Working out for Kiting

> 10 years ago
Reply
Register to post, see what you've read, and subscribe to topics.
g-dog
g-dog
WA
145 posts
WA, 145 posts
19 Jan 2005 11:58pm
I'd be interested to know of anyone has tailored an exercise routine towards kiting.

For the record, I'm 104kg and although I have a bit of extra padding which I'm trying to lose, I would say I have good strength and good stamina, (think ex-rugby) but below average flexibility everywhere, especially back and calves. In fact, placing the board at my feet for a start is the limit of my range of movement and I haven't succeeded yet, but I've only had a total of 5 hours under a kite so far since I had my first lesson 11 days ago. I have access to a small gym at work, which I use regularly. I don't have my own kite or board yet, but I've been getting good off-list advice on that.

Is anyone working out in a gym with a goal to improving their abilities on the water? And if so, what so you do to help? I think flexibility is possibly where I need to focus for now.
bondo
bondo
QLD
699 posts
QLD, 699 posts
20 Jan 2005 9:08am

try ashtanga yoga - its strength oriented and has fast results. i used it to help with a nasty shoulder injury earlier in the year.
Kitehard
Kitehard
WA
2782 posts
WA, 2782 posts
20 Jan 2005 7:27am
G'Day G-Dog,

I used to rock climb on weekends and do indoor climbing during the weekdays. It helps you lean down, get strong and stretch shortened muscles. Also gives you a chance to work the mind and teaches you focus.



Good winds and Peace
Rosy
Rosy
WA
175 posts
WA, 175 posts
20 Jan 2005 8:45am
ashtanga yoga is definately really good and pilates, great for muscle control and increased stamina and flexiblity.
Wat always helps is also a good stretch in the mornings as soon as you wake-up. nothing to sweat breaking, but the usual things you'd do b4 running or cycling, Eg: stretching your leg, back and arm muscles. Not only does this make your body feel good, but it will also increase the amount of thyroxine that is pumped through your body during the day (thyroxine being the hormone that > your metabloc rate)
Otherwisem, i always find that after i kite i have more adrenaline pumping through my body, so i go for a work out or training
Keep things regular and ur body will larve u 4 it
-Kat
FlyingWhiteBoy
FlyingWhiteBoy
WA
111 posts
WA, 111 posts
20 Jan 2005 8:54am
At 104kg you should be hitting the cardio pretty hard especially for kitesurfing. Work your way up to 1hr of heavy cardio 4 times a week. Dont try and do this immediately as your heart might explode (look up heart explodingitis in the medical journals), you also do not want to risk an injury as it will hold you back months if not for good. As a ex-rugby player I'm sure you know how to build up your fitness... just dont overdo it at the start, build up slowly and stretch heaps and heaps. If at all possible, do one of your cardio sessions on the sand.
Swim at least once a week (make it part of your cardio regime). You are going to want to be confident that you can swim 1.5km back to shore after 2 hours of hard kitesurfing. Swimming also helps considerably strengthen your back which is very important when wrestling an out of control kite. Rowing is also a great cardio exercise for getting a powerful back.
Do heaps and heaps of squats, NOT the kind where you load up the bar with all the weights you own plus your kids, keep the weights low enough to just get out 20 to 30 reps WITH GOOD TECHNIQUE!!!! Never do squats with a poor technique cause you will and up with a bad back or a hernia! Keeps the reps moving from a slow to medium speed never quickly, dont let momentum play a part in the lift. Build up to 5 sets of 20 to 30 reps, but again start off easy and keep good technique otherwise you risk injury. I didnt realise how much kitesurfing worked my quads until my first session over an hour and a half.
Lots of chinups or lat pull downs, with lots of variations in width of grip and the direction your palms face. Again instead of going for pure weight, try and keep the reps between 20 and 30. Try to use your back to pull your shoulders as far down as possible FROM THE START OF THE REPETITION, this will put much more of the force onto your back which is what we are trying to strengthen. Keep the repetitions at a slow to medium speed to reduce the momentum of the lift and to reduce injury.
The same goes for Cable rows as it does chinups. Again pull your shoudlers back from the start of the rep to place more force onto your back.
KiteHard suggested rockclimbing which is also great for back strength and flexability, maybe include it as a cardio session if you climb hard and long enough!
WORK THOSE ABS!!!!! Lots and lots of situps, not much to be said here except keep a gap the size of a tennis ball between your chin and your neck and use a mat. Do situps that you are comfortable with not ones that hurt your back, include leg raises as well.
When you accidently unhook from your kite it is handy to have powerful triceps to get the bar back down level with the hook. Tricep push downs on a cable machine (sorry I cant recall the correct name) is the exact motion you will need to get the bar hooked back in. Stick to heavier weights with lower reps for this one as the motion may only be performed a few time in one kitesurfing session.
In addition to all of this include a demanding stretching regime, as Bondo suggested try different styles yoga a few times a week or maybe pick up a couple of Ballet classes It is important to be very flexible as it will drastically reduce your chance of injury and most importantly stop most chronic injuries that can lead to persistant problems for decades.
These are the specific exercises I would recommend to get the most out of a kitesurfing season. Personally I would add some dead lifts plus some bicep, chest and shoulder work but only for the look.

First go see a sports doctor, get him to check out any problems with joints or mucles, get a general cardiovascular and respiratory examination and make sure your iron levels are high. If you have low iron levels you will make yourself sick and fatigued within days.

At 104kg you will also need to change your diet to lose weight and to accomodate the extra cardio work! More complex carbohydrates, less fats, no refined sugar, heaps of fruit (introduce the fruit gradually unless you want to have ass-explodingitis), legumes, beans, some red meat for iron BUT replace half of your meat intake with fish, avoid chicken because of the hormones that give men bitch tits. You will find that if you drastically reduce your dairy intake you will have more energy BUT still maintain enough to provide your body with calcium. Replace any wheat in your diet with oats. The last two points are included as much more than 50% of the population has either a wheat allergy or a dairy allergy or both AND they will experience a great increase in energy if they remove those foods from their diet.

THIS WILL TURN YOU INTO THE ULTIMATE KITING MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone can come up with any other exercises for specific muscles used for kiting that I havent included, please share!!!

Good luck!
FlyingWhiteBoy
FlyingWhiteBoy
WA
111 posts
WA, 111 posts
20 Jan 2005 8:54am
At 104kg you should be hitting the cardio pretty hard especially for kitesurfing. Work your way up to 1hr of heavy cardio 4 times a week. Dont try and do this immediately as your heart might explode (look up heart explodingitis in the medical journals), you also do not want to risk an injury as it will hold you back months if not for good. As a ex-rugby player I'm sure you know how to build up your fitness... just dont overdo it at the start, build up slowly and stretch heaps and heaps. If at all possible, do one of your cardio sessions on the sand.
Swim at least once a week (make it part of your cardio regime). You are going to want to be confident that you can swim 1.5km back to shore after 2 hours of hard kitesurfing. Swimming also helps considerably strengthen your back which is very important when wrestling an out of control kite. Rowing is also a great cardio exercise for getting a powerful back.
Do heaps and heaps of squats, NOT the kind where you load up the bar with all the weights you own plus your kids, keep the weights low enough to just get out 20 to 30 reps WITH GOOD TECHNIQUE!!!! Never do squats with a poor technique cause you will and up with a bad back or a hernia! Keeps the reps moving from a slow to medium speed never quickly, dont let momentum play a part in the lift. Build up to 5 sets of 20 to 30 reps, but again start off easy and keep good technique otherwise you risk injury. I didnt realise how much kitesurfing worked my quads until my first session over an hour and a half.
Lots of chinups or lat pull downs, with lots of variations in width of grip and the direction your palms face. Again instead of going for pure weight, try and keep the reps between 20 and 30. Try to use your back to pull your shoulders as far down as possible FROM THE START OF THE REPETITION, this will put much more of the force onto your back which is what we are trying to strengthen. Keep the repetitions at a slow to medium speed to reduce the momentum of the lift and to reduce injury.
The same goes for Cable rows as it does chinups. Again pull your shoudlers back from the start of the rep to place more force onto your back.
KiteHard suggested rockclimbing which is also great for back strength and flexability, maybe include it as a cardio session if you climb hard and long enough!
WORK THOSE ABS!!!!! Lots and lots of situps, not much to be said here except keep a gap the size of a tennis ball between your chin and your neck and use a mat. Do situps that you are comfortable with not ones that hurt your back, include leg raises as well.
When you accidently unhook from your kite it is handy to have powerful triceps to get the bar back down level with the hook. Tricep push downs on a cable machine (sorry I cant recall the correct name) is the exact motion you will need to get the bar hooked back in. Stick to heavier weights with lower reps for this one as the motion may only be performed a few time in one kitesurfing session.
In addition to all of this include a demanding stretching regime, as Bondo suggested try different styles yoga a few times a week or maybe pick up a couple of Ballet classes It is important to be very flexible as it will drastically reduce your chance of injury and most importantly stop most chronic injuries that can lead to persistant problems for decades.
These are the specific exercises I would recommend to get the most out of a kitesurfing season. Personally I would add some dead lifts plus some bicep, chest and shoulder work but only for the look.

First go see a sports doctor, get him to check out any problems with joints or mucles, get a general cardiovascular and respiratory examination and make sure your iron levels are high. If you have low iron levels you will make yourself sick and fatigued within days.

At 104kg you will also need to change your diet to lose weight and to accomodate the extra cardio work! More complex carbohydrates, less fats, no refined sugar, heaps of fruit (introduce the fruit gradually unless you want to have ass-explodingitis), legumes, beans, some red meat for iron BUT replace half of your meat intake with fish, avoid chicken because of the hormones that give men bitch tits. You will find that if you drastically reduce your dairy intake you will have more energy BUT still maintain enough to provide your body with calcium. Replace any wheat in your diet with oats. The last two points are included as much more than 50% of the population has either a wheat allergy or a dairy allergy or both AND they will experience a great increase in energy if they remove those foods from their diet.

THIS WILL TURN YOU INTO THE ULTIMATE KITING MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone can come up with any other exercises for specific muscles used for kiting that I havent included, please share!!!

Good luck!
azza
azza
1338 posts
1338 posts
20 Jan 2005 9:34am
all of the above and just keep kiting... i've lost 4 waist sizes since i started. the downside of this is the cost of a new harness and not being able to wear last seasons fashions this season ;-)
ADS
ADS
WA
365 posts
ADS ADS
WA, 365 posts
20 Jan 2005 12:30pm
Get in the water, that will get you fit!
CAUTION
CAUTION
WA
1097 posts
WA, 1097 posts
20 Jan 2005 1:17pm
WITH FLYING WHITE BOYS ROSTER YOU MAY HAVE TO QUIT WORK AND EVEN GIVE UP SOME KITING SESSIONS TO GO TO THE GYM AND SWIOM AND STRETCH AND EAT 6 MEALS A DAY ETC. ETC.
I AGREE WITH AZZA, KITE HARD A FEW TIMES A WEEK AND THE WEIGHT RIPS OFF U.
DO HEAPS OF RALEYS TO STRETCH UR BODY OUT, MIX IT UP WITH HEAPS OF GRABS SO U GET THOSE AB MUSCLES BURNIN AND UNHOOK AT LEAST TWICE A SESSION TO STRENGTHERN THE BACK, SHOULDERS AND TRICEPS.
MAYBE ONCE A WEEK DO A SESSION WITH ONE KITE SIZE BIGGER THAN U SHUD TO WORK THOSE LEG MUSCLES AND ALSO DOUBLES AS A GENERAL ALL OVER BODY WORKOUT.
MAYBE FOLOW FADA ISSA'S LINE AND START BLOWING UP UR KITE WITH UR MOUTH, THAT SHUD HELP UR CARDIO VASCULAR SYSTEM.
OH AND LASTLY TELL UR LADY FRIEND YOU NEED HEAPS OF BED ACTION OR YOU ARE GONNA SET UP CAMP NEXT TO THE BEACH AND NOT BOTHER COMING HOME AT NIGHTS ANYMORE AND THAT SHOULD MAKE YOU THE FIT MAN.
THEN YOU GET TO WINTER AND HIT THE GYM AND EAT HEAPS OF CHEESY GOODNESS TO PREPARE FOR NEXT YEARS WEIGHTLOSS AS WELL AS BEING ABLE TO HANG ON TO THOSE HUGE WINTER SQUALS.
jan
jan
WA
1119 posts
jan jan
WA, 1119 posts
20 Jan 2005 8:40pm
yoga for flex... a lot of back aches and niggles stretch away to nothing :)
padbury
padbury
WA
20 posts
WA, 20 posts
20 Jan 2005 9:23pm
G-dog I see you're from Perth.

Body drag loooonger down the beach so you have to do longer "walks of shame". And walk quickly don't plod. Soft sand walking, especially with a kite trying to drag you towards the dunes is a good way to fast track your body fitness.

If you prang your kite and can't relaunch, detach your lines wind em up and briskly walk back up the beach into the breeze kite floating under your arm, this gets the heart rate up to training range!

When you've got the stamina to drag down and walk up the beach half a dozen times without to much fatigue later. Try body dragging from Pinaroo Point north to Mullaloo past the livesaving club (watch the no go zone) once or twice a week!
Take your time, enjoy the ride. Tack out and back to control your distance off the shore. You won't even notice the strength stamina a coordination developing with each trip. It's a wild ride!

You'll notice all three of these fitness training techniques happen at the BEACH not the gym and involve a KITE not weights.

Not only will you find your general and kite specific fitness improve quickly but your kite skills sprint ahead along with your open water confidence.

I know, I did it that way. Lost weight, gained confidence, flexibility, strength and stamina and good kite skills too.

If you do the big body drags off-shore, wear an impact vest and maybe a cutoff wettie for bouyancy aids, if you are unsure about being off the beach that far. And already knowing how to water launch your crashed kite would be useful too.

We're balanced together ocean upon the sky.......NOT!
(It's a goal of mine you know, the ocean, the sky, the balance. Newbies gotta have goals you know!)
Airush Flow 12 '05 / Switch 150 '04.
g-dog
g-dog
WA
145 posts
WA, 145 posts
20 Jan 2005 9:54pm
Cheers guys for all your advice. Lots of good stuff in there and I'm surprised no one's brought this up before. FlyingWhiteboy - don't know if I can take it all on at once (have to work, have to kite etc), but you've given me lots of great options and I'm sure I'll try most of them. I tried Caution's suggestion of blowing up a kite with my mouth today, just for a laugh, but I couldn't get enough pressure in the struts and I was too buggered then to attempt the leading edge. I might try it again when I'm a bit fitter and see how I go.

In the immortal words of David Starsky - Do it!
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
20 Jan 2005 10:43pm
Try the poor relative diet.
Patented and copyrighted unfortuatly.

I get my mates to buy me guinness and pies. I then drink the guinness and eat the pies. When i cant get anyone to do this for me, i buy myself guinness and pies and drink the guinness and eat the pies.

I love guinness and pies in fact that is all i eat and drink, oh apart from the occassional lager and the odd pastie.

I have also increased my tobacco intake. I now smoke 30mg capstan super full strength

Consequently i have a body like big kev, breath like a dog, and teeth taht are grey. If you take my tips you will become a kiting machine, look like me and also the chicks will love you.


-----------------------
Thanks for the tea missus and i do apologise for eating the last piece of cake
hirschausen
hirschausen
WA
422 posts
WA, 422 posts
20 Jan 2005 11:00pm
Ok, I live for kiting, I'm a PE teacher and personal trainer so I have a few good tips for you.
Firstly, lose the padding big guy, a rugby player is not a kiter, strength is second place to agility and reaction time. Moving your muscles quickly is a must if you want to get better (better=more fun).

1.When you can do 10 chin-ups in a row, you are getting there in strength and body weight. Start by doing one then two, build up and make sure you never do less than the last time you did chin-ups. The same is fine, you will find that you might get stuck on seven or six for a week or two, that's fine, that's when you focus on what you are eating.
2. Stomach muscles... lots of sit-ups crunches leg raises, whatever works for you, but the stomach muscles are critical to speed and balance. watch your kiting go through the roof after a few weeks of consistent stomach work-outs.
3. Cycling....great for the knees and all round leg strength, skip the weights on the legs and go mountain biking. The balance shifts on trails mixed with climbs and lots of falling off helps you focus on your balance.
4. Watch what you eat.
5. If you always do, what you've always done,you will always get, what you've always got. Change your'e routine.
Go hard and don't be scared.
FlyingWhiteBoy
FlyingWhiteBoy
WA
111 posts
WA, 111 posts
20 Jan 2005 11:59pm
"WITH FLYING WHITE BOYS ROSTER YOU MAY HAVE TO QUIT WORK AND EVEN GIVE UP SOME KITING SESSIONS TO GO TO THE GYM AND SWIOM AND STRETCH AND EAT 6 MEALS A DAY ETC. ETC."

What??? Thats only a bit over half of what I get in every week as well as juggling three jobs and a medical degree!!

Yeah I have been known to take it a little too far when it comes to keeping fit!!! This regime is still very do-able even when kiting hard. I rock climb twice a week, swim once a week, run twice a week (my 4 cardio sessions), I try to hit heavy weights 3 times a week, I'm starting gymnastics once a week next wednesday, breakdancing once a week, fire dancing 2-3 times a week. This still leaves all the afternoons free for kitesurfing (albeit I am on semester break though ) When uni comes back I'll only be left with saturday and sunday arvos for kiting plus I will cut back on the firedancing and once of the rock climbing sessions.

The guys are right though, there is NOTHING better to get you fit for kitesurfing than getting out on the water! This is probably more of a winter regime gettin ready for an intense kitesurfing summer !!

"If you always do, what you've always done,you will always get, what you've always got. Change your'e routine."
I love it, wise words...


hi fliya
hi fliya
WA
128 posts
WA, 128 posts
21 Jan 2005 8:20am
Hi KiteHard,

you got my attention about the rock-climbing. I used to be a pretty keen climber, but have slowly given it up, as WA is flatter than a pancake, and the sea-breeze is so damn good that its just easier to go kiting. But I'm keen on meeting up for climbing (especially in winter when the winds gone), I'm keen on meeting like minded climber/kiters for the odd road trip.

I'm thinking a morning of sport climbing at Margaret River, then an afternoon kite-sesh in the surf, mmmmmmm..... the perfect day!

Drop me a quick reply to this post if you wanta meet up,

cheers

Lance

0407 421212
[email protected]
kitedude
kitedude
WA
10 posts
WA, 10 posts
21 Jan 2005 8:26am
I'm surprised no one mentioned swiss ball training...?

You can do so many exercises on these things with or without weights and it's great for balance, core strength, stretching and abs.
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
21 Jan 2005 9:44am
Absolutely guarantee - THIS WILL WORK
I knew when I first started kiting that I would need to build both strength & tone to come up to par with the new expectations I was about to be placing on my body. This is the exercise program I devised and followed to achieve the required result.
At the very start I would only do one short session on the water followed by a long vigourous muscle toning walk along the beach. Id say about 15 mins water time to about 20/25 mins of walking would be a reasonable ratio to begin with. As your body responds and you begin to feel the benefits you can slowly increase the water session to muscle toning ratio.
By slowly allowing your body to adapt to and develop the specific muscle groups required for kiting you will achieve balanced overall development through the muscle toning exercise. Eventually you will find you will be able to extend kite session time to any chosen length without the need to maintain the muscle toning sessions at all.
Since developing this program I have seen many others come along and follow my lead with similar success (though I did see a lot of them racing through the program far too quickly - personally I was very committed & disciplined myself to ensure maximum benefit would be achieved )
TRY IT JUST ONCE and its my bet that you wont be able to do it any other way


"He who enjoys most - WINS"
g-dog
g-dog
WA
145 posts
WA, 145 posts
21 Jan 2005 12:10pm
Thanks Puppet. Until I learn to "do it both ways" like Kim (and I sincerely hope she means kiting upwind as well as downwind) I'll be doing at least 20/25 mins walking for every 15 mins kiting, whether I like it or not.
robbo
robbo
WA
306 posts
WA, 306 posts
21 Jan 2005 12:28pm
Just on that rock climbing thing Lance:

You could spend weeks rock climbing in Kalbarri, and the scenery there is awesome - just in case u were wondering where up north was good for climing.

The gorges are spectacular too.




and now - back to the fat busting....
21 Jan 2005 12:40pm
hey Puppet, if you are the same bloke as Milehigh, sounds like you get plenty of kn exercise
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
21 Jan 2005 12:55pm
How about the 'Ab-Swing'? Get into your sexiest lycra gear, set it up in front of the telly and you can even eat snacks while you 'work-out'.
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
21 Jan 2005 12:57pm
quote:
Originally posted by g-dog
I sincerely hope she means kiting upwind as well as downwind

Not up & down g-dog
Nonikkers is talking about still mastering the skills of 'in & out'.
(she is very young you gotta realise)

And to the Bear [}:)]... "in my kn dreams"
Definately NOT Milehigh
(it was a memorable flight the night I joined his club though nudge nudge SNM)


"He who enjoys most - WINS"
dalestanton
dalestanton
WA
272 posts
WA, 272 posts
21 Jan 2005 4:40pm
yoga is really good, helps a lot.

Dale
Capt.Gumby
Capt.Gumby
QLD
354 posts
QLD, 354 posts
22 Jan 2005 7:41pm
High rep pyramid weight training on core muscle groups (builds endurance and strength) combined with cardio and sensible diet. Works bloody wonders, however the sensible diet is damn hard to stick to.

Cheers
terrah
terrah
QLD
77 posts
QLD, 77 posts
31 Jan 2005 11:12pm
xcuse the stupid question but what is high rep pyramid weight training?
re the diet thing - a nice way i have found to work out what the body actually needs as fuel (aka food) is the guidelines set out in the blood type diet - 4 different blood types, 4 different guidelines.. since realising that im a carnivore and the milk and bread thing was habit not because i actually liked them - my whole energy levels have changed. and i dont have to do lentils (even though i likED them).
proof: the BESTEST session at dolls ever today!, out on the water for four n bit hours and am not shattered, good sore muscle wise but not shattered.


eat so ya can kite more bettera

tt
professor
professor
QLD
277 posts
QLD, 277 posts
1 Feb 2005 12:02am
some mornings I have a pull some evenings as well keeps me buffed and polished
g-dog
g-dog
WA
145 posts
WA, 145 posts
1 Feb 2005 2:44am
quote:
the guidelines set out in the blood type diet - 4 different blood types, 4 different guidelines..

Can't say I've ever heard of this, but I wouldn't mind checking it out. Any more info terrah?
effisk
effisk
WA
37 posts
WA, 37 posts
1 Feb 2005 6:06am
quote:
Originally posted by terrah

xcuse the stupid question but what is high rep pyramid weight training?
high repetition pyramid wheight training.

You basically start with a light weight, say 100lbs and a high number of repetitions (say 15), then a heavier weight - 200lbs - and 10 repetitions, then 250 x5rep, etc.

__________________
What? Brisvegas' not in France?
GreenPat
GreenPat
QLD
4107 posts
QLD, 4107 posts
3 Feb 2005 10:37am
104kg lose the padding? Turn it up, dude - I'm ex rugby and ex 120kg. Now I'm 104kg(ish). Perfect weight to hold down a bigger kite, edge harder and boost higher than the lightweights (that is my intention anyway). I also find it handy to borrow small kites of small mates when the wind is nuking, but only desparado midgets want to borrow a big one when the wind is faltering.

Swimming is good, and weights for the kiting muscles in all sorts of different combinations. I jut made it up as I went along. Whichever muscle hurt most after a weekend of kiting I worked on a bit as I could bear it. Best fitness for kiting is kiting, you're just going to have to fast-track that purchase dude.

The Green Baron

I'll get you yet Von Richtofen, you fiend.
terrah
terrah
QLD
77 posts
QLD, 77 posts
5 Feb 2005 7:15pm

Can't say I've ever heard of this, but I wouldn't mind checking it out. Any more info terrah?


when you have an afternoon of no wind, check out: www.dadamo.com
Dr.James D'adamo's first discovered this concept over 30 years ago, as he was treating heart patients and severe diabetes patients. He observed that each blood type responded differently to his treatments and further noticed he could control the patients depending upon what they ate. It took Dr. D'adamo the last 15 years researching the connections among blood type, food, and disease.
Dr Peter J D'Adamo, a naturopathic physician and researcher, further clarified the links between diet, exercise, genetics, and enhancing imunity.
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rwgully/theories/diets.htm is an interesting site/page to get a good perspective on how the different nutritional theories fit together.
njoy

tt
Please Register, or first...
Topics Subscribe Reply