aluminium-carbon exopy layup

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nick0
nick0
NSW
510 posts
NSW, 510 posts
22 Jun 2010 8:33am
under what conditions will a wet layup of carbon react with aluminium..?
in the idear of rapping a alli boom with carbom ti stiffen it .. who cares how much it will weight
cRAZY Canuk
cRAZY Canuk
NSW
2528 posts
NSW, 2528 posts
22 Jun 2010 9:11am
nick0 said...

under what conditions will a wet layup of carbon react with aluminium..?


It shouldn't react while your laying it up. What you might run into is galvanic corosion down the line you can fix that by doing a light vail of e-glass before the carbon, having said that if you rinse it and make sure it dries you should be right.

nick0 said...


in the idear of rapping a alli boom with carbom ti stiffen it .. who cares how much it will weight


With the amount of coin your going to drop on resin and carbon is it easier to find a used boom?

A lot of the "carbon" bike seat posts used to be (and some still are) a metal tube with carbon wrapped around them.
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
22 Jun 2010 9:38am
nick0 said...

under what conditions will a wet layup of carbon react with aluminium..?
in the idear of rapping a alli boom with carbom ti stiffen it .. who cares how much it will weight


When you work out how to make an invincible boom...let me know? I'm down about 4 so far...& still counting!

(or I could just shed some fat!)
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23695 posts
WA, 23695 posts
22 Jun 2010 9:47am
Nick

Resins will not laminate to aluminium well. It will stick, but the strength of the bond is much less than say epoxy/carbon laminate cured and then more epoxy/carbon laminated on top of it. I think it is the oxide layer that stuffs it.

Aluminium needs a good sanding followed by treating with an etching solution.
From memory it is sulfuric acid, potassium chromate or dichromate and some other stuff - possibly expensive to go and buy all the stuff you need just to make a little bit.
I have it somewhere in the Ciba-Geigy data sheets I have for Araldite resins but I'd never find it (just moved house) so perhaps Google and / or the Ciba-Geigy & West Systems websites.
maybe that kind of searching may identify an off the shelf etching solution for you?
Danger Mouse
Danger Mouse
WA
592 posts
WA, 592 posts
22 Jun 2010 10:11am
Mark _australia said...

Nick

Resins will not laminate to aluminium well. It will stick, but the strength of the bond is much less than say epoxy/carbon laminate cured and then more epoxy/carbon laminated on top of it. I think it is the oxide layer that stuffs it.

Aluminium needs a good sanding followed by treating with an etching solution.
From memory it is sulfuric acid, potassium chromate or dichromate and some other stuff - possibly expensive to go and buy all the stuff you need just to make a little bit.
I have it somewhere in the Ciba-Geigy data sheets I have for Araldite resins but I'd never find it (just moved house) so perhaps Google and / or the Ciba-Geigy & West Systems websites.
maybe that kind of searching may identify an off the shelf etching solution for you?


Would sanding the aluminium with a course grit sanding disc/paper not fix both issues at the some time as it would remove any oxide layer that was present too?

D
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
22 Jun 2010 10:18am
I would have thought so.
elmo
elmo
WA
8894 posts
WA, 8894 posts
22 Jun 2010 10:20am
A point maybe not considered besides all the above is the increase in boom diameter

A single wrap will add ~1mm to the diameter.

Go the carbon, the boom will only be as strong as it's weakest part which will then be the boom head
cRAZY Canuk
cRAZY Canuk
NSW
2528 posts
NSW, 2528 posts
22 Jun 2010 3:36pm
D_Meredith79 said...

Mark _australia said...

Nick

Resins will not laminate to aluminium well. It will stick, but the strength of the bond is much less than say epoxy/carbon laminate cured and then more epoxy/carbon laminated on top of it. I think it is the oxide layer that stuffs it.

Aluminium needs a good sanding followed by treating with an etching solution.
From memory it is sulfuric acid, potassium chromate or dichromate and some other stuff - possibly expensive to go and buy all the stuff you need just to make a little bit.
I have it somewhere in the Ciba-Geigy data sheets I have for Araldite resins but I'd never find it (just moved house) so perhaps Google and / or the Ciba-Geigy & West Systems websites.
maybe that kind of searching may identify an off the shelf etching solution for you?


Would sanding the aluminium with a course grit sanding disc/paper not fix both issues at the some time as it would remove any oxide layer that was present too?

D


You still need to degrease it which generally involves a pretty nasty chemical - you might be able to use the same stuff the wash alum with before they paint it...
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
22 Jun 2010 2:13pm
Wax and grease remover (prepsol DULUX) will do the job
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
22 Jun 2010 2:40pm
D_Meredith79 said...

Mark _australia said...

Nick

Resins will not laminate to aluminium well. It will stick, but the strength of the bond is much less than say epoxy/carbon laminate cured and then more epoxy/carbon laminated on top of it. I think it is the oxide layer that stuffs it.

Aluminium needs a good sanding followed by treating with an etching solution.
From memory it is sulfuric acid, potassium chromate or dichromate and some other stuff - possibly expensive to go and buy all the stuff you need just to make a little bit.
I have it somewhere in the Ciba-Geigy data sheets I have for Araldite resins but I'd never find it (just moved house) so perhaps Google and / or the Ciba-Geigy & West Systems websites.
maybe that kind of searching may identify an off the shelf etching solution for you?


Would sanding the aluminium with a course grit sanding disc/paper not fix both issues at the some time as it would remove any oxide layer that was present too?

D


Yes and no.
It will remove the old oxide layer but aluminium is highly reactive in air and instantly reoxidises.
It is the thin oxide layer that protects aluminium and makes it non reactive in air.
If you continuously remove that, it reacts exactly as you would expect from its position on the periodic table. i.e. it self destructs in a few minutes.

So the problem is not how to get the oxide layer off the aluminium. It is how do you treat the aluminium oxide to make something stick to it.
I have previously used alodine for this as a base for paint but I don't know if it would work for what you want to do.
It's also poison so if you use it, be careful.
thommo 000
thommo 000
1670 posts
1670 posts
22 Jun 2010 2:43pm
coca cola should do the trick.
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
22 Jun 2010 5:21pm
Yeah, but that's poison too, so be careful !
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
22 Jun 2010 6:53pm
nick0 said...

under what conditions will a wet layup of carbon react with aluminium..?
in the idear of rapping a alli boom with carbom ti stiffen it .. who cares how much it will weight


Instead of adding to the outside... try some expanding foam on the inside of the boom, Foam is often used on masts, tubes, car bumpers, and boats / canoes to make them stiffer.
It will also add flotation for the boom

cRAZY Canuk
cRAZY Canuk
NSW
2528 posts
NSW, 2528 posts
22 Jun 2010 7:31pm
^ a lot of those 2 part expanding foams absorb and trap water in them.....

If you have a compressor and you want to get tricky an inflated bladder would be a better option.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
22 Jun 2010 7:44pm
cRAZY Canuk said...

^ a lot of those 2 part expanding foams absorb and trap water in them.....


Only if the outer skin is broken and then immersed in water for extended periods of time... This shouldn't be a problem with a boom.
Isn't this the same sort of foam that surfboards are made from?

Rattlehead
Rattlehead
QLD
555 posts
QLD, 555 posts
22 Jun 2010 8:54pm
have you priced carbon and epoxy lately ??
the stuff is as dear as poison ,also as you mentioned you will be adding a heap of weight even though your using carbon and epoxy then you got the problem of the epoxy keying to the alloy (should be ok if you rough it up) then you got to replace the grip!!

I'd consider the option below............

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/High-Quality-Windsurfing-Carbon-Wave-boom-140-190-/260534315864?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Sport_Surfing&hash=item3ca90e2b58

cgi.ebay.com.au/High-Quality-Windsurfing-Carbon-Wave-boom-140-200-used-/260549159368?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Sport_Surfing&hash=item3ca9f0a9c8
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
22 Jun 2010 7:25pm
Gizmo said...


Instead of adding to the outside... try some expanding foam on the inside of the boom, Foam is often used on masts, tubes, car bumpers, and boats / canoes to make them stiffer.
It will also add flotation for the boom



Trouble is, the back half of the boom has to slide into the front half, so that it can be adjusted.
And normally the back half is full of holes for the adjusting pins.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
22 Jun 2010 9:18pm
decrepit said
Trouble is, the back half of the boom has to slide into the front half, so that it can be adjusted.
And normally the back half is full of holes for the adjusting pins.


Bugga
cRAZY Canuk
cRAZY Canuk
NSW
2528 posts
NSW, 2528 posts
23 Jun 2010 10:12am
Gizmo said...

cRAZY Canuk said...

^ a lot of those 2 part expanding foams absorb and trap water in them.....


Only if the outer skin is broken and then immersed in water for extended periods of time... This shouldn't be a problem with a boom.
Isn't this the same sort of foam that surfboards are made from?




Depending on what you get it is and it isn't, surfboard cores absorb water.

It doesn't need to be immersed just has to be there. I'm looking at a longer period mind you - when I worked for the yacht riggers one of my jobs was removing pour in foam from masts and booms, it sucked was full of water and heavy. I wouldn't recomend it.
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
23 Jun 2010 9:29pm
could you get a carbon boom and add some more carbon?
would the weight increase be that much?
nick0
nick0
NSW
510 posts
NSW, 510 posts
24 Jun 2010 5:43pm
landyacht said...

could you get a carbon boom and add some more carbon?
would the weight increase be that much?


i wosnt wondering bout the stiffness of a carbom boom just wondering if a carbom/allyboom combo would be cheaper than the cost of a new carbom one
cRAZY Canuk
cRAZY Canuk
NSW
2528 posts
NSW, 2528 posts
24 Jun 2010 6:11pm
nick0 said...

landyacht said...

could you get a carbon boom and add some more carbon?
would the weight increase be that much?


i wosnt wondering bout the stiffness of a carbom boom just wondering if a carbom/allyboom combo would be cheaper than the cost of a new carbom one


Depends on how you value your time, cost of materials, and how much a new boom is if it all goes cactus.
brad1
brad1
QLD
232 posts
QLD, 232 posts
24 Jun 2010 6:29pm
OK. this is my industry.
Don't waste your time and money.
You can abrade the surface with the resin, so instead of using water to sand you use resin. ie no oxidation ( use gloves). You can get epoxies that are formulated to bond to metal but they are typicaly adhesives rather than laminating resins. Yes glass veil to insulate for galvanic reaction. But honestly you are just wasting your time. Any core you try to put inside the ali tube will have no effect whatsoever. If you're not carefull the laminate will be full of voids with high resin content.
You can't just put together material with different modulii. Putting ali and carbon together is similar to putting steel and bungy together as an example......attach a piece of bungy to a strip of steel, now pull some tension on it...which one's doing the work?
It will stiffen the boom to an extent, but the advantage you'll get of laminating in the back shed just won't do the carbon justice.
I could go on and on but you're better of buying a carbon boom.
Mr. No-one
Mr. No-one
WA
921 posts
WA, 921 posts
26 Jun 2010 11:25pm
I thought about doing it but never got around to it. If I did I'd use a 28 mm boom, sand it with 80 grit, wipe clean with acetone and give it a clear coat of epoxy. Cut a 300 mm strip of 6 oz carbon the length of th boom arm with 10 mm masking tape half on the long edge.
Pre wet the carbon on a bench on thin plastic sheet but only up to the masking tape. Lift the whole sheet up and stick edge of tape to the boom arm and start wraping it firmly around it peeling the plastic backing sheet off as you go and rolling it. Once done and on tight I'd start wraping it with electrical tape from the middle to the ends, with this style each layer will only be 0.5 mm thick with a high carbon to resin ratio and wouldn't be much room for water to get in though some sika around any openings before glassing would make sure of it.
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