debt recovery

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ockanui
ockanui
VIC
1321 posts
VIC, 1321 posts
14 Mar 2013 2:14pm
I have a particular client with whom has become totally unreasonable with the notion of me getting paid for a recently completed, complex and well constructed building job.
the clients have, "dangled the carrot" with regard to trying to coax further works in order for me to get paid, I have complied 4 times in good faith and each time a change of mind has been experienced from the clients, I have tried reason, both the Architect and the project manager have tried to reason and are on my side whole heartedly.
The basic premise of business, you do work and you get paid for that, simple philosophy combined with the notion of moral and ethical behavior, which I believe the boundaries have been broken by the client.
Solicitor is rubbing his hands with glee, no one wins and the expenses are high.

I have spoken with a debt collection agency, I am sure, legally or otherwise, intimidation by name is what may guarantee success, but still unknown and still costly but I am a point where extreme attitude needs to be met head on, I have always believed, somewhat naively, that good law abiding lifestyle is one to be cherished and nurtured and I have followed that notion.

What are the pitfalls? has anyone had experiences to share before I choose the path to reclaim both financial and emotional well being.

I am at witts end and severely depressed....
Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
14 Mar 2013 2:56pm
Hi,

my dad was in the construction industry and I know exactly what you are going through. Some people are absolute bastards and take advantage of anyone they can. They think a good deal is one where the other party is screwed and killed.

The only advice I can give is to seek legal advice. Yes it will cost but unless you are prepared to go around and break kneecaps its the only thing you can do. You can't appeal to their sense of fairness as they don't have it.

If you really don't want a solicitor to represent you, perhaps there is a claims court where you might be able to represent yourself.




Torch
Torch
WA
521 posts
WA, 521 posts
14 Mar 2013 11:59am
go and pull the job down.

I had it done to me, so I started pull out what I had installed until they quickly changed there attitude.
mineral1
mineral1
WA
4564 posts
WA, 4564 posts
14 Mar 2013 12:03pm
Ask him if he knows what sound a Milwaukie tractor makes, possibly 3 or 4 at one time, and particularly around 4am. Worked in a flash for a chap I know, was paid up in full 24 hours later. [}:)]
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
14 Mar 2013 4:07pm
^^^ When I owned a joinery business, this used to happen regularly - especially with clients that provided continual work - it seems they had the opinion that if they keep providing work - they don't need to pay! I heard of an Adelaide joinery that demanded full payment before leaving the job - if not, they would dismantle the kitchen (using any means possible), load it on their truck & drive off - apparently happened a few times, although the threat used to ensure quick payment.

I've recently began self-employment again! (idiot! I know), but this time have all payments noted and staged in the fee proposal/contract set so that the next stage (I work in stages - building design), cannot be commenced until stage payment & a signed authorisation is delivered to me - no matter who the client is. The final drawings don't get released until full payment is made also.

In saying this, I'm extremely busy with clients that expect to pay for a professional service - this means payment methods laid out in front in detail & constant contact/communication throughout the process and a follow-up service.

If all else fails - 'Pruska' debt recovery are pretty good. Good luck with it, as you said - you deserve to be paid for your work!
Windy-M8
Windy-M8
QLD
14 posts
QLD, 14 posts
14 Mar 2013 3:40pm
1 thing - do not do anything which gives them a legal leg to stand on.....and document / diarise all your efforts to get paid..

U choose -
1) personal service approach....
but way less stress is 3rd party
2) Legal service approach.... (Before U do this check how much equity they have in the site as U would aim for full cost recovery including legals - if v.low refer below re-mortgager).
(Debt recovery often means profit loss using agency due to costs - at least legal approach cost get awarded in this sort of case.)

Before U go too much further - get a court order over the property to ban sale / transfer of ownership if it is not clear.
U can also find out whether property is mortgaged (assuming it is a house / domestic property / office construct) and approach lender as they have a vested interest in the value of the property remaining intact.

Best of with good & speedy resolution.

Cheers
Rick
Pitbull
Pitbull
WA
1267 posts
WA, 1267 posts
14 Mar 2013 5:05pm
IMO the best thing to do is not touch anything on site as it is illeagal. You will need to send a letter giving them the oppotrunity to pay otherwise it will be escalated to the magistrates court. From there just follow the process and it may end up that you summons them to court where they are given a court order to pay otherwise they could go to jail.
Little Jon
Little Jon
NSW
2115 posts
NSW, 2115 posts
14 Mar 2013 8:17pm
cut off his hand, good old arab justice
paddymac
paddymac
WA
943 posts
WA, 943 posts
14 Mar 2013 5:23pm
Most states have small claims courts to hear these things. They aim to make legal costs as low as possible. Have a look at

www.vcat.vic.gov.au/get-started/building-and-construction

Domestic building disputes between home owners, builders, sub-contractors, architects, engineers and other building practitioners.
the gibbo
the gibbo
WA
776 posts
WA, 776 posts
14 Mar 2013 5:38pm
Feel for you ! It is very stressful.

I am a builder in WA and this happened to us not long ago. We are members of the Master Builders Assoc. we approached them quickly and they appointed a an independent adjudicator(this was under the Construction Contracts Act 2004 WA).

Under this system the client had 14 days to respond to the claim and then the adjudicator made a decision(legally binding) it was awarded to us and client had 5 days to pay up, which they did. Cost was $1100 each party, to get back $24k. Bear in mind we had a signed contract and all proper documentation, and job was perfect.
Not sure of the system in Vic, but the key is act really quickly, i believe this has to be applied for within 21 days of non payment.

Approach your area Housing Industry Association or MBA even if you are not a member they should be able to help, as they deal with all the time.
Debt recovery business is the last resort they will not give all the angles of approach as they have vested interest in doing the recovery themselves.

Above all don't let the bastards beat you, stay honest, ethical, hope it works out for you mate. Let us know. I hate these pricks. If you paid for the materials and it is something that can be taken out, you still legally own it till its been paid for as far as i am aware, the problem arises that you will be trespassing to get it.

I am interested to know, did you have a written contract(verbal is legal, espec. if there are witnesses) ?
Did the project manager or architect engage your service ?
Have they made any payment at all and have you issued invoices, overdue notices ?
You can also take caveat out on the property, which will stop them selling etc depends how much they owe you i guess.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23685 posts
WA, 23685 posts
14 Mar 2013 5:45pm
I feel for you blokes who are self employed this sh!t must drive u crazy. I can't see how people can do this, if their employer didn't pay them for a couple of days they'd get shirty real quick


I go with paddymac on this
ockanui
ockanui
VIC
1321 posts
VIC, 1321 posts
14 Mar 2013 9:41pm
yes thanks blokes, the client is wealthy, he has a two digit numberplate on his top of the range two door Merc and just bought 9 large TV's for his new multi million dollar beach house at Lorne... he is old though
Gibbo, there is a contract,all signed of variations, there is a project manager who is employed by them to manage the architect who in turn I work with to achieve the construction. The project is perfectly constructed and presented in all aspects... anally perfect. The clients know they are in breach of contract, the project manager and architect are about to resign there positions due to the irrational behavior of the surgeon, he is using his stealth to coerce and intimidate, he will not win.. both the two blokes resigning will provide an email trail.
I have learnt over the years also to, as they say in legal circles, write correspondence that is " self serving" to your needs and views so paint a picture that is entirely to your benefit depicting the facts as you see it, its good practice.I have such emails through the entire project...
I have been completely flawed by their attitude as it is based entirely on their position of wealth, power and greed.
I still have the keys to the property, I have changed the locks, screwed windows closed,changed the alarm code and have all the neighbors onside....
I am slowly gathering myself, to take on the might and power but so as long as I have the blood flowing through my body being a descendant of the mighty Ned Kelly, I will not rest until I win.... albeit without the armory..
Raising my issue is also about making people aware of the pitfalls in construction whether you are a consumer or in construction the main key is communication and have some flexibility in outcome....its a ****in painful and unnecesary process let alone a **** of an Industry to be involved in...
DunkO
DunkO
NSW
1150 posts
NSW, 1150 posts
14 Mar 2013 9:50pm
Torch said...
go and pull the job down.

I had it done to me, so I started pull out what I had installed until they quickly changed there attitude.


That is totally against the law and will put you in the wrong legally, morally yes I agree.
adolf
adolf
1862 posts
1862 posts
14 Mar 2013 8:06pm
ockanui said...
I still have the keys to the property, I have changed the locks, screwed windows closed,changed the alarm code and have all the neighbors onside....


I would have thought this would be enough to force communication? The lawyer track would most likely prolong the agony. I hope you can bring it to a head soon and move on from it - I feel for you.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
14 Mar 2013 8:53pm
ockanui said...
...but so as long as I have the blood flowing through my body being a descendant of the mighty Ned Kelly, I will not rest until I win.... albeit without the armory..


Completely off topic... but really?

(the) Ned Kelly had children? (Unless you are talking about an unrelated Grandpa Ned Kelly, that never rode through Glenrowan)

'Mighty'? Wasn't he just a thief that wore a helmet?

On topic, why does it seem that the very wealthy have a different approach to paying people?
sn
sn
WA
2775 posts
sn sn
WA, 2775 posts
14 Mar 2013 11:55pm
Over all the years that I did contract work for farmers, builders, councils, owner builders etc- not once did I have to ask for my money.
My invoices were always paid on time- if not early.

But that might have been due to the type of work I was doing for them

All the best mate- you are in the right and I hope it all works out for you.

Caveat + move in to the place yourself until you are paid in full, sounds like the way to go

Stephen
actiomax
actiomax
NSW
1576 posts
NSW, 1576 posts
15 Mar 2013 8:21am
I think this happens to every builder at some stage it sh£ts me to tears . Try the department of fair trading they are also working for builders against clients who wont pay not just customers & its free & they make a court order for payment.
I have thought about a web site for tradesmen that list bad customers .I think its fair as there are websites listing tradesmen . I have done jobs that its only after when you dont get paid you find out your on a list of people who dont get paid & if you could look up these sort of people you wouldnt work there or you get the money up front before starting & its the only way to stop these sort of people.That said there are some people who wouldnt want to run into me in a dark ally thats for sure . Mate its never a pensioner or low income type person thats saved for the job its allways sum rich smug bastard that thinks there better than you so they dont have to pay . Change your future invoice so it states that all invoices must be paid in 7 days or interst will kick in at 23% every day over 7 days then if it does drag out you get paid for the stuffing around .
Poida
Poida
WA
1922 posts
WA, 1922 posts
15 Mar 2013 9:57am
you have to give him written notice that he is in breach and give him 7 days to rectify. keep it short and to the point.
construction contracts act might help same as what paddymac said
then maybe a bluey - court order
maybe petition to wind up his company
caveats on properties may create more problems as he may counter sue you for delays in using his building

I got similar, but delayed too long in taking action, a year later im taking action
the construction contracts act you have to act within 60 days
hamburglar
hamburglar
ACT
2174 posts
ACT, 2174 posts
15 Mar 2013 2:29pm
Surgeon hey, perhaps remind him there's not much work on for a surgeon with 10 broken fingers!

Then when and if you get your money or not Burn the c0cks house down

On the reverse side, had a 2 story 9×10m prefab shed built just before Christmas, only needed gutters, downpipes and windows fitted . Payed final payment so his worker's could get paid, and took him 4 months to come back and finish the job.

Only after enquiries to fair work Aust and being a pain in the a$$ ,all diplomaticly, to the shed mob, all work was completed . After he finished i let him know what an @ss hole he is .

grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
15 Mar 2013 12:13pm
Today Tonight or A Current Affair?????
felixdcat
felixdcat
WA
3519 posts
WA, 3519 posts
15 Mar 2013 12:39pm
I had a info session at work about the new small claim rules (not sure about the proper name) the legal person told us to be very vigilant about received invoices. If a contractor send me a $100k for a project that was costed $10k and i assume it to be a mistake and do not follow up IN WRITTING after 30 days I (my employer) becomes liable for the $100k.
Maybe try to send him another invoice for let say100X the value and wait and laugh?????? [}:)]
NoBS
NoBS
WA
908 posts
WA, 908 posts
15 Mar 2013 1:31pm
You have 4 available options:

Today Tonight
Hells Angels - violence
Take your costs out on his personal property (discreetly)
Confront him with legal action in the court
saltiest1
saltiest1
NSW
2575 posts
NSW, 2575 posts
16 Mar 2013 12:45am
I reckon pm all of us his details, we call his offiice, and let him think that the world knows he's a tight pr1#k.
deejay8204
deejay8204
QLD
557 posts
QLD, 557 posts
16 Mar 2013 9:15am
Send a letter in writing of your intentions to add recovery costs and interest to the final bill if it is not paid in full within 5 business days.

If the bill is not paid in full in that time then it will be passes over to a recovery agent and then to court proceedings if still not recovered.

This is what all the BIG companies do now, so you can too.

Good Luck and fight hard.
the gibbo
the gibbo
WA
776 posts
WA, 776 posts
16 Mar 2013 8:07am
Seems like the rich clients are always the worst in our experience. The poor ones understand the value of money and how it affects ordinary peoples lives, they pay generally.

Occy i am glad you have the paperwork in place, you will get your money in the end.

Send him a poo in post it pack for next little while and tell all others site to do the same, petty i know but at least when he opens his mail he can smell the **** he's created.
Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
16 Mar 2013 4:38pm
Give me a call.
I'm a Quantity Surveyor, and I can give you a few contract tips.
Usually locking them out works... Which you have done...
Is there a chance that they have run out of money?
Bad investments elsewhere...?

Give me a brief of the situation, and I'll get you some free preliminary advice from my "contracts and disputes" colleagues.

PS - I broke a board today. ... The only positive is that it is effectively $1k lost, and I'm guessing your problem has much bigger consequences...
WallZie
WallZie
WA
87 posts
WA, 87 posts
16 Mar 2013 11:06pm
the gibbo said...
Seems like the rich clients are always the worst in our experience. The poor ones understand the value of money and how it affects ordinary peoples lives, they pay generally.

Occy i am glad you have the paperwork in place, you will get your money in the end.

Send him a poo in post it pack for next little while and tell all others site to do the same, petty i know but at least when he opens his mail he can smell the **** he's created.


I agree. I'm a subcontractor usually worked for small builders. Never had a problem with payments. In the Last 3 years I subcontracted to 3 large building company's. I employed 10 workers over that period. My wages and overheads were significant. Trying to be paid on time was like getting blood out of a stone. At the end of the contracts there were always problems / disputes with variations etc. I'm still waiting on retention. No defects. They say they are waiting on confirmation from the client and I'll be paid this month...... Next month.......Next month..... I am Freakin over it![}:)].

I always paid my bills/ paid my workers. Kept my standards high. Never caused delays. All I got was hassle after hassle. Still waiting for 30 odd K.... I can make similar coin working with a small crew for small builders.

Anyways I feel your pain...Rant over....
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