It saddens me to hear so many people blithly echo the shrill cry of the doomsayers with their chant of "the world is overpopulated"
Instead of blindly accepting what they say, lets look at some facts and then make up our minds.
Fact one. If you have a child today it will grow up in one of the safest most prosperous times known to man.
Even in my parents time it was unusual for a man to reach a hundred years of age. It is common now
No major wars, no black plague, no major tyrant (ie Stalin, Hitler) Health systems even in developing countries are sustantially ahead of what they were even 30 years ago.
Ok so more people surviving, so more overpopulation, so that must be bad right?
Well no, not really.
Fact two. As long as the government is not too corrupt, and the infrastructure of a country is sound, then THE MORE PEOPLE YOU HAVE THE HIGHER THE STANDARD OF LIVING,
Examples?
New York city
Japan
London
The population of China is growing as we sit here. Are they turning into an impoverished nation. No way. They are turning into a world power.
Watch India. It is right behind. Millions of people and becoming more prosperous by the day.
Ok
Why do people starve then.
Basically because of people like Magabe who are so corrupt they starve their own
country.
History is littered with them.
Stalin
Pol pot etc
I repeat. As long as the Government is not too corrupt and the infrastructure is sound, The more people you have the higher the standard of living.
Australia's population has doubled since 1950
The standard of living is luxurious compared to then.
So will we run out of food?
The worlds population has doubled once again since 1950
Our food production has quadrupled since 1950.
Less people starve per head of population now than then
The oceans will be fished dry?
As we sit here fish farming is blossoming around the world. Sure they have had problems, but they will overcome them because that is how man is.
When the Israel's took over Israel, vast tracts of land were unused by the previous inhabitants. It was just sandhills
The Jews bulldozed 20 metres and found arable land.
They now grow orange trees on it.
One last fact
How big actually is the worlds population?
I've travelled across Australia many times by plane.
For about 5 minutes leaving Perth you are over a heavily populated area and as you approach the Gold Coast again for 5 minutes you are over a populated area, the other 3 hours plus there is nothing. Rolling plains hills desert.etc
Useless land? I doubt it, remember the Jews.
Anyway fact number 3
If we allowed the worlds population to grow out to 10 billion, (it is about 6.7 billion at the moment) we could still place the whole of the worlds population inside the largest state in Canada with a population density of about the same as New York City at the moment. New York has parks ,waterfalls, wildlands, and a prosperous population.
Why do I go to all the effort to type this?
Because IM SICK OF THE DAMN NEGATIVITY peddled by so many sources to our young people.
We live in one of the most exciting and enlightened periods of mans history.
Grab it and go for it.
You can stills ave the whales and the rare spotted pygmy deer etc and there are men at this moment working toward this.
In most developed countries once women become educated the birthrate levels off. 2 children per mother is common. This wiil almost certainly happen in China and India in time.
Overpopulation is not an issue.

It is bad for the world though. If more people means a higher standard of living. That means more appliances/cars/electricity needed/other stuff that needs power. This power comes from burning fossil fuels. Which is bad.

And remember what happened last time we tried bulldozing everything here. Salinity problem is still around. And oranges won't be growing in that. And maybe some people like the hills, and dessert, and forest and bushland just the way it is. Not screwed up covered in fruit trees.

Richie you now have 4c.

you dont have to be an ignorant hypocrite to survive in modern society...But it helps....

Hausey said...

It saddens me elbeau, that people still have such an ignorant attitude!

SUSTAINABILITY - isn't 10 Billion humans on the planet living the life that we do. That scenario and CO2 levels in the atmosphere will be higher than the worse case scenario .... the planet warmer by about 6 degrees, sea levels rising by up to 60m with no polar ice.... or something like that.

Pull your head out of the sand elbeau and get informed - go see "An inconvenient truth" the Al Gore doco.... (while you see "Sharkwater)....

It aint about being negative - it's about making positive choices. Walk, ride, drive a hybrid, grow your own fruit and vegies, put energy back into the grid with solar panels on your roof, choose a more sustainable career, choose not to have more than a kid or maybe 2 (or none).....

Promise not to write any more tripe, elbeau until you have at least seen the 2 docos!

Why do you assume that I havn't seen them?
Look I agree. "walk ,ride, drive a hybrid, grow your own fruit and vege's, put energy back in to the grid". All good sound ïdeas.

Then we can develop wormhole technology and populate and exploit other worlds in far out solar systems, man.

elbeau said...

There are many good things happening in the world.

Exactly. The wind is blowing in Perth, and after work I am going kiting, then I'm going to drink a beer.

elbeau said...

It saddens me to hear so many people blithly echo the shrill cry of the doomsayers with their chant of "the world is overpopulated"
Instead of blindly accepting what they say, lets look at some facts and then make up our minds.

No offence, but I think I'll listen to real scientists who have dedicated their careers to these issues rather than some misguided armchair scientist on the internet.

I think you should do some more research.

you wont be around, in 450 years but around then at current world growth rates there will be one human to every square meter of dry land mass. so when and what number is the cut off? approx every 30 years world population doubles


oil at its current rate of consumption is predicted to be used up withing 20 years time going off todays known reserves. when fields where first discovered it took 1 barrel of oil to make 100, today that ratio has decreased alot!

other fuels to make similar energy likes of oilsands use one barrel of oil to make 3 barrels, or another example, ethonol from corn it takes one barrel of oil to make 1.5 barrels of oil , not exactly fuel for the future.

resources likes of copper nickel are mined in low grades, meaning higher energy needs to extract and process them. compared to decades ago when high grade mines had its resources only meters deep, in fact it wasn't uncommon to find copper nuggets on the soil as an indication of mineralization. we dg it up, use it then scatter the remains into small underground locations called land fills/dumps

its financially impossible due to its oil base and psychically impossible due to the constraints of fertilizer production for everyone in the world to have an abundance of food, i say this to disregard arguments that its governments of poor agricultural practices but even if that was only the case and all things being equal the input cost of fertilizer would negate all those factors. majority of fertilizer comes from gass/oil products


energy is the thing that has made us have a high standard of living, and oil is the main source of energy, energy is like having little slaves at work, how much energy does 5 liters of oil have? and whats its true value?

well drive a car with 5 litres of fuel in it , then onces it runs out push it back to the starting place and work out the time it took to push it all the way back, then times it by the average wage, it probably cost more like 1000 dollars instead of 5 dollars.

The reason so much of Australia is empty , young Elbow is that clever people TRIED to do wonderful things to it, and the country couldnt take it. Drive through ANY wheatbelt, look down stream in ANY irrigation area, Have a close look in ANY forest ,We are destroying Australia.. I dont believe we have even begun to see what we are doing, WE dont want too know, We are just too clever for that.
It scares me when people point too Isreal and say , how wonderful. the down stream pollution and human misery that thier agriculture has caused should be the great example of what not to do.
my 4 cents

elbeau said...

It saddens me to hear so many people blithly echo the shrill cry of the doomsayers with their chant of "the world is overpopulated"
Instead of blindly accepting what they say, lets look at some facts and then make up our minds.
Fact one. If you have a child today it will grow up in one of the safest most prosperous times known to man.
Even in my parents time it was unusual for a man to reach a hundred years of age. It is common now
No major wars, no black plague, no major tyrant (ie Stalin, Hitler) Health systems even in developing countries are sustantially ahead of what they were even 30 years ago.
Ok so more people surviving, so more overpopulation, so that must be bad right?
Well no, not really.
Fact two. As long as the government is not too corrupt, and the infrastructure of a country is sound, then THE MORE PEOPLE YOU HAVE THE HIGHER THE STANDARD OF LIVING,
Examples?
New York city
Japan
London
The population of China is growing as we sit here. Are they turning into an impoverished nation. No way. They are turning into a world power.
Watch India. It is right behind. Millions of people and becoming more prosperous by the day.
Ok
Why do people starve then.
Basically because of people like Magabe who are so corrupt they starve their own
country.
History is littered with them.
Stalin
Pol pot etc
I repeat. As long as the Government is not too corrupt and the infrastructure is sound, The more people you have the higher the standard of living.
Australia's population has doubled since 1950
The standard of living is luxurious compared to then.
So will we run out of food?
The worlds population has doubled once again since 1950
Our food production has quadrupled since 1950.
Less people starve per head of population now than then
The oceans will be fished dry?
As we sit here fish farming is blossoming around the world. Sure they have had problems, but they will overcome them because that is how man is.
When the Israel's took over Israel, vast tracts of land were unused by the previous inhabitants. It was just sandhills
The Jews bulldozed 20 metres and found arable land.
They now grow orange trees on it.
One last fact
How big actually is the worlds population?
I've travelled across Australia many times by plane.
For about 5 minutes leaving Perth you are over a heavily populated area and as you approach the Gold Coast again for 5 minutes you are over a populated area, the other 3 hours plus there is nothing. Rolling plains hills desert.etc
Useless land? I doubt it, remember the Jews.
Anyway fact number 3
If we allowed the worlds population to grow out to 10 billion, (it is about 6.7 billion at the moment) we could still place the whole of the worlds population inside the largest state in Canada with a population density of about the same as New York City at the moment. New York has parks ,waterfalls, wildlands, and a prosperous population.
Why do I go to all the effort to type this?
Because IM SICK OF THE DAMN NEGATIVITY peddled by so many sources to our young people.
We live in one of the most exciting and enlightened periods of mans history.
Grab it and go for it.
You can stills ave the whales and the rare spotted pygmy deer etc and there are men at this moment working toward this.
In most developed countries once women become educated the birthrate levels off. 2 children per mother is common. This wiil almost certainly happen in China and India in time.
Overpopulation is not an issue.

Go look up the definition of what a FACT is.

You quote cities such as New York as having a high standard of living as a result of having a large population? I don't think you understand that cities exist mainly because it is more EFFICIENT to have a geographically centralized economy, in 'desirable' area (ie near water for ports etc etc.), you are relating this centralization to one of its consequences - high population densities.

Who wants to live to 100? 80? anyway?

Standard of living is NOT equivalent to GDP referring to how you observe that China is becoming a 'world power'. These stats come from 2006 but remain largely unchanged - in China the richest 20% receive 80% national income... think about it India is largely the same, how is that exemplifying increased living standards in any way?

As much as you'd like to believe it there ARE infinite world resources there are not - I'm not so good with my 'Greenie facts' concerning the amazon, barrier reef etc; but regardless the damage humans are doing to the planet's amenity value is enormous.

Just because the Jews bulldozed a sand hill doesn't mean every sand hill will yield fertile land 20m below. God go much below in central Australia and you'll have salted earth - why? over irrigation, why? food, to feed who? more people? So if the population increases and as does arable land then what?

The point is that an increasing population and standard of living is a NECESSARILY conflicting with environmental preservation, as people consume and consumption requires resources - and the world at the moment is definitely heading in a direction that would see the current living standards unsustainable into the future.

Ever been to Bangkok? Breathed the awesome smoggy air?

Why do we need 4 kids anyway? God, I'd be happy with 1 or 2.

Just based on the FACT that on average the number of people who STARVE TO DEATH each year is around 5 million I don't see how people still want to populate - when the race itself can let this happen - and before anyone notes that this is less than 0.01% of the population per year I might add that it is only the tip of the iceberg that is poverty. Its like sending more children to a daycare that lets children drown in it's swimming pool, noting that a large amount of overpopulation is in these poorer countries - I don't think we (Australia) even have a birth rate above 1 (although it is very near).

Prosperous as the western world may seem - the rest are swept under the rug. How many times have we heard about September 11th? Yes it was tragic, but compare it to the 30,000 dying per DAY of starvation (roughly 10 times the casualties from September 11th), how often do we hear about THAT? it shows you a bigger picture - what do we really care about.

See how everyone freaks out if GDP doesn't grow by at LEAST 2% per annum; our standard of living has always to increase - when will we be satisfied? Heaven forbid we need to consume less than the previous year .

Regarding poverty and overpopulation. We hear what we want to - and it is all too easy to put up the whole 'oh it was the corruption' straw-man and forget about it even though yes corruption has its part to play.

My last point is just a personal opinion - people in the 'westernized' world in general piss me off, with their indifference to one another, petty s***fights, over indulged, over pampered,selfish, superficial lifestyles why the hell should I want more of them? Lets face it - in general it'd just be too much of a bad thing, its all well and good to say lets have more people but if we can't manage to share or sustain the world in which we live, both with respect to the human race and the environment - then surely it becomes a value judgment between quantity and quality of life as at some point they are mutually exclusive.

That new movie out "The Day the earth stood still" has a message in relation to this subject.
Fact: It can't be negleted that we are infact slowly but surely destorying this planet, and yes it seems to be motivated primarily by profits.

It makes sense that the motive for overproduction and undervaluation of resources is in the end be to make a profit - producers and consumers of goods do not incorporate the 'real' cost to society of their production/consumption of whatever it may be - in economics 'externalities'.

This would relate to overpopulation in that the true cost of supporting one person may in fact be under-stated and as such we are experiencing uncompensated damage to the planet. Hypothetically if the cost were the 'true cost' ie: the monetary cost equaled the real cost we'd definitely have a lot less people around - just because we couldn't afford to sustain so many people.

We can sustain the population of the world as it is.
Your government recently spent millions looking for a sunken ship off the West Australia coast. Why? To give "closure to the families of the deceased"
We are spending money for the dead that should be spent on the living. This is replicated time and time again through the developed world.
Massive amounts spent on wasteful pursuits
Our rubbish tips along with the USA, Canada, Europe etc are filled with rotting food .
I recently spent time in Vietnam talking to a women that existed on $1.50 a day. With this she fed her mother and her daughter.
If Australians gave up half a can of coke a day it would be enough to feed most of the hungry world. That is Australia alone.
Two months ago I was in East Timor where we dined on one chicken with a plate of rice between 12 people.
On return to Aussie I bought a KFC ultimate pack. Struggling to eat it I realised that with a plate of rice it would feed at least 12 people.
Greed and self interest are the stumbling blocks of prosperity for all.
Australians are not innocent of this and to blame overpopulation is a copout.

elbeau said...

We can sustain the population of the world as it is.
Your government recently spent millions looking for a sunken ship off the West Australia coast. Why? To give "closure to the families of the deceased"
We are spending money for the dead that should be spent on the living. This is replicated time and time again through the developed world.
Massive amounts spent on wasteful pursuits
Our rubbish tips along with the USA, Canada, Europe etc are filled with rotting food .
I recently spent time in Vietnam talking to a women that existed on $1.50 a day. With this she fed her mother and her daughter.
If Australians gave up half a can of coke a day it would be enough to feed most of the hungry world. That is Australia alone.
Two months ago I was in East Timor where we dined on one chicken with a plate of rice between 12 people.
On return to Aussie I bought a KFC ultimate pack. Struggling to eat it I realised that with a plate of rice it would feed at least 12 people.
Greed and self interest are the stumbling blocks of prosperity for all.
Australians are not innocent of this and to blame overpopulation is a copout.

Mmmmmmmmm, rice! Good with chicken'n'cashews, or beef'n'blackbean.....Mmmmmmmmmmmm!


Carry on.......

Mobydisc said...

Overpopulation is a cop out that is true. Recently I read in the paper an article about greenhouse emissions and water consumption in Sydney suburbs. Residents of suburbs with the highest per capita incomes produced the most emissions and consumed the most water.

We face a dilemma when it comes to population and consumption. The general trend tends to be as income and consumption increases, the number of children decrease. Probably the most important factor in reduced numbers of offspring is improved education for females.

Not many people want to live a primitive subsistence life. People from all over the world desire the modern conveniences we take for granted such as a flushing toilet, hot water along with a fridge full of food and beer. Not many people want to live in a cardboard box in a shanty town if they can help it.

So what is to be done? Do we allow the billions in India, Asia, South America and Africa achieve a similar standard of living to people in Australia? In the process we would consume an incredible amount of resources, most of which are either non renewable or would become increasing scarce. Or do we say "no, you can't live the life we live because it will ruin life for all of us".

Clearly population is part of the issue. As population numbers increase they consume more resources in the environment. Through technology and society we have created a global system of resource extraction so much of the world's resources are available to us. Thus we can increase our population. What will happen when all of the iron ore and petroleum gas from WA is extracted? What will happen when the oil wells of Saudi and Iraq run dry?

Of course there will be resource substitution. Perhaps we will develop new technology to create hydrocarbons cheaply from renewable sources. Perhaps one of those billions in India or Africa will be a genius who will work out ways to solve many of the problems facing us. So many variables are involved here there is no straight forward answer of yes or no.

Thank you Moby. It is refreshing to get a balanced and rational perspective

Distorted perspective becomes surreal

and if allowed to become collective consciousness

becomes dangerous