maths puzzle

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decrepit
decrepit
WA
12884 posts
WA, 12884 posts
6 Oct 2011 7:45pm
My dear old Mum has managed to lock her self out a few times now, so we've bought a combination lock key safe, so she can keep a key outside.

Here's the problem, the key safe has 10 digits 1-0, the instructions recommend using a 4 digit number.
OK I think that's close to 10,000 combinations, not much chance of cracking that accidentally.

But I read further, and you can only use each number once, hmm cuts the combos down but not too much.

Then I figure out there's no sequence built in, it doesn't matter what order the 4 numbers are pressed, the lock will open.
As far as I can work out this brings the available different combos of 4 digits down to 84!!!!!!!

It looks like using just 2 digits increases this to 165 combos.

Am I right here?
Can anybody do a quick calc of available combos with different amount of digits used?

At the moment I'm thinking of going with 5 because anybody trying to crack it will assume 4 have been used.
GPA
GPA
WA
2529 posts
GPA GPA
WA, 2529 posts
6 Oct 2011 7:48pm
decrepit said...

At the moment I'm thinking of going with 5 because anybody trying to crack it will assume 4 have been used.


Based on the same logic - we use 3 digits of our available 4 digit combo... would be thieves will set the thing off before they work that out...
Ian K
Ian K
WA
4169 posts
WA, 4169 posts
6 Oct 2011 8:23pm
It looks like the old classic year 12 combinations and permutations problem.

If my memory is correct, it's a little while ago, to pick 4 digits from 10 with order not important you'd use the formula.

10!/(6! * 4!) = (10*9*8*7)/(4*3*2*1) = 210 combinations.

picking only 2 digits has less combinations, (10*9)/(2*1) = 45
speller
speller
QLD
131 posts
QLD, 131 posts
6 Oct 2011 10:25pm
The combinations are:
2 digits - 45
4 digits - 210
5 digits - 252 (which is the max by the way)
6 digits - 210

maths nerd
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12884 posts
WA, 12884 posts
6 Oct 2011 8:58pm
Thanks guys, don't know how I got 165 for 2, must be getting old and senile!!!!

All I need now is a 5 digit number my Mum can remember!!
saltiest1
saltiest1
NSW
2574 posts
NSW, 2574 posts
7 Oct 2011 1:01am
get an electronic lock with remote.
saltiest1
saltiest1
NSW
2574 posts
NSW, 2574 posts
7 Oct 2011 1:02am
DUDE
DUDE
NSW
1132 posts
NSW, 1132 posts
7 Oct 2011 1:07am
1 Hammer
dirtyharry
dirtyharry
WA
444 posts
WA, 444 posts
6 Oct 2011 10:15pm
speller said...

The combinations are:
2 digits - 45
4 digits - 210
5 digits - 252 (which is the max by the way)
6 digits - 210

maths nerd


You've got me. Why is there less combinations of 6 digits than there is for 5?
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
6 Oct 2011 11:50pm
dirtyharry said...

speller said...

The combinations are:
2 digits - 45
4 digits - 210
5 digits - 252 (which is the max by the way)
6 digits - 210

maths nerd


You've got me. Why is there less combinations of 6 digits than there is for 5?



To understand this it might be useful to take things to the extreme -- pretend you have a 10 digit number.

That would have many combinations, you might think?

Well actually no, because 0123456789 will open the lock, and so will 9876543210.
So if you used a ten digit combination you could type in anything and it would still open the lock, because all digits are 'chosen'.

So a 0 digit combination is about the same as a 10 digit combination (only one solution).

Likewise a 1 digit combination (only one number chosen) will be about the same as a 9 digit combination (only one number not chosen) -- both of these have 10 solutions.

You can then work your way towards the middle of the range, proving that 5 numbers gives you the most secure combination.
dirtyharry
dirtyharry
WA
444 posts
WA, 444 posts
7 Oct 2011 8:19am
^ ah thanks, that makes sense. I wasn't considering the effect of the "in any order" part (which is actually a pretty bloody stupid way to make a combination lock!).
GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
7 Oct 2011 8:04pm
"maths solution"

lotofwind
lotofwind
NSW
6451 posts
NSW, 6451 posts
7 Oct 2011 8:16pm
Spare key under the matt.

No one ever looks there.
Woodo
Woodo
WA
792 posts
WA, 792 posts
7 Oct 2011 5:53pm
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