www.mail.com/int/news/europe/

Hmmmm. This is while the Vatican makes mega bucks, upon which if it paid tax, the Italian economy would probably be the healthiest in the Euro Zone.

The catholic church probably makes more money and has more assets than google, microsoft, and apple together, as such they should pay taxes like every other business.

Even though the Vatican is a 'sovereign city state' it was no always this way.

dinsdale said...

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, you surely realize that The Vatican is NOT part of Italy. It's a separate country.

Legally yes, it is a separate country but that was only made so by Mussolini during WW2 as a political expedient partly because the neutral Swiss provide the Vatican Guards.

It is not some traditional thing dating back hundreds of years.

The Vatican owns property in Italy outside of the Vatican upon which it makes huge revenue such as hotels in which as long as one room is kept available for a priest or nun, no tax is payable on the revenue the building makes.

That is just one example which represents the tip of the proverbial ice berg.

cisco said...

dinsdale said...

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, you surely realize that The Vatican is NOT part of Italy. It's a separate country.

Legally yes, it is a separate country but that was only made so by Mussolini during WW2 as a political expedient partly because the neutral Swiss provide the Vatican Guards.

It is not some traditional thing dating back hundreds of years.

That is incorrect Cisco. The Vatican City is the remnant of what was once a Catholic Church empire stretching across much of Italy and some other countries. It was called the Papal States. For a time the Papacy was one of the most powerful temporal kingdoms in Europe. Popes raised armies, fought wars, raised taxes and so forth. The reason why the Pope and the institutions he heads do not pay tax is similar to why royalty in other countries don't pay tax either.

I'm not sure what the deal was between Mussolini and the Pope.

I can understand where the Pope is coming from however I disagree. Many businesses depend upon people who have money to spend money. If everyone went on an austerity drive then many businesses would fail leading to more financial misery.

The finanical issues facing Europe in general have been caused by some governments spending more than they collect, people borrowing more than they can pay off, many banks loaning more than they can recover and governments bailing out the banks who are effectively bankrupt, turning them into zombie banks.

The whole system is corrupt and needs reform. For example it was the case, possibly not anymore, that the Greek equivalent of the RTA had not issued a new heavy vehicle licence since about 1985. What did this mean? Effectively those who held a licence could take it easy and lease their licence to someone from Turkey or Iraq to drive the truck.

This sort of cronyism and protectionism are rife across many countries of Europe. People expect they will be protected by the state to earn a guaranteed income even if they are not working. The system is corrupt and needs renewal.

Whats happening in Greece now is the beginning of the renewal. Bankruptcy, default and a new beginning is the only way forward. The creditors will hate it and go broke but thats their problem. If Greece has anything to sell after their default, someone will buy it.

I know nothing of the history of the Vatican, however a guy I worked with (a devout Christian) visited there.
He told me while he was there he gave some money to a beggar, as he was walking away, a priest approached the beggar and TOOK some money from the beggar. My friend went back and asked the priest what was going on. The priest explained that the beggar had to pay a fee for the privilege of begging in the Vatican!

Perhaps that is what the pope means about sharing rescources?
(copy and paste from web page) "promoting the church's prescription for coping with the economic crisis: share resources and pare lifestyles down to the essentials."


(After this incident, my friend never donated to the church ever again, he only donated directly to those in need)

Skid said...

I know nothing of the history of the Vatican, however a guy I worked with (a devout Christian) visited there.
He told me while he was there he gave some money to a beggar, as he was walking away, a priest approached the beggar and TOOK some money from the beggar. My friend went back and asked the priest what was going on. The priest explained that the beggar had to pay a fee for the privilege of begging in the Vatican!

Perhaps that is what the pope means about sharing rescources?
(copy and paste from web page) "promoting the church's prescription for coping with the economic crisis: share resources and pare lifestyles down to the essentials."


(After this incident, my friend never donated to the church ever again, he only donated directly to those in need)

That priest should read his Bible a bit closely, especially the bit where Jesus gets the sh!ts about the money changers doing business in the temple. That is so hypocritical.

Notice how this issue keeps coming back every six months when the debt is due to be paid back. If the greeks cann't pay it back in time why don't they just get a longer term loan.

And the threats about holding back the loans if they don't carry through with the austerity measures. This is rubbish as the greeks already have received almost all of the money and spent it. It really is about arguing over the name as the money will not be paid back, the name will be either default or forgiveness of debt. It won't be called a default because the party for the bankers will end. The debt will be forgiven, more loans continue and in 10 or 20 years the cycle start again.

Trouble is it is our super paying for it.

Little Jon said...

Notice how this issue keeps coming back every six months when the debt is due to be paid back. If the greeks cann't pay it back in time why don't they just get a longer term loan.

And the threats about holding back the loans if they don't carry through with the austerity measures. This is rubbish as the greeks already have received almost all of the money and spent it. It really is about arguing over the name as the money will not be paid back, the name will be either default or forgiveness of debt. It won't be called a default because the party for the bankers will end. The debt will be forgiven, more loans continue and in 10 or 20 years the cycle start again.

Trouble is it is our super paying for it.

I don't really understand where the money for the previous bailouts for the Greek government went. Last night on the 7.30 report there was a story about it. From what was reported unemployed Greeks don't receive unemployment benefits. Pensioners have had their pensions reduced dramatically. The same with public servants, their pay has been slashed. I guess the money is used to service their debt. So the Greeks borrow more money to service their existing debt. Meanwhile austerity is driving the economy into the ground and reducing taxation revenue.

Talk about digging your own grave.


Ken Henry was on saying he didn't think the Euro had a future as a monetary union won't work with a fiscal union.

Greece needs to default. Defaulting will wipe the deck clean and allow whatever industry and enterprises there are in Greece to start again paying their costs in the local currency, instead of what is increasingly becoming a foreign currency, the Euro.

The default is coming. Democracy is working. The Greek people don't want the austerity but want the European bailout money. The Germans say you can't have the money without the austerity. It seems likely the German government wants Greece to default and will push the Greeks to default as it will cost less in the long run than giving the Greek government the money in return for austerity and giving Greek government debt a haircut.

Go Back to the drachma at 1 euro = 1 drachma and reevalue it at 1 drachma is 1000 euro Fixed!!!

Ask the french how to do it they were good at it during the 60'ies when they established the new Franc as 1 new franc was valued at 100 old franc!

Then declare Greece a banana republic!