sigh foil v lei

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jan
jan
WA
1119 posts
jan jan
WA, 1119 posts
11 Jun 2004 1:42am
moved from graeme's accident report thread
quote:
Secondly, and appologies to Ian Young, powerful foils are very dangerous. I have flown several, then changed to 4 liners, and was thinking of getting another mainly for the aesthetics....its a beautiful thing. BUT, then I watched in awe as a mate of mine was SUCKED up 20 feet into the air by his 9m warrior in a wind that momentarily increased form 12 to 18kn. No joking, it was not an extreme wind, and second by second he just went higher and higher over the sand, heading for the dunes. By shear luck when he came down (hard) he had no more than bruising. He sold the kite next week and bought an inflatable.

So to push my point, I think modern foils are totally unsuitable unless you are an expert. Combining my 2 points, don't choose a foil on a day that squalls are likely.

I can't resist. And we all love LEI vs Foil arguments ;)

Different kites behave differently.

Suggesting that Graeme using a Flysurfer (Warrior 9.3? in this case) was a contributing factor simply because it was a Flysurfer is just plain silly.

Any kite is able to loft a rider.

Modern foils (in my opinion) have a number of benefits for learners. Suggesting they should be for experts only is just as silly.

Flysurfers have a very nice safety aspect, very easy to kill the power then pick the kite back up again. ARC's stability makes dealing with boards and your surroundings awfully easy and G10's gust handling ability is well known.

It really comes down to personal preference or choice.

Choose the RIGHT SIZE KITE for the conditions, not the right (mis?)advertised brand/model.

-jan
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gasman
gasman
WA
320 posts
WA, 320 posts
11 Jun 2004 7:03am
In the case of my mate, he did have the "right sized" kite for 12/18 kn, and he depowered fully, yet kept on going up. But I agree, it clearly was too big.
Afterwards, he was given the advice that when he first felt himself going up he should have pulled the quick release.

But, I have never been lofted more than 1 foot in 5 years of kiting.
Further, once you are even 4 feet up, pulling the quick release over a hard packed beach ins an uninviting proposition.

CAUTION
CAUTION
WA
1097 posts
WA, 1097 posts
11 Jun 2004 8:52am
GASMAN, GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE STIRRING THE POT OTHER THAN MYSELF
ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
11 Jun 2004 5:13pm
gasman - if your mate is the only other lofting incident that I am aware of in Perth with a FlySurfer then he is significantly lighter than me (I am 85kg) and we all know that body weight is also part of the equation no matter what type of kite you fly.

I advise ALL my students no matter what type of kite they fly to only go out in the lower half of the wind range for their body weight until they get some experience. If it's the guy I think it is, then the wind range for a 9.3m Warrior for his weight is 7-14 knots - he specifically wanted a kite to get him going in light winds because he said he was still going to go windsurfing when it was 15 knots or more. I also suspect that he probably pulled in max power which is often still the instinct when still learning.

I usually switch to my 5m Maniac at around 18 - 20 knots even though I can safely hang on to my 9.3 Warrior up to 25 knots+ - I personally always prefer to leave more safety margin when it comes to wind strengths and downwind buffer zones.

It is a fact that foils are more efficient ie a 9m foil will generate the same lift as a 12m+ LEI but they also have more wind range - this should provide more safety margin if used sensibly.

To suggest that foils are any more dangerous than LEI is simply not based on fact. As has been pointed out by others - lofting can, and has happened, to many LEI riders - it is assessing the conditions that is the issue, not the type of kite you are flying.

Cheers,
Ian Young
www.flysurf.com.au
0414 716 812
kiterdan
kiterdan
WA
680 posts
WA, 680 posts
11 Jun 2004 7:18pm
ALRIGHT!!! this is what we need...about time we had a bit of controversy
gasman
gasman
WA
320 posts
WA, 320 posts
11 Jun 2004 10:14pm
quote:
Originally posted by ianyoung

gasman - if your mate is the only other lofting incident that I am aware of in Perth with a FlySurfer then he is significantly lighter than me (85kg) and we all know that body weight is also part of the equation no matter what type of kite you fly.

I usually switch to my 5m Maniac at around 18 - 20 knots even though I can safely hang on to it up to 25 knots - I personally always prefer to leave more safety margin when it comes to wind strengths and downwind buffer zones.

It is a fact that foils are more efficient ie a 9m foil will generate the same lift as a 11-12m+ LEI but they also have more wind range - this should provide more safety margin if used sensibly.

To suggest that foils are any more dangerous than LEI is simply not based on fact. As has been pointed out by others - lofting can and has happened to many LEI riders as well - it is assessing the conditions that is the issue, not the type of kite you are flying.


Cheers,
Ian Young
www.flysurf.com.au
0414 716 812




You're right Ian, David's only about 70kg, mainly muscle (he'd tell you its all something else).
So here you've got a bloke, been windsurfing for 20 years, has one kite, and its blowing 12 kn.........lets go for a sail. But bugger, a gust of wind and he's in all sorts of ****.

I know YOU can hang onto your kite.........I don't know anyone that sails as well as you.........but here I come back to my point; a powerful foil is a dangerous tool as a first kite, and in particular an ONLY kite for an inexperienced kiter.

I'm only venting this because I saw David nearly get maimed, and when I found that this poor other bugger had such a narrow escape, I felt a social responsibility to voice my concerns.



gls
gls
WA
284 posts
gls gls
WA, 284 posts
13 Jun 2004 7:27pm
Hi Guy's
The whole lofting took place so quickly I didn't have time to do anything. Being pulled from the water, it takes a few moments for your vision to clear and work out where you are. Its then too late. My whole concentration was then on holding onto the bar, rather than risking letting go and reaching for the quick release.

I've been flying the Flysurfer foils since December '03, and am very happy with them. I've had only one other incident where I was badly teabagged because my kite kept looping. I don't really blame than on the foil though. However I have to say that I've not go the experience with LEI's or Arc's to compare. That's something I'd like to do when I get back into the water next summer.

I would tend to listen to guy's like Jan who own a LEI and foil, for a qualified comment.

Regards
Graeme
dachopper
dachopper
WA
1802 posts
WA, 1802 posts
14 Jun 2004 6:10am
moral of that story was... if you get lofted
1. Don't kite loop
2. use the kite to soften the landing...
I was the guy who rammed into the limestone wall in the river a few years ago, and i was fine... just dont stop flying the kite and dont stop trying to stay in control, caus when you do,,, thats when you get yourself in more trouble.

as for LEI vs rammies.... The LEI high aspect kites that i used, have without a doubt The biggest wind range, ie the most depower available,, especiallv vs ARCs, but the facts are rammies no matter wat brand , have the highest power / size ratio in any kite, and are slower, so how could you argue they have more depower and are safer?... you only ever get screwed on a kite if your using the "right" sized kite, and the wind ups by 40% + ... I estimate the gust that jhit me to be over 40KTS, AND SEABReeze registered a 37 kt. that was on a 15 inflatable....
any i've been lofted, in around,25 kts + on a 15
ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
10 Feb 2005 4:25pm
Well Done Laurie (and others that helped) create the FAQ - what a great resource!

I thought that while I was revisiting the old Foil vs LEI debate that I'd list what I believe the main strengths of the FlySurfer foils are - some of these points also apply to Arcs, etc but not all:

  • Much quicker setup than LEI

  • No leaks, punctures, etc and even if you damage your kite in a high impact crash a FS can nearly always be flown back to the beach – in similar impacts a LEI will often blow a LE tube or split stitching and you'll have to swim in

  • Bigger wind range (particularly the bottom end) – typically 15 knots vs 10 knots for LEI. This means: 1. safer because the kite will not loft or overpower as easily 2. convenience of not having to switch kites as often as wind changes 3. economic because 2 FS will cover same wind range as three LEI

  • MUCH quicker and easier to re-launch off the water than even 5th line LEI

  • More compact and lighter (saves excess baggage when traveling)

  • Safer because FS riders don’t hesitate to use their QR because re-launching is never as issue. Whereas many LEI riders cannot use their QR instinctively because they never want to let go of their bar. The three fatalities in Oz were all LEI, all had QR, sadly not one was used

  • Can use smaller kite sizes and better upwind ability than LEI due to aerodynamic efficiency of double-surface wing

  • Don’t need to upgrade kites as you progress from beginner to Pro – I teach with the same kite I use in comps

  • FS kites are more durable – they will last 2-3 years if looked after whereas LEI stitching is always under pressure even if never crashed and don't last as long

  • More versatile for dual water/ land/ snow/ ice use



Unashamed lover of foils; someone who makes up my mind based on facts and experience rather than following the crowd and worrying about fashion statements - I import them because I like to fly them - I fly them because they make my total kiting experience more enjoyable I teach with them because the principles are the same no matter what kite you fly and it's easier, quicker and safer for students to gain skills and knowledge.

Always happy to let people see for themselves - so rather than bag something out that you've never even flown, why not give me a call and try a FS?


Cheers,
Ian Young
www.flysurf.com.au
0414 716 812
getfunky
getfunky
WA
4485 posts
WA, 4485 posts
10 Feb 2005 5:00pm
I have only been lofted once and I don't know if there are lofts and there are LOFTS, but it was an experiance I will remeber.
I had a med aspect 10m LEI out in abot 18-22 kts so correct kite and not out of control cruising along when I was so effortlessly (and not at all radically) lofted by a gust that while powerful didn't feel "aggresive". I related this to a mate as going up in an elavator - very smooth.
I kicked off my board instinctively then waited to reach the apex of flight to decide what I was going to do next, then looked down and was shocked to find myself at least twice as high (poss 3+ mtrs) as I thought! With plenty of clear water all around I just let the kite fly me back down and didn't have to let go etc.
I think like most new people I expected something of a scarier jolting affect and will now be more aware next time to release earlier if there is traffic or other hazards around.
any similar experiances?

Getfunky
Bacon Dancing
Bacon Dancing
WA
35 posts
WA, 35 posts
10 Feb 2005 5:15pm
How is the weather on Mars this time of year?
getfunky
getfunky
WA
4485 posts
WA, 4485 posts
10 Feb 2005 11:04pm
Much more pleasant than Uranus actually...

Getfunky
robbo
robbo
WA
306 posts
WA, 306 posts
10 Feb 2005 11:35pm
man i'm trying my ass off to jump higher than 3m. i'd be stoked with 5.
course, never been on the other side of the coin where you don't know when its gunna stop.

Hey when u r lofted, arent sure if u will stop going up, and u have passed the 5m point ( havent seen this one asked yet), do you slowly put ur kite over to the side of the wind window, keep riding it out at 12, or bite the bullet, and pull the safety?

i saw a vid of a guy lofted all over some island the other day, and it was freaky - he just kept going - looked like about 50m high, he sailed it down eventually but looked like he landed pretty hard. got everyones attention...

btw: whats the price comparison on leis to foils these days ?


robbo.
Dean Gilkison
Dean Gilkison
WA
107 posts
WA, 107 posts
11 Feb 2005 9:32am
I've flown (and began on) ARCs, both S and Guerillas, and now I'm flying LEIs. I still think that the ARCs are a tonne safer for beginners than LEIs, purely because they move slower and are much more 'stable'.

Having said that, All kites are powerful... LEI and Foils
I witnessed an occurance the other day when a friend was lifted off the beach, and although it was a gusty day, quite simply, the kite was in the wrong place.

The fact was that it had nothing to do with the sort of kite, and really the wind was not a big factor, it was kite position (IMO).

Fortunately, there was no injury, however it was interesting having a conversation about it later, and the differences in points of view coming from the person attached to the kite who said "i got gusted", to me saying "the kite was in the wrong position".

Foils vs LEI's... both have advantages and disadvantages... can discuss this till the cows come home... or goats for that matter. Point is, they are all powerful and can drag a human body around with great ease if the person flying the kite isn't putting the kite in the right spot.

eg... if you loop any kite you're going down to funky town!! :) yee haa!

as a beginner, you should be ready to pull QR at all times if anything at all goes a little pear shaped, I know it saved my beginner arse a few times :P

Safe Kiting Everyone!! ;) Cheers - Deano
ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
11 Feb 2005 9:44am
Robbo, re price comparison a 9.3m Warrior (10 - 25 knots) and a 5m Maniac (18 - 32 knots) for 80kg rider - 2 kite quiver RRP new @ $3055.

Of course there is a huge variation in new LEI prices ATM but if you compared the FlySurfer quiver with three LEI's required to cover the same wind range then you'd be looking at something like a 15m, 12m and 9m with RRP today off the net of between $5100 and $3250.

Plus the convenience of not having to run to the beach and pump up a bigger kite as the wind drops.
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