KNOWN ATTITUDE BETWEEN 'LOCALS' & 'EUROS'.
NOW I AM JUST GETTING INTO WAVES KITING BUT I FEEL IT IS THE SAME.
UNFORTUNATELY THOSE THAT ARE OR 'THINK' THEY ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS GO OUT THERE AND HOG AREAS FOR JUMPING OR WAVE RIDING AND THE REST JUST GET OUT THE WAY OR FACE EITHER A MOUTHFUL OF ABUSE OR A TANGLED MESS.
AGAIN AS THEY SAY, JUST MY OPINION. (AND U KNOW I LIKE GIVING IT)
TAPY T TAP TAP TAP

steve

108 posts

steve

WA, 108 posts

12 May 2004 12:40pm

quote:
I WAVE SAILED IN GERO FOR 10 YEARS RANGING FROM KNEE HIGH SLOP TO MAST N HALF PLUS

Caution, I envy you

. I only "wavesailed" knee to waist high slop so far and never will be up to a mast n half.

CAUTION

1097 posts

CAUTION

WA, 1097 posts

12 May 2004 1:57pm

yeh dem were the days when kiddies was fun, sunset cranked, the spot rocked and gnarloo was all time.
unfortunately all perth has to offer is knee high slop, which is why i started kiting.
now i just gotta get my kite skills to combine with wave riding so i can rip that slop.

jkeys

188 posts

jkeys

WA, 188 posts

12 May 2004 2:58pm

I think Ian is purely asking about the right of way between kiters (as we ALL KNOW - Kiters give way to all other water users)
IMO - At the beach on waves the first person riding a wave has right of Way - as with surfers - its the only way. Again common sense must rule at all times. I agree with Carl on flat water that is a completely different issue. In the states USA they use the first on wave has right of way rule. I have kited and used this rule with the windsurfers at Cottesloe off the small groyne and there were NO HASSLES. Its pretty easy you see a kiter or wind surfer riding a wave for 50m before it breaks AND he/she is on the inside thir wav, it's there wave. If some TURKEY is riding a swell and is totally out of position to actually ride the breaking wave closest to the white water, then in my opinion I have every right to ride that wave IF I STAY OUT OF TURKEYS WAY. I practice this format every dat at Cottesloe

bolgo

912 posts

bolgo

WA, 912 posts

12 May 2004 4:00pm

been surfing 20+ years
first on the wave is yankee bulldust
never ever seen it used in oz
inside ie closest to the breaking part has priority
the guy on the wave has right of way, very bad form to interfere with a persons wave, ie paddle out thru the break, sit like a kook in the way
kiters and wind "surfers" should learn and adhere to the basics if they are to get any respect,
if you can't, fo somewhere else, its only your ego thats getting in the way

Shannon

489 posts

Shannon

WA, 489 posts

12 May 2004 4:10pm

We all know thats the case for surfing Bolgo, kiting's different, you're on the wave long before it breaks, therefore I think its first on the wave has priority, also when you ride in on a lump there is no breaking section to be closest to.
But I also think common sense is the best way to go, give everyone plenty of room and its all good.

Shannon

--------------------------------
FIRE AWAY

sandoz

48 posts

sandoz

WA, 48 posts

12 May 2004 4:44pm

Um, surfing priority rules operate more like this:
1. Lives there
2. Tattoos, looks mean
3. "Closest to breaking part of wave" or however you wanna say it

I'd imagine kiting wave priority would go something like this:
1. Lives there
2. Tattoos, looks mean
3. Cheap kite, could give a -
4. "Closest to..."

Yea, I dont know, but there's a lot of coast here, guess what I love so much about kiting is you don't get a crowd focussed on a single peak waiting for the dude farther up to either miss the wave or fall. Makes anywhere a potential playground. Fifteen guys shouting at each other on the merry go round? Then you'll find me on the monkey bars. Simple as that.

Russell

2 posts

Russell

WA, 2 posts

12 May 2004 6:59pm

I think that the AKSA rules make good sense in flat water and out the back and on the inside, but when you get to the surf zone surfing rules should apply.
- Usually the person closest to the peak or braking wave has priority.
- However in sometimes the first person on the wave has priority (no snaking!)
- It is really bad form and can be dangerous to the guy on the wave to get in the way of someone riding a wave (eg paddle for the shoulder & collapse the section)
In surfing the rules flex depending on the wave and the standard of the surfers, but you know if you are doing the righty or not (and it is usually obvious to all watching).

Applying surfing rules to kiting is just common sense with the odd look over the shoulder - dont drop in, dont snake and dont get in the way of someone on a wave. Then anything else goes!

steve

108 posts

steve

WA, 108 posts

12 May 2004 10:29pm

Sandoz, U forgot hair style comes right after tattos:

Short cut >> Bald >> Pony Tail >> all topped by Dreadlocks.

poor relative

9106 posts

poor relative

WA, 9106 posts

13 May 2004 12:12am

surfing rules i thought were that the person closest to the curl on take off has right of way over those on the shoulder, then the guy on the wave has right of way and its the responsibility of those paddling out to get the hell out of the way, ie not paddling madly to make it over th shoulder but paddling into the curl.
I don't see how these rules could be applied to kiting at all.

Just a humble opinion

sandoz

48 posts

sandoz

WA, 48 posts

13 May 2004 7:27am

steve, you're absolutely right, can't be stressed enough in wave-riding conditions. Unclear on whether you think dreadlocks has priority over bald spot. Should, in my opinion. Either way, I'm pretty sure anyone who said the words "closest to curl of breaking wave" or any combination thereof aloud in the lineup would not be getting another wave that day.

CarlBevo

NSW

609 posts

CarlBevo

NSW, 609 posts

13 May 2004 10:26am

Heres my 2c worth

1) If you are not going to ride waves, stay out of the surf zone particularly if others are surfing it

2)(Incoming)Closest to the breaking part of the wave - who is upwind of the other rider has right of way

3)(Outgoing) If you have just ridden a wave you should blast back out the back and not muck around in the surf zone - leave it clear for down the line riding

- unless there is absolutley no one around do not turn off the top of the next approaching wave while heading out, redirecting again back to the shore - if you are going to do this always look upwind and over your shoulder you could be about to drop in on someone

MikeN

368 posts

MikeN

WA, 368 posts

13 May 2004 9:21am

Well said Carl , covers it all .
The most annoying thing out there is the kiters that hog the inside going out and back and never get on a wave .
I know this is usually due to lack of understanding and not really worth stressing over in Perth because all we are riding is slop but have watched people do this at Margs and Lancelin and pissing everybody off . This makes all kiters look like selfish wind wa....
Since the begining waves have been about respect , we are last to arrive , we should give way first (except to boogers )and follow the surfing rules that the windsurfers have also adopted in the waves .

ianyoung

649 posts

ianyoung

WA, 649 posts

13 May 2004 9:38am

Firstly rules are there as a guide - anyone who "demands" right of way is a bloody idiot - there's always times when someone is caught in a lull, used poor judgement and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time - most of us who have done that know that we've stuffed up, try to apologise and learn from our mistakes.

#1 rule is use common sense!

The main problem areas that I have seen wave riding are:

when people are launching off the beach and either don't look or don't care and jump right in front of someone coming down the line.

when a rider coming out boosts off the lip right in front of someone coming down the line

when a rider coming out boosts off the lip right behind someone coming down the line and almosts lands on top of them
when someone coming out smacks a hard turn off the lip right in front of someone coming down the line

and when you go out the back in the circuit and line your next wave up then someone short-cuts the circuit - I find this particularly annoying when there's heaps of waves going unridden anyway

All of these are just plain rude, obnoxious, selfish and often unsafe. All they have to do is wait for the down the line rider to go past then rip when it's clear. Like windsurfing and surfing, all you have to do is get in the line up and take your turn if it's that crowded - sure if someone misses the wave and there's enough time and space to be safe then go for it.

The only argument I can see against this is where the beach is in turbulence and people really need to get on the water quickly, BUT again if people open their eyes BEFORE they launch to start with they wouldn't have to try and park their kite while they're waiting for the wave rider to clear.

We all love boosting off and smacking the lip hard but in most cases all you have to do is one extra gibe on the inside to wait for someone to get clear before you go for it.

Most of these problems would go away if everyone followed the "CLEAR" guidelines.

I'm also with Carl, if you're not actually wave riding then please go somewhere else or at least out the back away from the break.

I'm for the guy on the wave first (even if it hasn't broken) has right of way.

Cheers,
Ian Young
www.flysurf.com.au
0414 716 812

Andris

102 posts

Andris

WA, 102 posts

13 Dec 2005 9:01am

Good crowd out at Cott on Sunday am with wind 20 - 28 kts (except that 35 kt squall at 10.00 am).

Kiters and Windsurfers together on the waves / lumps no worries (with Windsurfers generally 50 - 100 m upwind).

My only issue was suicide man on a grey 8m (North?) staying on the same tack right in an out in the middle of the wave zone preventing people riding down the line. Riding in right to shore and sometimes up the beach.

Any suggestions for effective means to indicate displeasure?

Carl Bevo once suggested a bar mounted air horn!

mattressbuster

177 posts

mattressbuster

WA, 177 posts

13 Dec 2005 9:20am

Andris - i was out windsurfing on a 5.5( a relatively large sail)from 9 - 12 am.

No way was it 20 - 28 knots. It was 12 - 20 - that squall was maybe 25 knots - i have been windsurfing (and kitesurfing)for many years and know my windstrengths pretty well. Many kiters (almost all)overcall windstrengths which is ok until you really try and hold down a 12 in a real 35 knots as measured off a wind gauge. (you will have no chance whatsoever even if its a bow) - this is a potential safety issue so overcalling the breeze needs to stop!

It was a little tight and i nearly got hit twice by kites - once was my fault as i turned around (gybed) to be greeted by an incoming booster flying out of the sky towards me. The second time a kiter flew about 6ft in front of me directly across my path doing a mini bum slapper jump.

No hard feelings here as I am relatively comfortable with kiters - i kite myself but a non kite aware windsurfer may have felt differently.

airhead

814 posts

airhead

WA, 814 posts

13 Dec 2005 9:36am

quote:
Originally posted by Andris

My only issue was suicide man on a grey 8m (North?) staying on the same tack right in an out in the middle of the wave zone preventing people riding down the line. Riding in right to shore and sometimes up the beach.

this guy is a serial offender

RAL INN

2898 posts

RAL INN

SA, 2898 posts

13 Dec 2005 12:43pm

very often kiters are out there with sialboards and it makes sense for all to follow the same rules.

therefore following the rules in place the longest also makes sense.

the person in most control has the obligation to avoid an incident.

any rules that fit in with this are Ok by me.

A kiter aparently unaware could be approached even on the water and politely asked " are you aware of the rules here" if no then politely ask him to return to shore with you and you will explain them.

It will at a very least make you a new friend.

best winds
Tony L
ABK

Uminaboy

NSW

97 posts

Uminaboy

NSW, 97 posts

13 Dec 2005 2:34pm

Right OF Way Rules
1-Pro Surfers
2-Angry surfers sandoz was talking bout
3-Local Surfers
4-10 more surfers
11-kiters
12-Mal riders
13-goatboaters
14-sailboarders
15-bodyboarders
ect.....
and at the bottom
japanese people on bodyboards hahaha
fat chiks floating round on matresses
ethnic guys that bashed up surfers at cronulla and burnt our flag ****ERS!!!!!!!!

Kitingpaul

36 posts

Kitingpaul

WA, 36 posts

14 Dec 2005 8:58am

Well thats the end of that discussion - who can argue with that !

ran

VIC

333 posts

ran

VIC, 333 posts

14 Dec 2005 12:22pm

Uminaboy... LOL, LOL....
i think if you are confused about rules at a new spot ask the Locals, general rules should apply everywhere, but certain areas have hidden dangers or maybe the locals just have a certain way of using limited space, Locals generally all know each other and over time have developed rules that work (and if not they have punched on and the rules have been worked out that way) all i know is that when i learned to kiteboard i asked the locals kiters, and they said just kite away from us LOL, no they slowly helped me out as i got to know them. Now im part of the group i have noticed certain rules on jumping etc are deiscussed often as we have alot of toursists and groms here, anyway my advice is Ask the locals, Dont be a ****er hero, ask the locals, and even if your in the right avoid the collision if the other wally isnt going to, better to work it out later than crash i say.
Is you come down to Noosa river mouth and you are not local say hi to us, we are more than happy to chat to you about kiting, im the 6ft tattooed one and always happy to help out the ladies...LOL

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

14 Dec 2005 10:34am

If you obey all the rules.....
You don't get to have any fun.

sue

48 posts

sue

WA, 48 posts

14 Dec 2005 10:39am

Glad to get some basic easy rules about this. I have started going to Cott after work for a change from Woodies. I have no experience on the waves at all so I just keep up the back out of the way. I usually stay until 7pm when everyone else leaves and then I have a play in the waves and enjoy the sunset. Although I do keep an eye out for fins, feeding time and all that.

sue

quote:
Originally posted by ianyoung

Firstly rules are there as a guide - anyone who "demands" right of way is a bloody idiot - there's always times when someone is caught in a lull, used poor judgement and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time - most of us who have done that know that we've stuffed up, try to apologise and learn from our mistakes.

#1 rule is use common sense!

The main problem areas that I have seen wave riding are:

when people are launching off the beach and either don't look or don't care and jump right in front of someone coming down the line.

when a rider coming out boosts off the lip right in front of someone coming down the line

when a rider coming out boosts off the lip right behind someone coming down the line and almosts lands on top of them
when someone coming out smacks a hard turn off the lip right in front of someone coming down the line

and when you go out the back in the circuit and line your next wave up then someone short-cuts the circuit - I find this particularly annoying when there's heaps of waves going unridden anyway

All of these are just plain rude, obnoxious, selfish and often unsafe. All they have to do is wait for the down the line rider to go past then rip when it's clear. Like windsurfing and surfing, all you have to do is get in the line up and take your turn if it's that crowded - sure if someone misses the wave and there's enough time and space to be safe then go for it.

The only argument I can see against this is where the beach is in turbulence and people really need to get on the water quickly, BUT again if people open their eyes BEFORE they launch to start with they wouldn't have to try and park their kite while they're waiting for the wave rider to clear.

We all love boosting off and smacking the lip hard but in most cases all you have to do is one extra gibe on the inside to wait for someone to get clear before you go for it.

Most of these problems would go away if everyone followed the "CLEAR" guidelines.

I'm also with Carl, if you're not actually wave riding then please go somewhere else or at least out the back away from the break.

I'm for the guy on the wave first (even if it hasn't broken) has right of way.

Cheers,
Ian Young
www.flysurf.com.au
0414 716 812

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