In the wake of recent and past news of kite accidents, I thought it could be relevant to have some discussion about the safety of C-Kites vs. Bow/SLEs (or any version of a kite with bar-release de-power).

I find that as the sport continues to grow, and more people are getting into it, the used kite market is becoming more and more saturated with all kinds of different kites for people new to the sport to choose from, and they can get confused about what to buy, often lured by the cheapest (but certainly not safest) option.

In the past 3 weeks, I have met 3 new kiters, who have purchased used C-kites as their first kites, because they could pick them up so cheaply. All three of these kiters had already taken lessons, and all three of them were surprised when I told them about the differences in safety between the C-kites they bought (for around $200 each) and newer de-power Bow/SLE kites - they had not been given any, or at least did not remember getting any, encouragement from their instructors to buy a safer, de-power Bow/SLE kite.

Therefore, I ask: Do we, as a kite-surfing community, think we have a responsibility to educate people, interested in the sport, and those just getting into it, about the vast improvement in safety of the newer model (post-2006) Bow/SLE over older style C-kites?

I think the topic should be broached during lessons. But, at the end of the day, it is the individuals responsibility to ensure he/she knows what they are getting themselves into. I spent a lot of time looking at kite company websites, researching and talking to a couple of dealers about what I should buy.

I dont think there would be many shops around that would even bother selling 2nd hand pre 2006 kites now, and if they did, I'm sure they wouldn't sell it to a noob. Its just bad for business really.

However, if I was at the beach, and I saw a noob with an old 4 line C kite who clearly looked like they were going to get their @rse handed to them, I would definitely give them 5 minutes of my time. (And I have) Many of them are guys who bought the gear ages ago and left it in the garage for a few years before realising they should give it a go again.

Same goes for anyone who asks me a question while I am setting up/hanging out.

Its a fine line I guess. Most people will be appreciative of your help and open-ness. A few will grunt a few words and go back to beaning themselves. Its hard though, what would you do if someone walked up to you and said you have just wasted your money on a piece of obsolete poo, I think you would probably be annoyed at first but probably would perservere until you had the cash to get better gear.

So, I guess a good summary is - it's the individual's responsibility to know what they are getting into (equipment and risks) and the collective's responsibility to ensure that the newer guys don't go taking risks that lead to people getting hurt or access being banned, thereby spoling it for everyone.

Kitehard- I would agree with that too. Its a symptom of a consumerist society man... People feel they will do so much better with the latest gear rather than holding on to what they have for a few seasons and then binning it because it's blown out... Even if it makes no real difference to their performance on the water!!!

A wise man said to me once the high performance kites only make a difference to the top 5% of kiters out there so don't think you need to buy a new kite every season to improve...

having been kiting for 5 years I learnt on and then flew c kites for 4 years with not a lot of problems, except walking down/back up the beach being sometimes overpowered if the wind had picked up. I then changed to sle kites and now would not fly anything else. Just for the safety on the beach, As my local beach is a mass of oyster shells which does the body no good when being dragged across them. I dont think that newbees using c kites is a real problem, most people that I know learnt on them, But it is worth telling them the advantages of bow/ sle kites have over c kites for the safety aspect as they probably learnt on a bow/sle. If anybody asks me for advice I always recomened a Sle, normally best brand, But the instructors should explain the difference to the newbees during the lessons as after all its all down to safety on the beach which should be a major part of learning to kite. trouble is it all comes down to money if you can only afford a cheap c kite thats what your gona get.

no one mentioned or compared the newer C kites... i thought the new C kites were big improvement in terms of depower...
so what are the differences between new C's and SLEs then?

liqiud force spectrum 2 05/06 4 line kite (12m) - bought for 220 bucks thinking it would compliment my 10m naish boxer as second lower wind kite. it will now adorn my living room as a cubby to play in..nice too look at but peice of **** to fly let alone ride..Love my Boxer..

Kitehard said...

Hey peeps,

The biggest problem is not the shops, but the general kiters.

Yeah mate these 2002 model Naish ARX Kites are awesome beginner kites. Super stable, easy relaunch, perfect for beginning.

A few shops do sell any old crap to beginners with no remorse or conscience, but these make up a small percentage of the dodgy kites sold weekly by the general kiting population.

Good winds,

Can't let that one go by.

When I was starting out a young salesman in a well known kite and pole shop tried to to sell me a second hand C kite. He already knew I was an absolute beginner. When I asked him if one of these older kites might be more difficult to learn on he reassured me that they would be fine. Unfortunately for him I had already done a bit of looking on the web, discovered Seabreeze and at least had a bit of info to work with. This experience fairly pissed me off.

Needless to say I've never been back to that shop.

I agree with Lost
" it's the individual's responsibility to know what they are getting into (equipment and risks) and the collective's responsibility to ensure that the newer guys don't go taking risks that lead to people getting hurt or access being banned, thereby spoling it for everyone."

What happened to newbies pre bow and sle?

We all learnt on c kites and survived. It can be done. I agree that sle is the preferred mode of entry into this sport, but ebay and the second hand market is always gonna provide cheap c kite kits for unsuspecting newbies.

The key is the right instruction. Instructors should be educating their students on the benefits of sle's but also provide info on c kites.(and lessons on c kites if thats what the student is gonna buy). I always kept a 5m fuel on hand for these students.

Emphasis to newbies should be 'GET LESSONS' regardless of kit.

Too many newbies are trying to teach themselves or venturing into expert only locations on so called 100% depower kites. Standers-by can still be hammered by a bow kite.

I have seen plenty of near death experiences of newbies thinking they can get out of trouble purely by letting go of the bar. SLE's can lull you into a false sense of security. A 12m SLE will still spank you in 40knot gusts even when you let go of the bar.

Maybe there's a lack of instructors around who have actually ridden a c kite?

Without being nasty, I have heard very mixed reviews of the levels of instruction received in Vic. They range from outstanding to absolutely horrific so I won't point fingers at the guilty parties. Unfortunately, I think there are some instructors who will always do the bare minimum to keep their jobs or customers happy, and unfortunately, the rest of the instructors look bad because of it.

I think the concept of instruction is not just about providing instruction on how to kite or the equipment you're learning on, but to provide instruction on how they can best equip themselves to enter a sport and thats where equipment instruction should be aimed. My wife's instruction was good, but her equipment instruction was aimed more at what brand she should buy, than what type of kite she should buy. She came out of her instruction telling me that my kites (07/08 bow/sle kites) weren't good enough and she would need to buy new ones. I understand instructors have a certain level of equipment loyalty because their income comes from there, but you are doing no favours to your customer by telling them to buy Cabrinha or Naish or whatever brand you support. Tell them what type of kite to buy and inform with enough credibility that they will follow your advice!

As I said before, its not to say all instructors are evil. I've seen a lot of positive actions from the instructors in St Kilda as well, for example, I've Chris from Kite Republic go out of his way move some dangerous beginners trying to learn on a 15m C kite in a gusty SE at St Kilda, and that was to try get them away from a student learning in an opposition's school so it wasn't because he had a vested interest in doing it or he was trying to protect his own people.

Of course, instructors aren't the only guilty parties. Most people are guilty of the "new kite excitement" that occurs when you test a new kite, decide to replace your old one and then find the nearest sucker to flog your kite off at the highest possible price. Its not about lying to the poor sucker, its about what you don't tell him...sure it has 100% depower, you pull this little safety here and it flags it onto one line and you have your 100% depower. Range? Of course this has range, I once flew this 12m C kite in 35 knots (neglecting to mention it was when a squall came through and you were praying to god that if you got to the beach safely you'd join the clergy)

Then of course there is the whole newbie "I want to start this sport now" logic where between spending $500 now or $1500 next month, the $500 now is more appealing because its now. Its the same logic that sends people out with new gear and no instruction because the next available lesson is in two weeks time and they want to learn NOW!

There is a little bit of forum bullying against good instructors which stops them from talking about different gears.
When my instructor (Rob) told me that the C kite that I'm buying is not as safe as the seller was telling me I was going to change my mind but then that idiot owner of the C kite starts bullying Rob here and then things changed.

I am sorry that I didn't listen to Rob 2 years ago and I paid a big price by searching for cheap equipment and at the end I end up doing what my instructor told me at the first place.

Instructors are under pressure from both side

Kitehard said...

Hey peeps,

The biggest problem is not the shops, but the general kiters. The average punter sells his kites and upgrades each year. With the glut of kites being sold second hand every year by intermediate riders and above and more and more gear adding ever year to the second hand market, we end up with a market flooded to the eyeballs with good performance gear, which is generally unsuited to beginners.

Isn't it amazing-remember the days when there was NO used market-there was just nothing used around-the sport was just too new-now there's issues with too many used kites and new kiters not being aware of the lower margin of error involved with using the non-Bow/SLE kites.

Reading all the replies so far, it seems that there is a general consensus of the following:

1. Bow/SLE kites are definitely safer and the preferred option for learning over traditional C-Kites

2. Bow/SLE kites are still dangerous and GOOD lessons are critical to make sure that the newbie knows how to handle the kites, is well versed in the safety features, understands the variability, force, and brutality of mother nature, and practices a cautious mindset when approaching what is still, and will always be, an extreme sport

3. People have learned and will continue to learn on C-kites, and will continue to buy them because they are the cheapest option - and many people will be OK doing so if they follow point 2 above and take lessons (from a reputable school) and understand wind conditions - however, as in point 1, they are taking much bigger risks by trying to learn on a C-kite (I am guessing most major-end-up-on-the-highway-type accidents have occurred while flying C-kites)

Having learned on C-Kites myself, and gotten through it OK, I know that it can be done - but personally I scared the ** out of myself a few times when learning (and I had been a very experienced windsurfer, totally comfortable in 40+ knots of wind and 4m+ waves) - I always recommend to any learner to get onto Bow/SLE's & take lessons, if they value their lives...

getfunky said...
As for 4 line Cs - they should be converted to 5th or burnt!

You know nothing.
I've ridden 4 line C kites exclusively since I ditched my 2 lines foils back in 99.
Simple, don't try to ride above your level.
No f@#kin' problems eh!

No matter how safe you make the kites there will still be accidents. It is the person who is using the equipment that causes the accidents NOT the equipment itself.

1) Check forecast
2) Check all your gear every time you go out. (lines, pressure, harness etc)
3) Only go out as far as you are willing to SWIM back in.
4) Never go out alone

I learnt on the "dangerous" C kites which had about 3cm of de-power. Crap kites to learnt on...but they made me appreciate the dangers of the sport and to watch all the other factors that are associate with kiting, such as wind strength, gusts, weather changes, hard edging to bring kite into safe zone, not going too close to rocks, throwing the safety before the situation becomes too bad.....etc etc

Kitesurfing is more than 90% kite control. If you can control your kite in ALL situations then you should not have an accident.

seanor said...

In the wake of recent and past news of kite accidents, I thought it could be relevant to have some discussion about the safety of C-Kites vs. Bow/SLEs (or any version of a kite with bar-release de-power).

I find that as the sport continues to grow, and more people are getting into it, the used kite market is becoming more and more saturated with all kinds of different kites for people new to the sport to choose from, and they can get confused about what to buy, often lured by the cheapest (but certainly not safest) option.

In the past 3 weeks, I have met 3 new kiters, who have purchased used C-kites as their first kites, because they could pick them up so cheaply. All three of these kiters had already taken lessons, and all three of them were surprised when I told them about the differences in safety between the C-kites they bought (for around $200 each) and newer de-power Bow/SLE kites - they had not been given any, or at least did not remember getting any, encouragement from their instructors to buy a safer, de-power Bow/SLE kite.

Therefore, I ask: Do we, as a kite-surfing community, think we have a responsibility to educate people, interested in the sport, and those just getting into it, about the vast improvement in safety of the newer model (post-2006) Bow/SLE over older style C-kites?

You answered your own question by mis-informing everyone on this forum with your own opinion on the safety systems on current kites .... that Bow kites have safer safety systems than C-kites.....

Mate if it does not have a 5th line, next time your down the beach and overpowered to the point where you think you may need to engage your actual "Bow's" safety system, ie the single flagging safety line that you probably don't even have attached, Go ahead and do it for me while I engage my 5th line C-kites system and safely and walk/swim back to the beach while you battle the rolling, flipping monster on the end of your line that will not be able to re-launch without re-rigging.... Now tell me, which is safer the Bow line that goes into a death spiral ( so no-one bothers to hook the safety up) or the 5th line C-kite that has a higher wind range than the bow... and is always able to engage the safety to complete depower and relaunch in a matter of seconds if required.....

The bow has a higher wind range you say.... well tell me why the pro bow riders allways use a smaller kite when they unhook compared to the c-kiters?

SO , hat's off to your mates for buying 5th line c-kites, they must have their heads on straight and be thinking correctly and not captured by some mystical mis-informed FAD that you have become a victim of..... If you don't believe me then tell everyong why the top 10 PKRA riders aren't all on bows ?

By the way, I have been riding for 8 years, and try bow / SLE and c-kites regularly, the depower they offer hooked in is the same as any descent brand 5th line C-kite of the same year model but without the safety / comfort of the 5th line safety
.

They have their pro's and cons... but I chose a 5th line c-kite because I know that they actually offer better safety than a single flagging line bow.

What a load of crap, no amount of safety de-power or safety features will make up for common sense which so many newbies in this sport lack! In the early days we all learnt on 2 line kites with zero depower and somehow we survived! As uncle Chopper says.....