Whoops, I don't think it should have done that

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elmo
elmo
WA
8895 posts
WA, 8895 posts
18 May 2010 10:04am
A bit of poor design, shame because it's technology which we need.

www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
18 May 2010 10:24am
It will make a nice reef
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
18 May 2010 12:26pm
Yep Elmo, a crying shame.

Back in the late 80's and a early 90's I worked in Wave Energy Research in Europe. The number of good ideas that were let down by poor execution were innumerable. A company called ART (not to be confused with the then sailmaker) built a wave energy device (OSPREY device) that was to be deployed in the north sea. It sank under tow to location. The media had a field day with it, and the immediate result was that funding for alternative energy research dried up overnight.
www.independent.co.uk/news/wave-power-is-too-much-for-generator-1598326.html

I am asked regularly what the downsides of wave energy are, and my answer has remained constant over the last 20 years - "The bulk of energy is available offshore, any device designed to operate in that environment needs to be able to stay there. Current anchoring technology cannot guarantee that. As soon as the first winter storm displaces the device and it washes onto the nearest beach it is no longer "environmentally friendly""

JB
GypsyDrifter
GypsyDrifter
WA
2371 posts
WA, 2371 posts
18 May 2010 10:26am
So it was Launched in March and now it is off it's pylons.
Poor design....? Ya think
maxm
maxm
NSW
864 posts
NSW, 864 posts
18 May 2010 12:57pm
JayBee said...

... "The bulk of energy is available offshore, any device designed to operate in that environment needs to be able to stay there. ...


Why is that? Oil rigs are anchored (somehow), there's lots of them and it's pretty rare for one to move. Of course, they're probably bigger but still the anchoring technology should be similar shouldn't it?
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
18 May 2010 11:30am
maxm said...

JayBee said...

... "The bulk of energy is available offshore, any device designed to operate in that environment needs to be able to stay there. ...


Why is that? Oil rigs are anchored (somehow), there's lots of them and it's pretty rare for one to move. Of course, they're probably bigger but still the anchoring technology should be similar shouldn't it?


Oil rigs are designed so that there is minimal structure actually in the water. The bulk of the structure is so high off the water that even the biggest storms will only impact on the relatively thin legs. This makes them able to withstand all normal sea conditions.
Wave power structures have most of their bulk actually in the water. Thus the entire structure is subject to whatever sea conditions come that way.
In the event of a storm, the forces on large non streamline structures in the ocean become irrsistible.
Fluid forces in turbulence vary with the cube of the fluid velocity.
That is, a doubling of the fluid speed past a structure gives a 8 times increase in force.
4 times the speed makes for a 64 times increase in force.
You can see that the equation becomes ultimately destructive.

In any case, in all probability there is no future in wave power of any sort mostly due to the huge maintenance cost of any structure in salt water.
Combine this with the inadvisability of mixing salt water with electricity, the whole idea is fatally flawed.
Spend the money on nuclear research.
It's the only viable alternative to clean unlimited power generation for the long term.
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
18 May 2010 3:02pm
Pweedas is correct.
Oil Rigs are designed not to sit in the area of most energy, but rather the "relatively" thin legs suspend the structure above the high energy danger zone.

A wave device must live in the high energy danger zone, and generally have multiple moving parts, complex hydraulics etc. All of which are prone to breaking down - and it will never be a calm sunny day when they do fail.

Environmental lobbyists want the structures to be offshore so that they are not a blight on the landscape (as windmills are), but with that comes energy loss due to transmission issues, and the ever present anchoring issue. Even some ships with engines for propulsion cannot maintain station during big storms.

The device I did most work on is the Oscillating Water Column (OWC) and we built one in the Azores. OWC's operate on the shoreline, and are highly efficient - their issue is rather that the operate in an area with a fraction of energy available compared to that of open water.

I am not a pessimistic as Pweedas, and do believe there is a future for wave energy in some circumstances - but only in some circumstances. It is a difficult exercise, as well as costly, but not impossible.
As "politically incorrect" as his statement is regarding nukes, it is true. There is no green energy source that can provide baseline electricity requirements. The opportunity for Hydro has been saturated. The only alternative I can see at present is geothermal energy - and that may well be the saviour of green energy industry.
We will see over the next 10 years I suppose.

JB
patsken
patsken
WA
717 posts
WA, 717 posts
18 May 2010 3:47pm
There is a company that are developing and up-scaling a wave power generator set-up off Fremantle that seem to be having early stage success.
After talking with one of the engineers involved in the project it sounds as though they may well be on the right track in that their "pumps" are on the sea bed and rely on the wave power (which is greatest up to about 3 ?? metres below the surface) to move a pump vertically up and down to then drive a generator either nearby or in a remote area.
At the moment they are in relatively sheltered water where the swell rarely gets above a couple of metres and their next plant will be in deeper water on the lee side of Garden Island off Fremantle and they are similarly expecting good results.
It's all quite interesting and as part of the trials obviously reliability and longevity are important so I think the trials will be going on for quite a few years yet although the number of actual moving parts in the plant don't seem to be too great so maybe this one may have an advantage .....

Good luck to them I say !!
Richiefish
Richiefish
QLD
5612 posts
QLD, 5612 posts
18 May 2010 6:06pm
wasnt the oil rig thing that has caused the catastrophie in Florida one of the floating ,unanchored type? Kept in position by motors connected to GPS ???
patsken
patsken
WA
717 posts
WA, 717 posts
18 May 2010 4:23pm
Possibly but fire was the down-fall of that one not getting pushed around by wind or waves........

Blow Out Preventers with holes in them are as useful as condoms with more than one prick in them...
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
18 May 2010 4:56pm
Richiefish said...

wasnt the oil rig thing that has caused the catastrophie in Florida one of the floating ,unanchored type? Kept in position by motors connected to GPS ???



Yes thats right Rich.
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
18 May 2010 7:28pm
patsken said...

Possibly but fire was the down-fall of that one not getting pushed around by wind or waves........

Blow Out Preventers with holes in them are as useful as condoms with more than one prick in them...


A reasonably foreseeable problem one would have thought. Is it any wonder that industry isn't trusted.

As for nuclear I understand there is only a very limited world supply of uranium, about 25 years worth, so nuclear fission doesn't have much of a future. Fusion on the other hand .... oooh, any day now :)



mathew
mathew
QLD
2174 posts
QLD, 2174 posts
18 May 2010 11:35pm
There are so many technical inaccuracies with some parts of this discussion...

- Oils rigs use electricity for lots of stuff... boats do too... so saltwater + electricity isn't a problem.

- floating drilling platforms already stay put... we have the technology (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_storage_and_offloading_unit)

- underwater wave generators exist, without the problems of surface generators (www.seageneration.co.uk/project-background.asp)

- there is a 1000 years of uranium (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium#Resources_and_reserves)


We dont have them because it is cheaper to use oil / coal.
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
19 May 2010 11:23am
Thanks for the input Mathew, but I am afraid it is a little misguided.

Noone has said that Oil Rigs or boats do not use electricity!!! That seems to be a comment of your own making. It doesnt detract from the fact that electrics and salt water are mortal enemies. The part of an oil rig that generates and utilises electricity are all well clear of the ocean. Similarly boats inevitibly have electrical issues, I have seen many yachts require rewiring because of corrrosion.

Floating production platforms have their own motive power, and can and do disconnect during heavy storms. If they disconnect they use their own motive power to keep station. There are many cases where even after disconnection the storage platform has been damaged by the storm requiring it to return to a dockyard for maintenence. They do not stay put.

And Yes - Underwater wave generators exist. The device you referenced is not a wave device at all (and the SEAGEN device will never pay for itself - it is expected to make 20 pounds an hour profit!!!!)
All underwater devices have the same issues as surface generators, and they have the added complication that the wave action DECREASES with depth - so they are located in parts of the wave field with diminished potential. Yes - they have an easier time of it, but they generate less energy too. Seabed devices are the equivalent of saying that if coal burning power stations burn less coal they will have less emissions. There is always a payback.

I am as enthusiastic as anyone about green energy, but wave energy like solar or wind has its limitations, many of which are engineering issues. With time and technology advances they may be overcome to the point that ocean energy becomes commercially viable.

JB
Ben 555
Ben 555
NSW
456 posts
NSW, 456 posts
19 May 2010 4:26pm
hey JB and others- What are the options for transmission of power from deap ocean generators?

The only one I can think may work is oil encased HV conducters running on the sea floor, but then their are attendant issues with that as well

JB said
As "politically incorrect" as his statement is regarding nukes, it is true. There is no green energy source that can provide baseline electricity requirements

Next SR meeting can you repeat this sentence to my bride - I can say it a million times to her...i just need someone else to say it for it to have effect - i dont even mind if you put in a qualifier "at the present time...."
mathew
mathew
QLD
2174 posts
QLD, 2174 posts
19 May 2010 10:46pm
JayBee said...
Noone has said that Oil Rigs or boats do not use electricity!!! That seems to be a comment of your own making.


you did read pweedas comment did you?


It doesnt detract from the fact that electrics and salt water are mortal enemies. The part of an oil rig that generates and utilises electricity are all well clear of the ocean. Similarly boats inevitibly have electrical issues, I have seen many yachts require rewiring because of corrrosion.


Ben 555 and yourself have probably never heard of Basslink...? (www.basslink.com.au/)


Floating production platforms have their own motive power, and can and do disconnect during heavy storms. If they disconnect they use their own motive power to keep station. There are many cases where even after disconnection the storage platform has been damaged by the storm requiring it to return to a dockyard for maintenence. They do not stay put.


yes they do.
ship: www.rigjobs.co.uk/oil/drillship.shtml
semi-submersible: www.rigjobs.co.uk/oil/oilrigs.shtml


And Yes - Underwater wave generators exist. The device you referenced is not a wave device at all (and the SEAGEN device will never pay for itself - it is expected to make 20 pounds an hour profit!!!!)


The fact that research was profitable at all, and that it is still running, should clearly show that mass-production solves most of the cost-related engineering issues.


All underwater devices have the same issues as surface generators, and they have the added complication that the wave action DECREASES with depth - so they are located in parts of the wave field with diminished potential. Yes - they have an easier time of it, but they generate less energy too. Seabed devices are the equivalent of saying that if coal burning power stations burn less coal they will have less emissions. There is always a payback.


who cares if they produce less energy... the engineering is easier and within the limits of current technology (somewhat obviously, surface generators arn't). Underwater generators use techniques that dont suffer anywhere near as much from super storms (I'm done finding external references... your turn).

If you want more energy just have a few more of them.
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
19 May 2010 10:59pm
Didn't Ziggy Switkowski in his energy report for the previous government say that there was only a 25 year future for nuclear fission power production, or did I just dream it?
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
20 May 2010 1:49pm
"you did read pweedas comment did you?" - Apologies if I overlooked something, but I cannot see where Pweedas says that Offshore platforms do not use electricity!

I also fail to see the relevance of Basslink. It is a cable lying on the bottom of the ocean and not subjected to wave action. Basslink is nothing special, there have been cables dropped all over the oceans for many many years - first one commissioned in 1902 if I remember correctly.

Posting links to pictures of floating oil production platforms does not support your statement that they stay put. Having actually spent a little time on one, I can say categorically that they can and do disconnect from risers when the weather forecast gets bad enough. In fact it is something that is practiced and drilled regularly (if you pardon the pun).
news.alibaba.com/article/detail/energy/100101492-1-philippines%2527-galoc-oil-output-resumes.html
www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/mtaofsa2003528/s10.html
from which
"FPSO" (short for Floating Product, Storage and Offtake) means a ship that is:
(a) constructed or modified to accept petroleum, directly or indirectly, from a sub#8209;sea well or pipeline; and (b) capable of storing the petroleum and delivering it to another ship or pipeline; and (c) capable of modifying the petroleum while in storage on the ship to suit it for transport or to fit it for the commercial requirements of consignees; and (d) designed to be disconnected from its mooring during bad weather, operational emergencies, or for the purposes of maintenance or survey; but does not include a facility that is designed to remain permanently moored for the production life of the related petroleum field.

SeaGen at 20 pounds an hour profit is hardly enough incentive for anyone to invest. If an investor cannot get a viable rate of return they will not inject money. It also requires a current of 5kts to be viable!! It is a niche product that will not be the saviour of the world, and is not a wave energy device anyway!

Finally "who cares if they produce less energy". Everyone does. If a seabed device only produces 20% of the energy of a surface device then you need 5 times the infrastructure. That means that electricity will cost five times more! Would you pay five times the going rate for electricity?

Mathew - we may have to agree to disagree on this subject I am afraid.
getfunky
getfunky
WA
4485 posts
WA, 4485 posts
20 May 2010 3:40pm
NotWal said...

Didn't Ziggy Switkowski in his energy report for the previous government say that there was only a 25 year future for nuclear fission power production, or did I just dream it?



I recorded a debate on nooclear versus 'other' power options last year. If I recall correctly those for the Nook were optomisticly touting a 50-75 yr life (the miniscule length shocked me TBH). Those agin it were saying 25 - 50 yrs (but weighting the 25yr end of the scale).

Either way you look at it we haven't got a hell of a lot o' time to get our shizzle together for 'other' power options to come online.

For my 2c I am not completely against the nook option, and it makes decent sense right now, but I can see successive govts treading water (and allowing Joe Public to think nook is forever) until we really are up poo creek with no fall back.
maxm
maxm
NSW
864 posts
NSW, 864 posts
20 May 2010 5:45pm
getfunky said...

I recorded a debate on nooclear versus 'other' power options last year. If I recall correctly those for the Nook were optomisticly touting a 50-75 yr life (the miniscule length shocked me TBH). Those agin it were saying 25 - 50 yrs (but weighting the 25yr end of the scale)


Yeah, pretty sure the 30 year mark is what I remembered too. Could easily be wrong but that's my recollection.

Which is just about when the oil runs out. Forget coal. You have to GET it somewhere before you can burn it and without oil how do you do that?

So forget global warming. It's irrelevant. The real question is, where is our next power source?
mineral1
mineral1
WA
4564 posts
WA, 4564 posts
20 May 2010 4:11pm
getfunky said...

NotWal said...

Didn't Ziggy Switkowski in his energy report for the previous government say that there was only a 25 year future for nuclear fission power production, or did I just dream it?



I recorded a debate on nooclear versus 'other' power options last year. If I recall correctly those for the Nook were optomisticly touting a 50-75 yr life (the miniscule length shocked me TBH). Those agin it were saying 25 - 50 yrs (but weighting the 25yr end of the scale).

Either way you look at it we haven't got a hell of a lot o' time to get our shizzle together for 'other' power options to come online.

For my 2c I am not completely against the nook option, and it makes decent sense right now, but I can see successive govts treading water (and allowing Joe Public to think nook is forever) until we really are up poo creek with no fall back.

Normall hate to weigh in on these debates, however.......
Still not sure why this isn't being touted about as an alternative. And gee shucks we just happen to have a small reserve in Aus.
http://www.ga.gov.au/minerals/research/national/thorium/index.jsp
www.abc.net.au/quantum/scripts98/9820/thoriumscpt.htm
cwamit
cwamit
WA
1194 posts
WA, 1194 posts
20 May 2010 5:27pm
once a power station starts up its usually a combination of long term price contracts and short term spot market buying, most explorers (except one or two ) need a high price in long term contract prices to be feasible..

current price for uranium is 60 dollars for long term contracts and 43 dollars for the spot market. (thats 60 or 40 dollars per lb not in kg)



heres some info on uranium and cost per unit of power compared to cost per kg of uranium.

"
Current estimates of “economically recoverable” reserves apply an upper price/cost limit of $135/kg for uranium ore. This price cutoff does not sufficiently appreciate the lack of effect that ore cost has on power cost. It corresponds to a power price increase of only ~0.25 cents/kW-hr, versus today’s [Oct 2004] $40/kg ore price. Uranium sources that cost up to $500, and perhaps even ~$1000/kg (which would increase nuclear power’s cost by 1-2 cents/kW-hr) can still be economic, especially in a CO2-emission-constrained world, and/or a world where gas and oil have started to run out. Even at $1000/kg, advanced nuclear plants should be able to produce power at ~6 cents/kW-hr or less. The cost of power from post-production-peak gas or oil plants, or from coal plants with full CO2 sequestration, is likely to be higher than this. Finally, it should be noted that (as discussed later), at a uranium price of $500-1000/kg, breeder reactors become economical, and the uranium supply effectively becomes infinite"

my point is anyhow that at todays uranium price its not feasible for many explorers to become miners until long term contract prices kick up, but as stated this price increase is very small to the end user than say coal , oil or gas. the low price means there is very little investment in exploration for uranium deposits even when considering uranium is more abundant but at a lower concentrate than silver.
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
21 May 2010 3:09pm
maxm said...
Blah blah etc etc,..

So forget global warming. It's irrelevant. The real question is, where is our next power source?


At this point it appears the most logical and probable pathway is a short term (up to 100 years, or more if necessary) dependence on nuclear fission power stations and then an almost infinitely long term dependence on fusion reactors.
It would be nice to go straight into the fusion option but since there is not even one nuclear fusion reactor presently on the planet we better go for the fission option as a temporary measure.

As I have mentioned before, research in the nuclear power generation industry has suffered from major neglect over the past 40 years due to the bad press regarding the fear of a nuclear disaster of some sort.
The technology is now a long way behind where it would have been had it had a more ready acceptance.
However, even with the limited development in this field it has been estimated that this type of reactor could power the planet for around 1000 years, not by the current 3rd generation reactors in use now but by the next generation reactors which are hugely more efficient in their fuel use and with much less and more easily managed waste products.
They can also use the waste products of earlier reactors as fuel so we should be careful not to lock away these so called 'waste products' forever.

The anti nuclear groups use the current lack of general use of nuclear power generation as proof that the technology is not economically viable and they often quote the small number of nuclear power stations currently in operation as proof.
The argument is false.
The slow take up of the nuclear option is entirely due to the bad press and the cheapness of coal and oil fired power generation, combined with the almost impossible job of getting approvals to build them.
It is not the sort of environment that encoureges investors to front up with their money.

Had nuclear power generation received wider acceptance over the last 30 years we would now be generating power with almost zero emissions, and at a cost only marginally above that of coal fired power stations.
China recognises that and is now doing considerable research into cleaner and more efficient reactors.
In all probability, in twenty years time we will end up buying the technology off them when we finally recognise that we have no other option.

That is after we waste billions of dollars playing with windmills, wave power, solar power, geothermal power, tidal power and any other 'great idea' that someone can come up with to claim a research grant. They are all just forestalling the inevitable conclusion, which is;- none of them can reliably provide the rapidly increasing demand for energy.

I mentioned that the cost of nuclear power would be "marginally" higher.
The anti nuke proponents claim it would be double.
Again it is a false conclusion to the argument.
They use the fact that it costs roughly 2 cents per kilowatt hour to produce power in a coal fired power station and 4 cents in a nuclear power station.
And yes, that is double.
But, the cost of producing the power is a small proportion of what you pay at the meter box.
A more accurate assessment of the situation can be seen by saying that nuclear power would cost 2 cents more per kilowatt hour.
Thus your power charge would go from 16 cents to 18 cents per kilowatt hour.
This is a very manageable increase and well within the capabilities of the economy to absorb.
In fact here in W.A. Col has just put the price of electricity up by that much and more, just to prove the point. (maybe?)

All these other great ideas such as windmills and wave power etc, might have some application in niche or boutique markets where only a small amount of energy is required on an intermittent basis.
However, even with the best technology available, they are nowhere near up the job of providing the gigawatts of energy required for a large economy to prosper.
It is low grade energy and the devices used to extract the energy can only extract a small proportion of it.
To get meaningful power outputs you would have to cover the countryside with windmills or solar panels or wave power generators until they become as much of a problem as coal fired power stations.

Wineman
Wineman
NSW
1412 posts
NSW, 1412 posts
21 May 2010 6:46pm
pweedas said...


It would be nice to go straight into the fusion option but since there is not even one nuclear fusion reactor presently on the planet we better go for the fission option as a temporary measure.


Not exactly correct!!

You are making far too much sense..Pweedas
....so this is your serious side[}:)]

from
www.iter.org/default.aspx

ITER, currently under construction in the south of France, aims to demonstrate that fusion is the energy source of the future.

The ITER project is sited at Cadarache in the South of France. Europe will contribute almost half of the costs of its construction, while the other six Members to this joint international venture (China, India, Japan, the Republic of Korea, the Russian Federation and the USA), will contribute equally to the rest.

ITER will be the world's largest experimental fusion facility and is designed to demonstrate the scientific and technological feasibility of fusion power for energy purposes. Fusion is the process which powers the sun and the stars. When light atomic nuclei fuse together to form heavier ones, a large amount of energy is released. Fusion research is aimed at developing a prototype fusion power plant that is safe and reliable, environmentally responsible and economically viable, with abundant and widespread fuel resources.


now....let the conspiratory theorists have fun with this ....aluminium hats on, all of youse
maxm
maxm
NSW
864 posts
NSW, 864 posts
22 May 2010 12:56pm
That's a very good post, pweedas. Thanks.

I've often wondered why old nuke fuel couldn't be recycled. If it's going to "pollute the environment for thousands of years to come" (as the green groups often claim) then that just means it's got energy left in it for that long. That's energy we could potentially exploit for that length of time.

Australia was at the forefront of research way back when the field was new. It's a shame we've let the lead slip.
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