Electricity rates, meters and utilities

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FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
6 May 2012 9:34am
I should know this given my background... How did/do utility companies measure the electricity you use at each rate?

I don't have one of those classic meters, but the utilities charged at different rates depending on the time of day, how did they do it?... I understand how the latest Smart meters work.
Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
6 May 2012 9:48am
I understand that it is just a generalised "ratio" split, regarding peak & off peak electricity.

Also;
I'm no Electrical Expert, but I understand that the Power Stations run at a pretty constant rate, pushing power into the grid. I've never been involved with operations of these facilities, and I'm not sure if they alter the loads going into the grid to meet the 24hr cycles... However I have been told that The Electricity Distribution Companies have to continually balance their power... Early in the morning, the power is pushed out to the residential areas, as people get ready for the day, and during the day, a little extra power gets pushed over to Industry and City Offices, and then in the evening the city winds down, and some extra power gets directed back through the residential substations (substations in the residential areas)....

Large Sewer Mains;
These are actually "tidal"... Nearly everyone has a shower (and maybe a dump) between 5am and 9am, and all that water reaches the sewer plants kind of around mid-day.... In the mid-day peak tide!


FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
6 May 2012 10:07am
Thanks I know how generation, distribution and brokerage works... but I don't get how say Energy Australia knows I used 30kW off peak, 90 shoulder and 40 peak rate power when they don't even know how much I used without reading the meter.

Last time I checked the meter had a constant rate without any time piece.

My new digital one would facilitate the various rates.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15106 posts
WA, 15106 posts
6 May 2012 9:52am
FlySurfer said...

I should know this given my background... How did/do utility companies measure the electricity you use at each rate?

I don't have one of those classic meters, but the utilities charged at different rates depending on the time of day, how did they do it?... I understand how the latest Smart meters work.


What are you saying? That you have an older meter or a newer electronic meter?

http://www.savepower.nsw.gov.au/Portals/0/docs/news/Media07121202.pdf

If that doesn't explain it, tell us more about the scenario.
Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
6 May 2012 1:21pm
I have a property where we installed a new smart meter was installed as part of the buildings renovations. My own place has an old wheel meter. The main difference between the two I could work out after reading the smart meter literature from the electricity company is there is no way I'm going to swap a wheel meter for a smart meter.









FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
6 May 2012 2:22pm
FormulaNova said...
http://www.savepower.nsw.gov.au/Portals/0/docs/news/Media07121202.pdf


WTF!

With an analog electricity meter, how do utility companies know how much electricity a house hold uses at each rate.

Example:
Bob has an analog electricity meter (with no configurable time variables)
Bob only turns his electricity on at 22:01 and then turns it off at 07:59.
Bob only uses Energy Australia's off peak rate.
How does Energy Australia know what rate Bob is using?
FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
6 May 2012 2:25pm
Mobydisc said...

I have a property where we installed a new smart meter was installed as part of the buildings renovations. My own place has an old wheel meter. The main difference between the two I could work out after reading the smart meter literature from the electricity company is there is no way I'm going to swap a wheel meter for a smart meter.


Smart or digital? Smart meters call home... like Smart TV vs Digital.

You will always be better off with an analog meter as digital ones handle surges much better.
Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
6 May 2012 6:17pm
The reason why I think analogue meters are better for the consumer are they don't measure when the power is used, and then charge expensive rates when you want to use power, ie when you are at home after work cooking dinner and watching TV.

The power tariff recorded by smart meters varies greatly during the day. At my property Energy Australia advised via a letter the rate per kilowatt hour was about 10 cents off peak, something like 25 cents during the day, up to about 30 cents on the shoulder and then something like 45 cents a kilowatt hour at the peak.

Meanwhile at my home I pay around 20 cents a kilowatt hour all day every day.

They measure offpeak power, usually for hot water systems, with two wheel meters.

FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15106 posts
WA, 15106 posts
6 May 2012 7:21pm
FlySurfer said...

Mobydisc said...

I have a property where we installed a new smart meter was installed as part of the buildings renovations. My own place has an old wheel meter. The main difference between the two I could work out after reading the smart meter literature from the electricity company is there is no way I'm going to swap a wheel meter for a smart meter.


Smart or digital? Smart meters call home... like Smart TV vs Digital.

You will always be better off with an analog meter as digital ones handle surges much better.



Are you running for politics or are you just confusing in general?

What does :"You will always be better off with an analog meter as digital ones handle surges much better" mean? You are saying you will be better with one type as the other handles something better???

I still can't figure out what type of meter you have. You don't seem to have answered that question.

Traditional analog meters had a separate meter for off peak power and would only energise when sent control tones down the mains. They are also meant to be hard-wired to off-peak appliances, just to make sure you are only using off-peak power for things you are meant to (so that you only get the cheaper rate for things that are dedicated to only using off-peak power).



FlickySpinny
FlickySpinny
WA
657 posts
WA, 657 posts
6 May 2012 7:53pm
Let me know what kind of meter you have. If it's a digital, let me know the model numbers. If it's analogue, post as many details as you can.

I'll unravel it for you. I spend a LOT of time looking at different electricity meters.

If you want to reduce your power bill, check my profile for who I work for.
Buster fin
Buster fin
WA
2599 posts
WA, 2599 posts
6 May 2012 8:56pm
FlickySpinny said...

Let me know what kind of meter you have. If it's a digital, let me know the model numbers. If it's analogue, post as many details as you can.

I'll unravel it for you. I spend a LOT of time looking at different electricity meters.

If you want to reduce your power bill, check my profile for who I work for.


Do you do mates rates?
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
6 May 2012 9:44pm
FlySurfer said...
With an analog electricity meter, how do utility companies know how much electricity a house hold uses at each rate.

Example:
Bob has an analog electricity meter (with no configurable time variables)
Bob only turns his electricity on at 22:01 and then turns it off at 07:59.
Bob only uses Energy Australia's off peak rate.
How does Energy Australia know what rate Bob is using?

In this example Bob isn't using "off-peak/on-peak" tariffs. He's still on the old single rate for all his usage.

FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
6 May 2012 11:52pm
dinsdale said...

FlySurfer said...
With an analog electricity meter, how do utility companies know how much electricity a house hold uses at each rate.

Example:
Bob has an analog electricity meter (with no configurable time variables)
Bob only turns his electricity on at 22:01 and then turns it off at 07:59.
Bob only uses Energy Australia's off peak rate.
How does Energy Australia know what rate Bob is using?

In this example Bob isn't using "off-peak/on-peak" tariffs. He's still on the old single rate for all his usage.


So you're saying there's no way for EA to know? Are you sure?

FYI: I have bills from 18 months ago with the off/peak/shoulder rates and the meter was 100% analog, and then replaced with a digital one.
FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
6 May 2012 11:58pm
FormulaNova said...
What does :"You will always be better off with an analog meter as digital ones handle surges much better" mean? You are saying you will be better with one type as the other handles something better???


It means surges (when you start an heavy load eg: AC/Fan/washer/oven) cost you money and the digital meters cost you more bcos they're better at measuring them.

dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
6 May 2012 10:39pm
FlySurfer said...
So you're saying there's no way for EA to know? Are you sure?

FYI: I have bills from 18 months ago with the off/peak/shoulder rates and the meter was 100% analog, and then replaced with a digital one.

I was working from my WA experience where an analogue meter has a spinny wheelie thingy. It can't be done with one of them. Clearly NSW has different analogue meters. I'd be REAL circumspect about a utility company charging me for something for which I have absolutely no way of checking. That's akin to someone at my door saying, "Hello, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
ggh
ggh
VIC
190 posts
ggh ggh
VIC, 190 posts
7 May 2012 9:11am
Have you ever noticed your lights dimming at around 10pm for a split second , thats the hotwater tariff coming on , there is a generator at the substation that sends out ripply frequencey that is measured by the zelwiger relay which is the square thingy generally in the middle of where your meters are . So you have two meters one for t31 and one for Tariff 11 . The new meters have the cappabilty of measureing more than one circuit. So you could have your pool on one tariff your lights and power on another and your hotwater on the third , all wired as different circuits all being controlled by ripply frequence ( Execpt T11 its always on ) .Analog meters are extremely acurate. The best way to read them is from right to left with the lowest numer written down .

The Bob example Bob is a fool just because he is only using power during the hours of 10pm to 7 am doesnt mean he is using offpeak T31 , YOu have to have the circuit wired corectly via the meter and via the relay .
ggh
ggh
VIC
190 posts
ggh ggh
VIC, 190 posts
7 May 2012 9:24am
FlySurfer said...

FormulaNova said...
What does :"You will always be better off with an analog meter as digital ones handle surges much better" mean? You are saying you will be better with one type as the other handles something better???


It means surges (when you start an heavy load eg: AC/Fan/washer/oven) cost you money and the digital meters cost you more bcos they're better at measuring them.


NO Not at all the anolog meters are as good if not better . Remeber the degree of accuracy of the meters are not set by the meter manufactureing companies but the Energy Network Australia ENA who require a Australian Standard for the percent error +- . Regardless of wether its analog or electronic . The reason for the new digital metres is not the accuracy but there cost , there cheaper and you only need one to cover the hole tariff range . Surges have no effect on the meter as the meter is measuring currant.

ggh
ggh
VIC
190 posts
ggh ggh
VIC, 190 posts
7 May 2012 9:27am
Oh there was a range (batch) of analog metres out there , Waughbit and Franklin that where in accurate however in the favour of the customer. The EA's are bussy replaceing them . Though that was a while ago .
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
7 May 2012 9:42am
I went to a lighting seminar recently where one of the sparkys asked a question about 'smart-meters' and it was explained that with the new meters, very soon instead of the 'on-peak' & 'off-peak', the rates will vary per/hr (or less).

The speaker basically said that the supply companies have done a great deal of research into the best time to maximise their profits and will charge accordingly, all the while we (sheeple) will be told that their rate is <50% of the oppositions, but in reality that will be ie; between 2am-5am, then it will jump up (breakfast hours), then drop for when we're at work, then kick back up for the main use time (4pm-10pm) etc.
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
7 May 2012 9:48am
FlickySpinny said...

Let me know what kind of meter you have. If it's a digital, let me know the model numbers. If it's analogue, post as many details as you can.

I'll unravel it for you. I spend a LOT of time looking at different electricity meters.

If you want to reduce your power bill, check my profile for who I work for.


Sent you a PM.
Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
7 May 2012 9:57am
Sailhack said...

I went to a lighting seminar recently where one of the sparkys asked a question about 'smart-meters' and it was explained that with the new meters, very soon instead of the 'on-peak' & 'off-peak', the rates will vary per/hr (or less).

The speaker basically said that the supply companies have done a great deal of research into the best time to maximise their profits and will charge accordingly, all the while we (sheeple) will be told that their rate is <50% of the oppositions, but in reality that will be ie; between 2am-5am, then it will jump up (breakfast hours), then drop for when we're at work, then kick back up for the main use time (4pm-10pm) etc.



This is the same conclusion I've come to after comparing cost of electricity recorded by a smart meter compared to the analogue meter. Its all well and good to have cheap electricity when everyone is sleeping or at school or work. However the price starts jacking up around 3pm to 6pm and then hits a high between 6 and 10 pm when most people are at home and have the lights on.

The only way smart meters will work for consumers is to have smart battery devices that charge up on cheap electricity during the morning or day and then discharge that electricity at peak times, ie buying electricity at something like 10 cents a kw/h and selling it for 40 cents a kw/h through the smart meter.

Of course this is unlikely to happen as it will disrupt the planning (profits) of the electricity companies.


Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
7 May 2012 11:40am
Big Electricity Consumers (major industry) can buy electricity at about 7c/kWH... (24/7 - flat rate).

I understand that The Power Stations crank out electricity all day long at a fairly steady rate... Then the retailers devise ways to maximise profits!




From wiki
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load_power_plant

Economics

Power plants are designated baseload based on their low cost generation, efficiency and safety at rated output power levels. Baseload power plants do not change production to match power consumption demands since it is more economical to operate them at constant production levels. Use of higher cost combined-cycle plants or combustion turbines is thus minimized, and these plants can be cycled up and down to match more rapid fluctuations in consumption. Baseload generators, such as nuclear and coal, often have very high fixed costs, high plant load factor and very low marginal costs. On the other hand, peak load generators, such as natural gas, have low fixed costs, low plant load factor and high marginal costs.[7] Typically baseload plants are large and provide a majority of the power used by a grid. Thus, they are more effective when used continuously to cover the power baseload required by the grid.
[edit]

Base load power plant usage

Nuclear and coal power plants may take many hours, if not days, to achieve a steady state power output. On the other hand, they have low fuel costs.[9] Because they require a long period of time to heat up to operating temperature, these plants typically handle large amounts of baseload demand. Different plants and technologies may have differing capacities to increase or decrease output on demand: nuclear plants are generally run at close to peak output continuously (apart from maintenance, refueling and periodic refurbishment), while coal-fired plants may be cycled over the course of a day to meet demand.[citation needed] Plants with multiple generating units may be used as a group to improve the "fit" with demand, by operating each unit as close to peak efficiency as possible.

FlickySpinny
FlickySpinny
WA
657 posts
WA, 657 posts
7 May 2012 1:09pm
Buster fin said...

FlickySpinny said...


If you want to reduce your power bill, check my profile for who I work for.


Do you do mates rates?


PM with a voucher code sent!
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
7 May 2012 1:52pm
In WA, at the moment, we have 1 electricity retailer - I think. At least that's the case where I live, in a rural town. When I put solar panels up I needed a new power meter, so I elected to go onto smart power at the same time. For my wife and I it works a-treat.

This is a bit complicated, but I'll give it a go:

1. EVERY weekend of the year: 0700 - 2100 16c/unit 2100 - 0700 10c/unit

2. EVERY night of the year (weekends included): 2100 - 0700 10c/unit

3. Weekdays, October to March (inc): 0700 - 1100 and 1600 - 2100 40c/unit 1100 - 1600 20c/unit

4. Weekdays, April to September (inc) 0700 - 1100 and 1600 - 2100 20c/unit 1100 - 1600 40c/unit

ALL net units put back into the grid are paid at 47c/unit. I say it that way, because we use what we produce FIRST. eg If I'm producing 2 units and using 1 unit, 1 unit is going back into the grid, to be paid at 47c/unit. If I'm producing 1 unit but using 2 units, I'm drawing 1 unit from the grid, being charged in accordance with the rates above.

We have a digital meter which allows us to check for ourselves exactly how much we've used in each tariff point and how many units we've put back into the grid.

That doesn't sound anything at all like what you blokes in the East are describing, but it's most certainly what happening here, with one exception. Anyone doing the solar cell thingy now only gets 27c/unit.
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
7 May 2012 3:52pm
ggh said...

Have you ever noticed your lights dimming at around 10pm for a split second , thats the hotwater tariff coming on , there is a generator at the substation that sends out ripply frequencey that is measured by the zelwiger relay which is the square thingy generally in the middle of where your meters are . So you have two meters one for t31 and one for Tariff 11 .


Does that answer the original question? I've always wondered this myself.
Are there two meters? I'm too trusting.


FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
8 May 2012 12:06am
ggh said...
NO Not at all the anolog meters are as good if not better . Remeber the degree of accuracy of the meters are not set by the meter manufactureing companies but the Energy Network Australia ENA who require a Australian Standard for the percent error +- . Regardless of wether its analog or electronic . The reason for the new digital metres is not the accuracy but there cost , there cheaper and you only need one to cover the hole tariff range . Surges have no effect on the meter as the meter is measuring currant.



My understanding is the analog (elctromechanical) ones use a metal disc that's actuated by a magnetic field. The rotation count of the disc is what the mter reads.

When a surge happens (when the lights slightly dim when the AC comes on), the coils which produce the field are only slightly affected... where as the digital meters go straight up and level off.

Analog meters are easy to hack (magnets, obstruction of disc...), digital ones aren't.
The analog will speed up until levelling.
FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
8 May 2012 12:11am
ggh said...

Have you ever noticed your lights dimming at around 10pm for a split second , thats the hotwater tariff coming on , there is a generator at the substation that sends out ripply frequencey that is measured by the zelwiger relay which is the square thingy generally in the middle of where your meters are . So you have two meters one for t31 and one for Tariff 11 . The new meters have the cappabilty of measureing more than one circuit. So you could have your pool on one tariff your lights and power on another and your hotwater on the third , all wired as different circuits all being controlled by ripply frequence ( Execpt T11 its always on ) .Analog meters are extremely acurate. The best way to read them is from right to left with the lowest numer written down .

The Bob example Bob is a fool just because he is only using power during the hours of 10pm to 7 am doesnt mean he is using offpeak T31 , YOu have to have the circuit wired corectly via the meter and via the relay .


I'm not sure what meter Bob had, but there was only 1 and his bill had various rates.
ggh
ggh
VIC
190 posts
ggh ggh
VIC, 190 posts
8 May 2012 6:58pm
FlySurfer said...

ggh said...
NO Not at all the anolog meters are as good if not better . Remeber the degree of accuracy of the meters are not set by the meter manufactureing companies but the Energy Network Australia ENA who require a Australian Standard for the percent error +- . Regardless of wether its analog or electronic . The reason for the new digital metres is not the accuracy but there cost , there cheaper and you only need one to cover the hole tariff range . Surges have no effect on the meter as the meter is measuring currant.



My understanding is the analog (elctromechanical) ones use a metal disc that's actuated by a magnetic field. The rotation count of the disc is what the mter reads.

Correct there is a Potential coil ( voltage ) and a current coil the combination create an electromagnetic force on the disc turning it around.The new smart meters still have a pot coil and a current coil however instead of an analog reading you have a digital reading .

When a surge happens (when the lights slightly dim when the AC comes on), the coils which produce the field are only slightly affected... where as the digital meters go straight up and level off.

Incorrect you need to understand that you are measuring power not current drawn. Also the way it measures power is still using the two coils mentioned above.
Lets look at ohms law ( IN a AC circuit you need to also apply the power factor but for this explination i will ignore it for the time being )
Power = volts x current , so if you are measuring power its the combination of the volatage and current , when you draw alot of current from the staring of motors you affect the voltage , Votlage and current are inversly poportional .

Analog meters are easy to hack (magnets, obstruction of disc...), digital ones aren't.
The analog will speed up until levelling.

Incorrect though many people think they are easy to tamper with its is an urban myth. The disc does not need to gather speed or slow down it moves as you use power and stops instantaneously.

Now the original question ( thankyou evil pander ) was how do they know what different rates that they are charging .
For the off peak Hot water, pool pump, or farm irrigation there will be a seperate meter turned on via the Zel relay ( see my original comment ) What the retailers have now done in Vic and WA is break up the tariff 11 lights and power tariff into time peroids they then have different rates for . The smart meter has a time clock that is associated with the data collected and stored the same way your computor stores information , its then read out to give power usage at what times .

The smart meter is not called smart because its better at recording the power usage its samrt because it does many things like can be read exteranally . It does have a tolerance of 0% where as the old analog HAs 2% so they claim .depending on what side of the tolerance you where with your old meter you may save 20c a quater or loose 20c .
SandS
SandS
VIC
5904 posts
VIC, 5904 posts
8 May 2012 7:39pm
The charge out rate for electricity is simple , THEY CHARGE LIKE WOUNDED BULLS !
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